My nightmare South Western Rail journey

I thought that the dumping of sewage on to railway tracks had ended years ago but we seem to have been on the slow train in the right direction: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/10/train-toilets-to-no-longer-empty-on-to-tracks

I might have been the one who opened the door for ventilation in Grace’s carriage.

Thank you, George. I fully appreciate what Which? is doing, but nothing much seems to change. I am not criticising Which?, just wondering. It was good to have a real-life story to comment on – it enables us to focus on a microcosm of a major industry or service.

Has the Secretary of State been invited to attend a meeting at Which? HQ for an update on all these issues and to give a progress report? I had an opportunity to speak to him directly some months ago and reminded him of some of the outstanding concerns in our area but there was little positive response. The wheels of the DfT grind exceeding slow . . .

The dumping of raw sewage certainly still occurs on the Norwich-London line. Some people discharge the toilet while the train is in a station and the deposit, complete with railway-grade tissue, remains on the ballast or the sleepers for some time until the elements cleanse it away. If people discharge the toilet while the train is at speed then the contents are sprayed over a long distance but partially atomised so the visual impact is less. New trains are due into service later this year that will have retention tanks. I imagine that the action of the tank’s contents during acceleration and braking of the train will render it more fluid for controlled emptying at the depot.

It would be useful if the whole problem of commuter trains were discussed. We have too few tracks, too many passengers at two relatively short times of the day. They are a big financial cost to the operators, it seems to me, and will always be liablet to disruption and overcrowding. We simply cannot continue putting more and more passengers onto those services that cannot handle them, even with Crossrail in London.

How do we deal with commuting in future? Do we pour even more money into a few railways? Build even more roads for car, bus and coach commuters? How do we deal with rush hour town traffic?

I think we need to look beyond the present and look at more sensible solutions. One is to provide affordable social housing (it used to be called council housing, didn’t it?) in major cities so fewer people need to commute. Another is to move jobs out of town to nearer where people live. A third would be to stagger working hours to spread the rush hour(s) over a longer period. But i do not see we can continue as we are.

“The final flush on train toilets that empty their contents directly on to Britain’s tracks will be pulled in 2019, rail bosses and ministers have promised.

A combination of new trains and retrofitting old stock with modern, holding-tank toilets will end the dumping of raw sewage on the railways.”

according to the Guardian 10.10.2017

Not pleasant to have raw sewage on the tracks for the maintenance crews, and not nice when it accumulates on the underside of rolling stock for those at the depots.

Crossrail was due to open in Dec ’18. In Aug ’18 it was disclosed that it would be another year before it opened. How on earth those in “authority” could not know of such a delay shows either incompetence or, more likely, deceit.

“Thirdly, the decisions made by you, TfL and the Government to hide from the public the growing concerns about the Crossrail delivery schedule. This is most apparent in the statement the Rail Minister made to Parliament on 24 July and in the discussion at the TfL Board on 25 July. At this time, it was clearly very well established that Crossrail was not likely to meet the December opening date, even if a new date had not yet been confirmed. By concealing this, you and the Government turned both Parliament and the TfL Board – crucial forums for scrutinising Crossrail in public – into little more than theatrical performances.”
Letter from Caroline Pidgeon MBE AM, Chair of the Transport Committee London Assembly 3/10/18 to the Mayor.

If this is correct then until we get honest people running these projects, not afraid to give the facts, not afraid to put real timescales on projects, then whatever discussions we have with the powers-that-be may not count for a lot.

Sadly that is true, Malcolm. There has been a dispute going on – I think Private Eye has referred to it – over who knew what and when. I watched a two-part documentary on BBC2 about the completion of Crossrail and it was quite obvious to an inexpert eye well before the eventual announcement of postponement that the system was far from ready. Only a third of the test runs had been carried out [none of the demanding and critical ones to confirm safe running of many trains in both directions simultaneously], a number of major stations were nowhere near complete [platform doors and escalators only then being installed, platforms surfaces, signage, and permanent lighting still not in place], and driver training was still at an early stage, so how it could be imagined that the first services through the underground section could start in December 2018 I don’t know. It looks as though there has been both incompetence in programme management and top management/political deceit in refusing to admit the problems.

