Feel free to talk in The Lobby

Open discussion

Do you want to discuss an issue that’s bothering you but can’t find the right place to post it? Or maybe you’re looking for somewhere to chat with your community pals. Well, you’ve come to the right place…

Since Which? Conversation launched six years ago, there have been almost 4,500 conversations on all sorts of consumer issues – from money to megabytes. And in those conversations, there have been close to 180,000 comments.

Of course, the real strength of Which? Convo lies in its members who contribute so much to every discussion. And one of the better aspects has been watching how this community has slowly but surely grown into such a caring one.

Our community

But, as with any community or conversation it can – and does – wander off-topic. This is perfectly natural, but it hasn’t always been possible to do so in some of the subjects we discuss due to the precisely defined nature of them.

So, at the behest of some of our community members, we’re creating a brand-new convo: The Lobby.

This will give you the space to discuss anything that takes your fancy providing, of course, that your comments remain within our community guidelines.

The Lobby will be available in exactly the same way as all the other conversations, and some of our regular community members will help with the moderation duties.

As always, any ideas spawned here in The Lobby could also be used to generate new topics for debate and discussion, so you – our community members – will be able to really help shape the direction of Which? Convo.

Rules in The Lobby

There are no rules… only kidding 😉

To ensure that this off-topic discussion remains a healthy and friendly place for you all to share your thoughts, musings and ideas, here’s a reminder of our most relevant guidelines:

  1. 1. You may go off-topic… that is the purpose of The Lobby 🙂
  2. 2. You can’t agree with everyone all of the time, but when you do disagree, please be polite and speak to others as you’d like to be spoken to.
  3. 3. Avoid ‘trolling’, or purposely provoking others into a desired emotional response. It’s just mean 😐
  4. 4. Avoid making comments that others might find offensive, threatening, abusive or defamatory.
  5. 5. Website feedback is best shared on this dedicated Conversation, so we can keep The Lobby to be about everything else.
  6. 6. If you’re a Which? member and you’re looking for somewhere to discuss issues related to our organisation, including governance, then please head over to which.co.uk/haveyoursay.

So without further ado… welcome to The Lobby. What are you waiting for!?

With special thanks to Which? Conversation community member, Ian, who kindly wrote the bulk of this conversation and provided the excellent name of The Lobby.

Comments
Member

I bought some HP sauce the other day. It’s costing me 6p a month for the next 2 years.

Member

HP sauce is now owned by an American company and made in the Netherlands, though the label still shows our Houses of Parliament. Will we be able to afford HP sauce after Brexit. 🙁

Member

Since half the Houses of Parliament, including the Elizabeth Tower surmounted by the Great Clock, are currently cloaked in scaffolding, the HP Sauce Label is a classic case of misrepresentation. As the last widely available tasty brown sauce left on the market I think I shall have to continue to afford the occasional dollop.

Member

Absolutely. I wonder if there is a case for regaining control of the brand. In fact it would be worth trying to produce as much food as possible in the UK.

Member

I was a fan of HP sauce – even put it in omelettes when I was young(er). Then we tried M&S Brown Sauce (just doesn’t sound as nice, does it?). Its just a good as HP in my expert opinion, considerably cheaper and it’s made min the UK. Maybe other own brands are similar.

Member

Gone many years ago. I could not believe it needed a complete factory to make bottles of brown sauce. The most recent HP Sauce factory in Aston, Birmingham.
Will this perhaps be the fate of the other HP (with contents 🙂 )

Member

Well, it was a bit of a carbuncle.

Member

My great aunt lived a short distance away from the previous version of the sauce factory in Birmingham – a Victorian edifice from which emerged interesting aromas. I remember it well. I shall buy some M&S Brown Sauce next time I am in Norwich.

Member

I wonder if the HP sauce was available at a knock down price when the factory was demolished.

Member

I would like M&S to rename their Brown Sauce “Whitehall Sauce”.

Member

Would that be a Whitehall farce?

Member
bishbut says:
21 November 2017

Isn’t Whitehall a farce now and has always been a well known big unpopular one ??

Member

They would have done better with Brian Rix in charge Bishbut .

Member

Police arrested two men yesterday; one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.

Member

I have just received the latest Which? magazine and one of the first articles is Gift cards: best and worst expiry dates

Gift cards should not have expiry dates. They are money, and shops do not have the right to keep your money and give you nothing in return, it is in effect stealing if you get nothing for that money.

