Are you entitled to compensation from TAP Air Portugal?

Yet again another good logical piece that avoids the knee-jerk simple answer and looks to the complications that would arise. The Dutch Consumentenbond consumer organisation have an arrangement with a for-a-fee claims company. One of several that exist.

I think that having a body specialising in making claims is probably a better approach given the complexities of the regulations. I understand they actually access all arrival and departure times and are obviously incentivised to make the system work

I have small faith in the airlines operating any system voluntarily and with full rigour

Malcolm, do you not believe that a passenger who suffers a deficient service should pay less for the service than a passenger who enjoys a perfect service?

I don’t believe that EU261/2004 compensation is mostly funded by increased fares, because then EEA and Swiss airlines’ fares would be uncompetitive, particularly on flights from non-EEA/Swiss airports to EEA/Swiss airports. The compensation comes out of airlines’ profits and creates a huge incentive to ensure that passengers are not unreasonably delayed.

We all suffer from variable service whether planes , trains, buses, broadband, energy, banking……. so I’d look at a normal service as what we pay for, with normal deficiencies that we expect. Perfect is a bonus, and it depends on your own personal view. Airline delays are expected, but if the cause is through negligence or incompetence of the airline then compensation is fair.

We have driven many airline fares down so far that I don’t think the perfect service is something we can expect; you get what you pay for. Those who pay the premium fares should expect better, and be compensated accordingly.

Compensation will come out of the airline’s profits but, if they are small and compensation takes them below an acceptable level, then the airline will have to think how to fund them – fare increase is their source of revenue. Shareholders will likely no longer support an unprofitable airline.

I do agree that the aim is to make it not worthwhile to perform badly through mismanagement. If compensation or fines are just seen as a “business expense” and allowed for in their financial plan then we won’t get far. Reputational damage and much greater loss of revenue might be more persuasive. Perhaps reducing landing and take off quotas for badly performing airlines would be an even greater incentive.

I think we are getting off-topic. The question is whether the existing compensation should be automatic instead of requiring a passenger to claim it. How could this work?

Probably like full product recalls, it will be very difficult. However, for statutory compensation, as for EU flights, when a qualifying delay occurs why not issue every passenger on the flight with a voucher, carrying their ticket number. These could be submitted to a central independent organisation that checks and decides the validity of the claim (was the airline to blame), recovers money directly from the airline and pays the passenger.

Malcolm, what you’re suggesting is not automatic, because the passenger still needs to do something to claim (or “submit” or any other similar concept). Which are suggesting that compensation be paid automatically, whereby the passenger doesn’t need to do anything in order to receive the statutory compensation.

No, I was not suggesting it was “automatic”. The only possible bit that might be regarded as automatic would be issuing each affected passenger with an authenticated form for a potential claim. As has been said a number of times it would be impossible to automatically pay every passenger given the different types of payment and the sources of those payments.

But the reason for this conversation is to discuss the merits of automatic compensation. I disagree that it would be impossible. For example, passengers could specify in their airline user accounts (including frequent flyer accounts) the bank account to which they would like any automatic EUR-denominated compensation to be paid. This would be a sort code and account number for UK-based GBP accounts or otherwise an IBAN.

I disagree with Which that this should be implemented at a UK level. As the legislation is from the EU, it should be implemented at an EU level. The UK has a good track record of pushing the EU to implement consumer-friendly legislation. Perhaps it can do so for this too.

For those people who might often travel to Lisbon the 800 euro of flights might well be much better value than 400euro to an Account. One would be foolish in that instance to take cash,

“The airline first offered the passengers flight vouchers which were double in value to the flight cancellation compensation and the accommodation reimbursement owed.
Read more: which.co.uk/news/2018/08/one-cancelled-flight-six-different-compensation-experiences/ – Which?

Also in the article it advises of a traveller who automatically had the minimum amount credited to his bank account rather than his claimed figure. Does automatic compensation fall over if the amount required exceeds the statutory payment?

Which raises the question is the 400 euro THE compensation for the cancelled flight and some will benefit well and and a few will lose out? I can see how it is working but wonder about the original legislators idea. Looking further I see that the question is complicated by the follow-ons that you might choose after the cancellation.

“If your flight is cancelled, the airline must offer you, on a one off basis, a choice between:

the reimbursement of your ticket and, if you have a connecting flight, a return flight to the airport of departure at the earliest opportunity
re-routing to your final destination at the earliest opportunity or,
re-routing at a later date at your convenience under comparable transport conditions, subject to the availability of seats.

As soon as you have chosen one of these three options, you no longer have rights in relation to the other two options. However, the airline carrier MAY still have to provide COMPENSATION

if you choose to have your ticket reimbursed – the compensation will depend on the type of flight
if you choose re-routing – compensation will depend on the type of flight and the delay in reaching your final destination, past the original scheduled arrival time.”

Sorry to be picky but you can see a possibility of a flight being cancelled but the passengers reaching , or some of them reaching the destination, before the $400 euro compensation kicks in at 4 hours late.

So to help me out here as it seems to me that on a cancelled flight you may have many different options being used and some passengers preferring vouchers. I think it is complex and I am having trouble seeing how it can be automated easily whilst allowing for all the option.

OK. Claims may still need to be authorised as an airline might dispute whether compensation is due unless it is clearcut. We’ve seen how Ryanair, for example, try to wriggle out of claims. Which is why I suggested a “clearing house” where the validity could be decided and the payments taken from the airline and distributed without individuals having to go through all the hassle.

The whole point is that compensation should be sent automatically to passengers’ bank accounts within hours of the delay. There should be no opportunity for an airline to refuse or dispute a “claim”, because there would be no “claim”. The question here is how airlines ascertain the bank account to which the payment should be made.

Where it is clear that there is a valid reason for compensation I can so no reason whatsoever for not paying it immediately. Other circumstances cases would need to be investigated. I think there is merit in the automatic compensation being advocated by Which?

Ryanair etc. may sell cheap flights but they still have to comply with the rules.

It is a shame that what might be an informative piece is weakened badly by being obviously agenda driven and not providing an overall picture of the likelihood of a long delay.

I don’t mind playing with statistics myself but I like to be honest in providing a sense of scale for the problem. If people realised delays only affected a tiny percentage of travellers they might see delays as a reasonable trade-off for the convenience of flying.

I agree with Malcolm if Which? is writing about problem areas for consumers please quantify the numbers in a way that helps subscribers understand fully the numbers relevant.

As to TAP’s behaviour what actions can Which? take – presumably a group legal action? Who is the regulator enforcing payouts currently?