Because the construction client organisation had been going on continuously throughout the build about how they were bringing it in “on time and on budget”, they could not face the reality that the programme had slipped badly to the right. In itself that is not surprising on such a massive project and is excusable, but the fact that the delay is likely to be a year or more since the forecast completion date shows how false was the data that the management were dealing with and passing up to the directors & CEO, the Mayor’s Office and the GLA. Crossrail even went so far as to dismantle some of the expert teams supervising and managing elements of the construction operation and have had to re-hire specialists in order to oversee completion and sign off the works.

The failure to open as planned will cost Transport for London vast amounts of lost revenue. The Mayor had pledged not to raise public transport fares on his watch but there will be a big hole in his budget because there is a limit to what other expenditure they can stop or curtail without incurring prohibitive penalties.

When it finally arrives, all tested and trialled, Crossrail – or the Elizabeth line as it will be known – will be a fabulous addition to the capital’s and the nation’s infrastructure. By all appearances it is being built to a very high standard and will transform travel across London. I just hope HM The Queen will be available to open it. Perhaps concerns around that contributed to an over-ambitious timetable.

It may be a fabulous addition to the capital’s infrastructure but I doubt most of the nation will benefit and the word “fabulous” could yet prove particularly apt, given it’s now almost three quarters of a billion over budget and subject to a lengthy delay. But I suppose major infrastructure projects do seem to have a habit of coming in way above budget. Wonder if the reverse is ever true?

I think it will help people from all parts of the UK who come into or need to go through London. It will take pressure off the existing system and for many it will provide quicker links to major destinations in and around the capital. Interchanging from the main lines to the Underground at stations like Liverpool Street and Paddington is time-consuming and awkward at present. Changing trains further out at stations like Stratford and Ealing Broadway could be simpler and faster despite the additional stops. It will mainly benefit east-west journeys but there will be an interchange with Thameslink at Farringdon to provide north-south connections. Convenience will largely depend on how the other routes adapt their timetables, stopping patterns and connections to take advantage of the new lines. I expect even with the budget over-run the benefit-cost ratio is still favourable.

I’m not sure that it is possible for passengers to open the sliding doors on modern trains. I haven’t seen an emergency lever or anything to get a grip on to ease the doors apart. Perhaps the application of brute force would do it but it would be extremely hazardous for passengers to jump down onto the tracks, especially where there is third rail electrification. That could just prolong the delay.

There is usually a safety glass window in each carriage which could be broken for ventilation; a hammer should also be present. I wonder if any of the passengers trapped on the train read the emergency procedures notice that was displayed and found anything useful in it.

I think the £80 fine is for improper use of the emergency brake handle which brings the train to a halt but does not release the doors. Only the driver or guard/conductor can do that.

I expect if they could have done so the train operator would have brought a diesel-engined or locomotive-hauled train alongside to detrain the passengers on Grace’s train but the approach tracks were probably occupied by stalled trains since the incident happened in the rush hour.

I would suggest that the Rail Safety and Standards Board and Her Majesty’s Railway Inspectorate should be investigating and developing processes and procedures for such emergencies.

Each door shall be provided with an internal emergency egress device to enable the door to be unlocked and opened individually from inside the vehicle, irrespective of the condition of vehicle power supplies. The emergency egress device shall be operable at any time however, the door shall only be capable of being opened when the vehicle speed in less than 5 km/h. The emergency egress device shall be clearly labelled, indicating its method of operation.. From: https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/standards/GMRT2473%20Iss%202.pdf

As stated in this document, it has been superseded, though the replacement does not provide the same admirably clear and concise information. I very much doubt that passengers would be unable to open the doors of a stationary train in an emergency.

It certainly would be dangerous for passengers to leave the train but opening the door would provide some ventilation.

I have seen such a facility on slam-door trains [which are being superseded by the end of this year] but not noticed an emergency egress device on sliding door stock.