It is all very well stores saying they will extend dates, but as there is nothing on the cards to tell you how much is on them and when those cards run out, you have to rely on the goodwill and honesty of the store to reinstate their true value.

Stores must make a small fortune from expired gift cards and this is wrong and legalised theft.

I would like Which? to campaign stores to remove expiry dates from gift cards.

Member

I agree. I take it this includes “experience days” – how many of those expire and never get used. Having paid up-front for something their should be no reason to limit it – unless there is a special offer such as some groupon events.

I have some old garden centre and book tokens (very old) that I keep unearthing and gradually using. they have been accepted years after they were gifts.

Member

Experience days may be slightly different as their price might be based on variable costs involved to provide the experience. They could be sold with a proviso of paying any additional costs after a specific length of time if the only alternative is to lose them entirely.

But gift cards are basically plastic money that you get could get absolutely nothing in return for.

We have a substantial amount of John Lewis vouchers we are saving for our next TV, and unless we keep track of them, could lose out.

Member

I lost out on some John Lewis vouchers that had been hiding in my wallet. It didn’t occur to me to ask if they could be extended. I also lost out on one which I tried to use with an on-line order and the scratch-off section first resisted my attempts to remove the protective film with a coin and then came away altogether with the code disintegrating and unuseable. I now only use them in the store to avoid a similar problem. I wish the pay desk staff would ask if I have any vouchers to use when I present my Partnership card – they only want to know if I have a loyalty card [no].

Member

@ldeitz Lauren can you direct this to the person who wrote the article for further consideration please?

Member

Hi Alfa, I’m already speaking to the Money and Consumer Rights team who collaborated on this little info column. It has appeared in the December mag as a reminder of rights for those thinking of buying gift cards as Christmas presents. I’ll let you know what the two teams say. Thanks

Member

Thanks Lauren.

Member

I’ve an old Canon MP 600 ink jet printer that has stopped two or three times with an error message. Moving the ink cartridge assembly from its rest position exposes the pads that soak up surplus ink. I clean these with a little kitchen roll and the printer works again. How many have successfully cleaned their printers like this to restore life? I ask because in a Which? “Printers in the spotlight” email today it says:

Ink absorber issues
A message telling you that your ink absorber is full is another sign that it’s time to trade the old model in. The absorber is a piece of felt inside some printers that soaks up excess ink.
It’s possible to replace this, but it’s a messy, awkward job that can result in damaging the device. You’re better off replacing the printer itself.

We should be encouraging people to service their equipment and appliances in my view, with appropriate help. Maybe I’ve just been fortunate?

However, I must say there is a good deal of useful information among the 5 “things to do with your printer” that they discuss. A good format.

Member

It must have some kind of detection for soggy pads, since you dry them and they work. My ancient printer has print heads on the cartridges and it just works and works. What’s more the only way to tell if the ink has run out is when the printing becomes faint. All the ink is used and none wasted in cleaning. “They” obviously thought this was not a way to maximise profits and so “they” got the machine to decide when to stop working and for you to buy more ink, more frequently. My newer printer, ancient my most standards, has a kind of tube and the ink circulates round through the head and back into the cartridge -so, no pads. It does complain that ink is out of date and it stops when the chip tells it to, not when it’s empty. While it continues to print and scan, I’ll use it, but buying a new one won’t be easy, even with the Which guide. Duplex printing, document sorting and various paper feeds, are not always dealt with in reviews. I’m glad that ink cleaning routines are now covered and there is some reference to how wasteful this is. When Which decide to investigate how much cartridges actually cost to make and supply, I’ll break out the champagne.

Member

Champagne is quite expensive Vynor. There are quite acceptable alternatives from third party suppliers (for your own party) – more refills that way 🙂

Member

My first inkjet printer was an Apple StyleWriter, which had a Canon monochrome print engine. I cleaned waste ink two or three times. In contrast, I have never had to attend to any of my HP inkjet printers at home or work.

Some printers stop printing after a fixed number of pages, on the basis that the waste ink tray (containing absorbent pads) will be full. It is necessary to reset the printer after removing, washing, drying and replacing the pads. Depending on the printer, this may or may not be easy.

There are videos on YouTube explaining how to clean and reset some models of printer, and this information may be on the manufacturer’s website or forum. If the alternative is to dispose of a printer, why not have a go at fixing it? Nitrile gloves are a great alternative to ending up with multi-coloured fingers.

