Does fibre mean fibre?

Yes Mike , when they price the product at £1000 and take off “up to 70% ” when the product actually costs £150 , this scam originates in the States years ago but US citizens are “street wise ” to US business sales techniques , so much so they are cynical about it and make jokes/cartoons that are quite searingly funny.

I had a funny feeling there was going to be an American dimension to this. I think dodgy marketing is a universal condition and UK commerce has been at it for generations.

Britain never had the same intensity as the US John , it isnt generations its only in the past decades that it has become so intense and penetrating . When we started off around 1955 with adverts they were mild while in the US they on their screens night+day continuously telling you if you dont buy their product your neighbours would think less of you – remember the saying- keeping up with the Jones,s I hope you dont think that started in the UK , Started in AMERICA- Arthur Momand- comic strip -1913 and in the USA its generic for neighbours , that transposed into the advertising business as they saw it as a means of pressurizing people into “getting something better” than their neighbour . This “American ” type of advertising is now in this country building up to adverts with programmes in between . John I can give cyou the whole 40,s/50,s onwards history of US advertising , the American cant be beaten at it, its so good that more and more UK adverts dont even bother with English dialect but use Americans . Lots of countries use American announcers , even China but Russia looking for a sort of gravitas use ENGLISH announcers , with the occasional US commentators . Nobody can beat American at it thats why they are so good at propaganda , Russia is like a child in comparison. I know advertising from the psychologists that are employed right through the whole set up . By the way the organisation you are a member of Which you should post praising Which Advertising Team is doing a marvelous job expanding worldwide , if it had shares it would be one to be “Bullish “about , not be long till its up there with the big names .

Thanks for that interesting history of the origin of certain advertising practices, Duncan. I wasn’t thinking about TV commercials in my comment because I rarely see any, but it is true that the whole world idolised Madison Avenue and their slick and clever techniques. The very first adverts on British commercial television were for American brands, largely because few UK companies had any experience of direct broadcast advertising into people’s homes and their early efforts were like something off the printed page with a dulcet voice-over. Even cinema adverts in the UK were fairly pathetic and so repetitive they became a standing joke and people mimicked them as they played.

Status consciousness certainly caught on in a big way in this country during the sixties as people became more affluent and consumer desirables were rolling off the production lines. This was certainly the case with motor cars and domestic hygiene products [remember the Persil adverts featuring two lines of washing, one white, the other grey?]. And everything from cigarettes to hairspray had connotations of neighbour superiority.

Apart from TV ads for films, I cannot recall any UK TV adverts at the moment that feature an American accent, but then I miss most of them. Perhaps it doesn’t cut much ice over here these days. It is certainly the case, however, that British actors and actresses are in high demand to do the voice-overs for American commercials because the British English accent is considered to be more authoritative than the American English version.

I exclude from this here the very enjoyable, and very well-made, adverts for Halifax Bank mortgages featuring the Top Cat characters. To my ears the voices are totally indistinguishable from the originals of fifty or more years ago, so some clever casting there. I just love Officer Dibble’s Manhattan drawl. TC needs a loan to move up-market to a better trash-can in a cleaner alley and he lays on the schmaltz to get one. Smart marketing. British advertising agency.

Brian I can accept some of what you say but question all ISP,s are “blameless ” have you really taken a look at their website advertising where they comment on x+y as being “inferior to themselves pointing out flaws etc there are even posters on today about Talk-Talk and others saying how they dont tell the truth. Tell me in engineering terms how you guarantee a minimum speed ? to achieve that you would need unlimited broadband usage and a very high speed as you know given x speed the whole family will push it to the limit and beyond and then come on websites like Which and say- my HD + films and my sons interactive games and daughters high social interaction and my wife,s activities use up our speed causing problems , while are you guaranteeing every household has perfect wi-fi – internal cable run , no RF radiation from nearby DECT/Cell-phone units / baby alarms / mains noise / etc etc . I know what people do and its not all legal I spent 19 years in peoples/houses / businesses fixing faults caused by them even adding an extension onto the house and not paying Openreach to divert it but cementing it into the walls where the acid from the cement burnt through the plastic wiring . I have a list as long as your arm on the many devious things done including extensions in sheds where internal wiring was used externally causing faults , I could go on indefinitely on this subject.

Thank you, Brian for making that very clear. I think we’re still waiting for the Advertising Standards Authority to reach a conclusion on the use of “up to”. Personally I hope it will be outlawed.