I am surprised that the RSSB accepts that passenger-activated egress onto the track should be allowed, especially where there is an electric current rail alongside one of the running rails or where there is a parallel track on which trains could continue to run. The distance between the rails on parallel tracks is commonly referred to as the ‘six-foot’ and the passing distance between the bodysides of two trains is only about two feet. It would be dangerous to get out in such a position although it might be less dangerous on the opposite side of the carriage depending on the situation and whether or not the electric current rail was on that side of the train [its position varies according to the track geometry and other engineering factors] but there could be power cables present even if there was no current rail. On lines close to termini there are often four or more tracks adding to the hazards. Even on non-electrified lines and on lines with overhead electrification there are still many hazards and it is a surprisingly big drop down onto the ballast. Unsupervised egress can never be safe but in an emergency like a fire or terrorist incident the risk could be acceptable [i.e. as low as reasonably practicable in the circumstances].

The last slam door stock was taken out of mainline service in 2005, a pair of Class 121 “Bubble Cars” staggered on with Chiltern until 2017 but they’d been retro-fitted with central locking.

Sliding door trains have an emergency release either to one side or above the doors. I’m not aware of any £80 fine for improper use. In the circumstances I might’ve risked it. The fine for improper use of the emergency stop lever is, I think, £200.

Passengers self evacuating from a train is recognised as dangerous in the rail industry but as you say there are some circumstances where it’s unavoidable.

Thank you, Phil. I can assure you that slam door carriages are still running on the Norwich to London Liverpool Street inter-city service and will be for some months yet. They have electrical central door locking but while the train is in a station and the locking is released passengers can open them freely and close them by slamming them shut. The door locking is re-engaged before departure.

To open the doors from the inside when the locks have been released passengers have to lower the drop light and lean out of the carriage to turn the door lever in a downward direction until the latch opens. Many people are physically incapable of reaching down in that fashion and will be heartily glad to see the end of those carriages.

It is interesting that in the incident reported by Grace nobody on the train seemed to be aware that there was an emergency door release facility that could have provided ventilation. Perhaps the train was so packed it was impossible to operate it. Or maybe there was a deficiency in the clear labelling requirement.

The Norwich-London trains use the BR Mk 3 carriages which weren’t included in the “slam door” category as they were fitted with central locking which prevents the doors being opened until the train is at a stand. Frequent accidents were caused by passengers trying to alight whilst the train was still moving. It was also the old slam door stock’s lack of crashworthiness shown in the Clapham accident that contributed to their condemnation. This is not a problem with the Mk 3s.

Passengers on Grace’s train did discuss opening the doors using the emergency lever but decided against it. It would’ve prevented the train from moving again once the power was restored.

Thanks, Phil. I should have read the article again before saying the passengers were not aware there was am emergency door release facility., but it wasn’t clear whether what they were contemplating was (a) using the emergency brake handle [which would not have opened the doors but would have stopped the train from moving before the air pressure level in the braking system was back to normal], or (b) using the emergency passenger egress device adjacent to the doors [which would have allowed the train to proceed once the device had been reset and all the doors had been closed again].

This whole situation would certainly bear further investigation and clear guidance to train crew and passengers.

It emphasises the need to have at least one additional safety-qualified staff member on each train as it is unrealistic to expect the driver to leave the cab in the middle of an incident.

Perhaps we should have a Convo to discuss ways of reducing our dependence on these forms of transport. Most discussion focuses on improving public transport and roads for the use of cars, but maybe we need to pay more attention to making roads safe for cyclists.

There was an incident some years ago where a tube train was stuck in a tunnel and the passengers resorted to smashing all the windows.

As I posted earlier:
“The final flush on train toilets that empty their contents directly on to Britain’s tracks will be pulled in 2019, rail bosses and ministers have promised.
A combination of new trains and retrofitting old stock with modern, holding-tank toilets will end the dumping of raw sewage on the railways.”
according to the Guardian 10.10.2017
I wonder if they are running to time?

That is from the article I provided a link to near the start of this Convo. I had a quick look for more recent information but did not find anything useful.

Not all the new trains will have toilets but those that do will have to have retention tanks.

It is not unusual to see passengers on trains without toilets drinking large beakers of tea or coffee. This is asking for trouble if there is a prolonged delay.