Member

When you do investigate the cost of the ink you will get a shock , its already been investigated in the USA and its a compete rip-off .The ink is dearer than champagne if you check the fluid oz content. As far as the pricing structure of “cheap ” printers the manufacturers , again in the USA, have admitted they make their profits from the ink. They don’t hide the fact , they say -well you are buying it under manufacturing price or thereabouts so we have to make some profit. Again you are right , as I said to Wavechange each time you turn on a modern inkjet printer it goes through aa cycle of using a lot of ink, The web is full of complaints but the manufacturers say its to keep the heads clean . Old printers weren’t programmed the same its in the firmware now , I don’t know why the reticence as they actually admit it on some websites .

Member

As we have plenty of respectable third party ink suppliers, the OEM ink cost is less of a problem and many low-users will benefit from cheap printers.

I’m very happy with all my Canon printers – produce good prints and photos, scan and copy well – a lot of function for your money. And my original MP600R lasted 9 years before it inexplicably died after producing thousands of prints. So we have cheap printers and cheap ink (for those who so choose). Choice; what’s not to like?

Member

I’m not happy with the fact that inkjet printers generally have to be left on to prevent them wasting ink next time the are turned on, even if this is within minutes of being switched off. Although I have avoided problems, I am concerned about the ways that manufacturers have made it difficult for users to use third party ink, especially where firmware updates have been used to render these cartridges inoperative. We need the manufacturers to behave responsibly or for the CMA to take action.

Member

I don’t seem to receive these ” . . . in the spotlight” e-mails from Which? but they sound very useful.

Between us we have three identical Brother printers that are getting old but have been exceptionally reliable and have produced massive amounts of copies. One prints very well but only in black. I don’t know whether it is a software problem or a mechanical defect that is preventing colour printing. To try and do some colour printing today I plugged in one of the other printers; it had not been used for three years and unfortunately it would not print at all at first and after several attempts would only produce a ghostly outline. I installed a brand new set of ink cartridges [£50 approx] but to no avail. In the third machine one cartridge needs replacing but I do not have a replacement at the moment so I cannot test that. I suppose I could exchange it for one from one of the other machines but perhaps I need to come to terms with the fact that is time for new equipment. I would certainly get a Brother again as they have been remarkably good with no failures except the very occasional paper jam [which is not the printer’s fault]. They haven’t wasted ink either with excessive cleaning or premature stopping. I don’t think they have an ink absorber.

Member

I don’t get them either John.

I used to get them but they stopped so had assumed Which? had stopped sending them.

@ldeitz Can you enlighten us please?

Member

John – Have you tried cleaning the print heads? To avoid problems with inkjet printers it’s best to use them fairly regularly. It is important to avoid leaving them with a cartridge missing.

Member

We all seem to have our own preferences with printers.

My first printer was a Brother continuous paper. Then an HP, Canon, and back to HP.

The Canon gobbled ink like there was no tomorrow, I never liked it and is one of the very few products I have replaced before the end of its life. That experience makes me very wary of getting another Canon.

The HP is now 10 years old, a C6180. When we bought it, several people had wanted to send us a fax, so it seemed sensible to get a printer with fax capability. But having never used the fax facility, would not bother with that feature in a future printer.

From my PC, every print warns me that I can print in black only, so I accept it and get my colour print anyway. The laptop doesn’t have that problem.

The printer still works well, but the ink cartridges have shrunk over the years. I do use HP ink as people years ago who tried compatibles with this model reported problems rendering their printers useless.

Member

It’s fascinating how our preferences and prejudices relate to past experiences, Alfa. The only printer that I’ve had problems with was a fairly expensive Epson model, which used a large amount of ink, partly because I had to clean the heads regularly, and took ages to go through the startup routine when switched on. That was over 20 years ago, so maybe I should consider Epson printers in future.

Member

I knew a couple of people who had Epsons well over 10 years ago that put me off buying them so Epson was never on my radar.

Brands can change over time, and perhaps we should bring them back into consideration. My Canon printer was only on the market for a very short time, so perhaps Canon realised it was a bad model.

Member

Thank you, Wavechange. I shall look in the user guide and see if I can do that – it occurred to me that they might be congealed. I have never looked at the innards but I have nothing to lose from exploring. They are fairly chunky machines so there could be a removable [and possibly replaceable] unit inside.