I agree with you, Duncan – there are far to many imponderables and aspects that are outside the control of the telecom service provider. Any guarantee would have to be very heavily qualified as being limited to the speed at the master socket only, with one router only and one device only served by a hard ethernet connexion to the router, and for average browsing activity only [not film, TV, games or other high-demand interactive content]. There would have to be exclusions for network overloads, power failures anywhere in the system, and a high contention ratio caused by traffic from other properties in the locality. It would then need to be understood that each deviation from that specification – extra devices, wireless connexions, high-speed content, etc – would have an adverse impact on the speed profile. In fact such a guarantee would be worthless and no one is going to waste their time devising one that would tick all the boxes.

I hope that most people would like to see ‘up to’ outlawed, but I don’t know where Which? stands on this nowadays. This Conversation is supposed to be about the description of broadband services (FTTP etc) and my efforts to elicit discussion of the ‘up to’ misrepresentation failed.

Wavechange-“Up to ” -Cambridge Dictionary ( British English ) – used to say something is less than or more than a stated value , number, or level. Which leaves the question WHAT stated level ? it is therefore misused by the advertising community and its a wrong interpretation of the English language . Its “Americana ” Madison Avenue advertising when used in this sales presentation of it. Madison Avenue “Techniques ” -“gimmicky-slick use of the communications media to play on the emotions(William Safire )

And there was I thinking it was just gutter-level bamboozlement. I should have known better.

Thanks folks. We have had a lot of discussion about ‘up to’ in the earlier Conversations but, as I have said, I have no idea if Which? is pursuing this issue. Despite all the press releases and good press coverage, I’m not sure if Which? is prepared to criticise companies in the way that it used to.

You ,mean a bit more radicalism Wavechange ? “Heaven forbid ” ! (tongue in cheek ). As I have been saying Which is steering a media line that is very successful worldwide and its corporate image gains in prestige daily , it is appealing to a large audience and its working , I doubt if it ran it like I am it would be so popular I know exactly the western “world mood ” and Which is slipping into that mood excellently. You cant fault Which,s media division it knows what it is doing.

It certainly gets a lot of headlines in the UK. I am not in a position to comment on its public profile abroad; I wasn’t aware of any necessity to have one except within the consumer testing and advice community where its reputation faces stiff competition.

Personally, I feel that Which? falls short on its mission statement and I agree with Wavechange. With a million or more members, subscribers and supporters it should be strong and fearless.

Yes Duncan, I would like to see some much more positive action. I respect that the role of Which? seems to be to identify problems and report them to the appropriate organisations and authorities to pursue, but so often we see little progress and are back at square one.

If Which? did adopt a more aggressive stand then occasionally it might have to issue a public apology, but that might be a small price to pay if we can make real progress with other Which? campaigns.

I agree with John that Which? should be strong and fearless. Does anyone remember how the cover of Which? magazine sometimes carried high impact photos, for example a small 4WD Suzuki at 45 degrees when going round a corner and a steam iron with a melted aluminium soleplate thanks to thermostat failure and the absence of a safety cutout. The recent covers are more artistic but they have not registered in my memory.

rant
With a strong push from Which? and support from subscribers, I think we could have got rid of dodgy broadband advertising by now, maybe up to five years ago.

Which? could have pushed for service providers to install nuisance call protection at the exchange when personal call blockers were introduced.

Which? could have asked us all to tell our banks what we think of them charging punitive interest rates, even if we have never had to pay them.

/rant 🙂

Wavechanhge , as always I am putting realism first , of course I would like to see more radicalism , but even on the pages of Which I have been criticised for being so . I therefore accept that Which conforms to a certain pattern that has been agreed at board level as -“the way to go ” , this is normal behavior for most western commercially aimed companies its something I know very well about . Look I was booted off the most popular US tech “help ” website in both the USA +abroad WHY ??? because I was disingenuous enough to criticise Microsoft and I have to be fair they were entirely up front with why they did it — they got financial support from Redmond Headquarters , no mucking about came right out with it , no hiding behind corners , and you know what ? I respected the fact they were honest , even BT weren’t happy with me when I recommended a small telecom company that the poster would have benefited from which (to me ) was no competition to BT , they told me up front, competition commercially is not allowed on our forum , so I became persona non grata , I accepted that too . Let that be a lesson to all those people who think that I think BT can do no wrong . For tose thinking give us much more radicalism , well here is another -real life actual event ( condensed ) , I used to belong to one of the most radical websites on the planet, most would construe it with far-far-right world politics , but it would not allow any criticism of its policy brake the rules- ex-communicated .This upset many indifferent parts of the world although the Webmaster was Australian , many posters were German- US-French I got to know very many people from those parts exchanging emails etc , but because it was so narrow in its outlook I cut down my posts even when I has “highlighted ” as an “inspiration ” and even had a fancy ICON with a stirring picture of a warlike people BUT it failed , not through the website having to change server countries many times to stop 3 countries security agencies attacking it , no it sunk a year or two ago because of lack of funds , in other words it could not attract many who were sympathetic with the political points but not the warlike far right rhetoric , in reality it was intellectually defunct because of the very narrow viewpoint allowed and the public, being the public wanted a broader scope of acceptance of their point of view even if it only differed in semantics and asking for a more public acceptable agenda. a wise website will allow leeway in its policies but how many do that in modern commercial Britain ? In that respect , as someone well acquainted with how websites operate I think Which is being generous in allowing me to post , as I cant help straying ( slightly ) into radicalism , for that I am grateful . It shows , at least to me , that this country still has some Freedom of Speech left.