Member

Are the print heads in machine or attached to the cartridges, John? If part of the machine it’s worth going through the head cleaning routine but replacement will either not be possible or uneconomical.

I like your idea of having more than one printer that uses the same cartridges, which cuts down on the number of spares needed and means that the ink is more likely to be fresh.

Member

A printer that has not been used for a while dries (my eldest son lent me one that had been stored in his airing cupboard for the last 3 years) . Running the deep head clean several times (using quite a bit of ink of course) eventually cleared the print head and it now runs perfectly.

Member

Ah, “Washing machines in the spotlight” arrived on 17th – a similar format again and full of very useful and sensible advice. It would be even more useful if it gave information on how repairable each machine is, and whether it might be economic, as well as likely life. It does have a lifetime cost calculator that looked encouraging. However, instead of adding purchase price to running cost, and dividing by the number of years it might last without repair – a useful actual annual cost – it seems to simply add energy cost to price and assume they will all last 7 years. So on the face of it, quite deceptive. I doubt many of those cheaper machines listed will ever see a 7 year life.
https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/washing-machines/article/which-washing-machine/which-washing-machine-should-you-buy?

Member

One of my concerns about washing machines is the increasing popularity of very short cycles at low temperature. Which? has a video on the page that Malcolm has provided a link to. We are told that all machines offer a quick wash cycle and the only problem raised is the reduced load capacity.

The main machine featured in the video is a Bosch model with a 15 minute quick wash at 30°C. Half that time will be spend doing rinses and spinning, so I wonder how effective it is at washing. It will certainly help grease and bacteria build up unseen inside the machine.

I am not opposed to washing at 40°C. Provided it is used in conjunction with regular maintenance washes to keep the machine clean, it causes less fabric damage and saves energy compared with a 60°C cycle provided that the wash cycle is extended. I would like to see evidence that a 15 minute quick wash at 30° provides adequate cleaning.

Member

Perhaps the quick wash is meant just to freshen up clothing that is hardly soiled?

Member

I guess you are right, but if the washing machine itself is not kept clean then they will become coated with bugs.

Member

That’s a good point Malcolm. Compared to my grandparents’ generation, people’s clothes are changed much more frequently and they have more baths and showers, so there is arguably a case for a quick wash facility, sensibly used. I don’t think it is suitable for underwear and nightwear, bed linen, towels, tea towels, table cloths, and other articles that are in use for more than a few days, however. Of course, my grandparents’ clothes and household linens were routinely boiled either indoors or at the laundry.

Member

My machine offers a 20 minute quick wash with half the time devoted to rinsing and spinning. There is also a programme that takes an amazing 3 hours and 29 minutes. It has the equivalent washing performance of a 60°C programme but at a lower temperature. I will stick to using programmes lasting an hour or more.

Biological laundry detergents have become popular but the enzymes are not fast acting and will not achieve much in a quick wash.

The manufacturers realise that quick washes appeal to people with little time, but I don’t think they make much sense. Maybe Which? will recognise the problem soon.

Member

It may not be a problem if all people want is to quickly rinse out something that may have been hardly worn. Keeping the machine clean requires an occasional maintenance wash.

Member

The Donald welcomes you to the official White-House Pardoning of the National Thanksgiving Turkey in the Rose Garden .I though he had fallen out with me but I said a kind word recently about Americans so I seem to be back on his list again . When he mentioned Turkey I thought he was pardoning Erdogan for buying S-400 Russian missiles but that is not the case .It will be the 70th anniversary of the Turkey ( not the country ) it must be a tough old bird by this time , nearly as tough as those deep stored EU turkey,s that appear having lain frozen in those vaults for years like the butter mountains .

Member

You should go, Duncan – I am sure he’ll be pleased to meet you at last.

Member

if you remember I was the only one to vote for him in the UK (well nearly ) but “The Swamp ” killed nearly all his policies and reversed them , I would have held out even if the whole Administration resigned , it should be loyalty to the voters not anybody else . I think I might just go bringing a symbolic DEAD Turkey ( which wont get past US Border Control) and I would be stripped searched photographed -DNA taken and held in detention till I was deported as an “undesirable ” Internet “terrorist ” . On second thoughts , the turkey would be “found ” to contain plastic explosives + crack cocaine and I would get Life in an American jail and be lucky to survive 6 months.. In other words I would need an Executive Pass from the White-House to get in. The Turkey would be called an “illegal alien ” a trial would be held and it would be deported to Mexico. It would join a drug gang and rise to be the boss , the US would declare it a “threat to these united States of America – sanction it and then take it out with a remote controlled drone carrying medium range nuke missile/battlefield nuke. The control room guys would attend a medal giving ceremony and get a medal each for saving these United States from a Global Terrorist .

Member

Yes . . . on reflection, Duncan: best stay away.

I lost interest in American politics a long time ago. Did Trump drain the swamp? Or is it still work in progress?

Member

He failed John the “Swamp ” beat him its got to the impeachment stage with some of Congress gathering force to present it to him if they get the necessary backing . The latest email from a US petition organisation to me is the Donald wants/or is going to rescind the US laws preventing wild animal trophies from being exported to the USA from Africa , this includes elephant tusks . As you will realise its nothing to do with “trophies ” but everything to do with big business in tusks . I signed the US petition.

Member

I read that Trump recanted on his support for rescinding the ban on the import of animal parts. He certainly should work out his moral position before storming ahead on such measures. I gather it was mainly to reverse an Obama doctrine but in the light of protests he has, rightly, had second thoughts. That is no way to run a superpower, and it makes it increasingly likely that Putin will see him as vulnerable. As I never cease to discover, many aspects of American culture remain quite primitive and atavistic and Trump sees that as a power base. This is not good for civilisation and humanity where the US used to lead.

Member

That must be the quickest turnaround in history John , I still have the email from the US organisation stating that Donald made his statement on Wednesday . its therefore taken less than a week to change his mind . Thats his big problem and he seems to be easily influenced as most of his election promises have ended up in a dumpster to the anger of his voters. Putin ,at present is the most popular world leader by far as taken in many worldwide surveys, and his popularity is over 80 % in Russia . Just look at Merkel she cant get a coalition going under PR they wouldn’t agree with each other.

Member

The reason that many of Trump’s policy promises are ending up in a dumpster is because they are rubbish. This is democracy’s biggest weakness now [see under “Referendum”].

Member

“Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin has been voted the most “outstanding” figure in Russia’s history, beating the country’s most beloved poet, Alexander Pushkin, and current Russian leader Vladimir Putin.

The poll, by Russia’s independent Levada Center, is the latest to showcase the changing view amongst Russians of Stalin, who presided over mass deportations, a network of concentration camps—or gulags—and is believed to be responsible for the deaths of around 20 million Soviet citizens”
http://www.newsweek.com/putin-behind-stalin-top-russias-most-outstanding-people-poll-629032
Hitler, Mugabe, had high “popularity”, and even Nixon was over 50%, until they were found out.
Criteria for popularity seem disturbing. .

Member

They are rubbish because, like so many politicians, they speak before they think.

Member

I think “Uncle Joe’s” worst crime – it’s hard to pick a winner out of so many abominable atrocities – was the enforced starvation to death of many millions of Ukrainians. The enmity prevails.

Member

Did you check out who ran a lot of those gulags , it might surprise you and the people wou were leaders in the Russian Revolution , things are not always what they seem malcolm . Russia brought out an agreement to stop the celebration of N@zism it passed with a majority of the world but guess who voted against it ? Two countries Ukraine and—the USA . N@zi regiments in Ukraine are running wild with emblems resembling the swastika- guess the religion of Ukraine,s leader/s ? All done to “stick it” to Russia. Poland has just held massive far right marches approved by the Polish government to the disapproval of the EU. all is not what is seems malcolm. The Communist Party of Russia will never gain power capitalism has won the day in Russia , Putin is a well known capitalist. As I keep repeating this isn’t about ideologies this is about profit and the dollar and US big business globalisation . Money gets people worked up more than politics even to WW3.

Member

Bad news comrade – Stalin’s dead.

Oh bother! Who’s going to tell him?

Member

Worse news Derek Bush is still here after falsely accusing Iraq as the one doing 9/11 aided and abetted by his servant T.Blair Why did they get away from being indited in War Crimes trials ?

Member

Ah, that well known anagram… 😉

Member

I learned from a brief visit to parliamentary T.V. yesterday, that the government have had “considerable success” in dealing with cyber crime. Well, it doesn’t seem like it, does it? They appear to equate this success with the amount of fake web sites that they have “taken down”. All well and good, but how about actually putting a few people behind bars? If they have been doing this, it has not been widely reported. Like mosquitos in a swamp, the scammers seem to be able to breed new sites quicker than we can destroy them.

Member

I agree, Vynor. The domains for websites have to be registered and perhaps the registrars should take greater responsibility for avoiding potential problems. If in doubt they could refer applications to those who can give expert advice.

Member

If bank funds transfer frauds fall into the cyber crime category then the financial losses have been escalating exponentially. Even if the banks refund the customers there is still a criminal gain and a cost to all bank customers. As you say, Vynor, not much evidence of justice in motion: I deduce an enforcement deficit.

Member

Not in the USA John as I keep repeating . This is one case where Westminster has not copied the USA. Due, I am told by lack of money and resources.

Member

Probably not in a lot of other countries either, Duncan, but knowing that doesn’t make things better or help those who have been conned out of thousands of pounds. On this site we have to address UK circumstances with UK solutions and there is no doubt our law enforcement agencies are strapped for cash. They don’t have to carry guns either.

Member

You do know US “agents ” can carry guns in this country John ? Resources not being there in relation to the public means only extremely high value fraud is chased up. To say our security services + GCHQ cant trace people would not be true . More money is spent snooping on us than in helping the public who get scammed . It just isn’t the same priority .

Member

Yes, but US agents in the UK have to tell the FCO what they are doing, where they are going, and who they are protecting. Each notification costs them £4.76 per agent that has to be paid in coins. They will then be put under surveillance, which we are pretty good at. We also look out for the decoys and for those pretending to be decoys but are the real thing. We can also follow them on CCTV and stop them getting out of the Underground station by remotely closing the gates. This is all done from a small office in Walthamstow. We also give them dry cleaning vouchers so we can test their trousers for compromising evidence. Duncan, you won’t believe how sophisticated this has all become nowadays. I trust you not to leak this to the Americans or I shall have to conduct all future negotiations with you in Welsh. And don’t forget – you have to watch your back in The Lobby; all is not what it seems.

Member

I liked that John , it made me laugh ( yes I can laugh at myself ) I don’t know how much you said with “tongue in cheek ” but your right about the most vital ones of observation . And John looking at your Horoscope you are not all you seem there is more to you than meets the eye . I am getting on with it – you are a very interesting individual , not of the common mould.

Member

John, your last line sounds like the poster for a psychological thriller “you have to watch your back in The Lobby; all is not what it seems.” Maybe we should have a short story competition for Conversation tales?

Member

We used to have one – in the original forum. It flourished for quite a while.

Member

An idea for future perhaps? The rhyming room is still going strong. I’ve tried to write my own, but I don’t think poetry is a talent of mine.

Member

Possibly what we need now is a topic specifically dedicated to games and puzzles. Puzzles in particular could be seen as a wise move for the average age of the contributors on here. Good press, perhaps?

Member

On another topic , quietly in relation to Brexit a majority of MP,s have voted to rescind the EU,s Animal Sentience Bill . This would mean Britain does not recognise that animals have feelings . can feel pain, have any rights etc . You do realise the full implications of this ? I have signed a petition against that decision , it has still not become law yet as that takes another vote .. Our cat had feelings , could be hurt and could cry out it recognised any injury, lack of food , lack of welfare . It showed us love and affection ( at least to my wife ) . I know there are two opposing camps on this but I believe that the majority of people in this country are pet lovers and would not approve if this bill becomes law.

Member

To consider that non-domestic animals have no feelings seems a bit extreme. To see a superb picture the other day in Norfolk’s daily newspaper of a vixen rearing her cubs gives the lie to that. I think it’s politicians who have no feelings. I would have thought that was one bit of EU legislation we should incorporate in UK law without question. That’s the problem> once the hard-line Brexiteers sniff a piece of law with Brussels stamped on it they have to tear it to shreds and devour it.

Member
Patrick Taylor says:
22 November 2017

” Animal rights activists said the exclusion of the ruling, which was incorporated into EU law in 2009 via the Lisbon Treaty after years of campaigning, was “shocking”.

However, ministers said during the debate that the clause is covered by the Animal Welfare Act 2006. “It’s shocking that MPs have given the thumbs down to incorporating animal sentience into post-Brexit UK law,” RSPCA head of public affairs David Bowles told Farming UK. He added that domestic animals were only covered in the Act, and the 2006 law does not cover sentience. “In the EU, we know that the recognition of animals as sentient beings has been effective in improving animal welfare across the region,” he said.” Evening Standard

I suspect that the recognition of sentient actually has a lot of economic knock-on effects with the recognition being used in creative ways by activists eager to end meat eating/bull-fighting/fishing/ hunting etc.

There seems to be an implication that the EU stance has been adopted throughout Europe which I frankly doubt. However as I have no detail my view is only a suspicion. I suspect the UK is a country which usually actually enforces EU law more vigorously than most countries and would therefore be prime candidate for its application being used.

In the US had the rights of a chimpanzee to be copyright holder of a photograph rather than the human rambling on for years. A lack of commonsense might be most peoples response but when lawyers and the law are involved one worries.

Member
bishbut says:
22 November 2017

Do animals come before humans in all government things ? Are not humans animals too cannot animal laws help humans too? Someone should try ?

Member

From New Scientist:

““MPs quietly voted ‘that animals cannot feel pain or emotions’,” claimed one headline, after the UK’s parliament voted against an amendment on animal sentience.

That has led to widespread outrage on social media, and more than one petition. But MPs did not really vote that animals cannot feel pain and suffering. Rather, they voted against the UK government having a duty to take this into account post-Brexit.

All members of the European Union signed the Lisbon treaty, which came into force in 2009. Article 13 of the treaty states that “since animals are sentient beings, [countries must] pay full regard to the welfare requirements of animals”.

Sentience is the ability to feel pain and fear, as well as joy and happiness. Scientifically, there is now an overwhelming amount of research to suggest that many animals are sentient. “The weight of evidence indicates that humans are not unique in possessing the neurological substrates that generate consciousness. Non-human animals, including all mammals and birds, and many other creatures, including octopuses, also possess these neurological substrates,” declared a group of prominent researchers in 2012.

Member

Anyone who has ever worked with animals would know that [instinctively]. Even with reptiles, their reactions can indicate sentience. I reckon limpets, barnacles and other crustaceans also are not as inert as is imagined.

In PMQ’s before the Budget yesterday, the Prim(e) Minister addressed a question on the topic and affirmed that the Animal Welfare Act 2006 was fully comprehensive in protecting all creatures great and small and that this was enshrined in UK regulations. If that were the case, would so many animal protection organisations be protesting against the legislative changes?

Member

Ants retrieve their dead. 🐜

Member

Welcome to the day in 1963 when US President John F. Kennedy was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas, Texas and which continues to be the ultimate conspiracists’ intellectual venue, who meet regularly and debate whether the murder was really the work of Bill Brewer, Jan Stewer, Peter Gurney, Peter Davy, Dan’l Whiddon, Harry Hawke,Old Uncle Tom Cobley and the combined services of the Army, Navy and Airforce.

Help yourselves to toast.

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The last time I was in Spain I got through six Jeffrey Archer novels. I must remember to take enough toilet rolls next time.

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Personally, I don’t think there’s intelligent life on other planets. Why should other planets be different from this one?

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A tomcat hijacked a plane, stuck a pistol into the pilot’s ribs and demanded: “Take me to the canaries.”

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Patrick Taylor says:
22 November 2017

propertyindustryeye.com/rightmove-exploring-entry-into-the-deposit-replacement-space/

Is an interesting insight into current moves in the rental market to make life easier for landlords and renters. This subject area looks like it is sorting itself out.

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bishbut says:
22 November 2017

Change to us and you get an Amazon voucher ! Why Amazon ? I do not want to buy things from Amazon How much is Amazon paying them to offer Amazon vouchers They must be! I do not want any voucher as a incentive to change and will NOT change because of one .One of the few again I know. I still can think and decide for myself . I do not need an “incentive” to help me decide .I do not follow the flock like sheep

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Your right Bishbut companies are paid to promote Amazon vouchers . One of the most advertised is the “paid survey ” brigade giving then out if you take surveys , Of course there is a catch , you have to provide all your personal details which are then sold to third parties. Amazon is taking over the western world , like Google and Microsoft etc. its so big now that AWS has secured a contract with the FBI to use “secure cloud ” to store all our personal data on . Whole foods USA has been bought by Amazon , the company owns a lot of other companies not directly related to its main business its too big and powerful to even try and criticise it .

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No one gives anything for nothing. I got a quote from an energy supplier that offered a £50 cash back if I switched. Who will pay that? Customers of course.