The problem perhaps is that “up to” accurately describes the situation. Broadband speed is not a fixed parameter – it does vary as many have pointed out – distance from exchange, whether you have copper, FTTC, FTTP, time of day, how much traffic, how many people are using your connection and your own equipment, distance from router to pc, etc. How else can you describe such a variable service?

What we need, though, is two things in my view; a revision of the % of the people who will get the maximum speed from 10% to perhaps 50%, but on its own that is insufficient. Much more importantly a way of getting an estimate to the outside of your own premises of the typical speed you are likely to get- which I understand can be provided. Publicise the “up to” plus the way to get a personal estimate and what more can be done ?

My ISP used to advertise my service as ‘up to 24Mbps’ for its standard copper broadband and I never achieved more than a third of this speed. Thankfully it dropped the dishonest ‘up to’ statement in favour of an estimated speed range, which proved realistic.

Any estimate would have to assume that a single modern computer was plugged into the master socket.

There is some merit in ISPs erring on the low side with estimated speeds and with my present FTTP service the speed I record is almost invariably higher than what I am paying for.

If your pension was ‘up to X pounds a month’ and you received a third of that you might want a better description.

Duncan – I think it will be a gradual process to help make people aware of how our lives are being manipulated by the commercial world. It’s probably best to focus on UK examples that most people can relate to.

Labeling this as dishonest is incorrect. You are clearly not in the 10% to which this claim applies (unless you are saying that no-one got this speed of course.) unless your ISP told you this would be your speed. But if correct, 10% would have achieved this speed at their premises.

Simply focusing on “up to” is avoiding the real issue of how we do advise customers of what speed they are likely to get. I repeat the “up to” speed is used to describe the general speed for the area on an agreed basis. However what I want to know is the estimated speed I will get at my house. I asked my ISP for this and they gave me a figure which is generally achieved.
That is surely what we should be exploring?

The problem is Wavechange as a recent US CIA chief said– England –???? pushovers when it comes to obeying anything a government wants as they too willing to accept authority . Its built into the National physic Just say its for the “good ” of the country and the people will accept anything. I wont publish his name unless some insist.

I think that industry has too much control of governments past and present, Duncan, but that’s way off our topic.

Malcolm – How has your ‘up to’ broadband speed helped you make an informed choice when choosing a broadband service?

Since government shows corruption, incompetence and seems to promote the interests of its members and employees over that of its customers, maybe industry is the slightly better choice. At least we can choose who to buy from. We aren’t generally locked into a 5 year contract with our food retailer, energy supplier or car repairer.

I don’t understand your question; I asked for and was given an estimate of speed. That is what I think is important. As I have said before, the published speed simply gives a general indication of the levels of service available in your area. We should focus on proposing the best advice and information a particular consumer needs if we want to be helpful.

We have agreed on getting an estimate of speed long ago, Malcolm. My question is what additional benefit is there in having an ‘up to’ speed? All it seems to do is confuse the public.

ISPs offer different speed ranges depending upon what you want and how much you want to spend. Mine offers 3 packages labelled as – Unlimited up to 17 Mbps, Fibre up to 38 Mbps and Fibre Extra up to 76 Mbps. That seems straightforward, not confusing, gives me a choice of what package to consider buying, and to compare with other providers charges.

We just have to hope that the service provider, in offering, say, 76Mbps, has checked that that is physically possible most of the time at the address concerned – although that could change overnight if a another high demand user signs up and starts downloading.

We are seeing that the first generation broadband capacity is fast being outstripped by demand and there will have to be some additional cables and cabinet capacity in many areas to supply people’s requirements – not necessarily to give higher speeds but to deliver the speeds offered. I wonder if any service provider has actually withdrawn any higher speed offers, and transferred any customers to lower speed tariffs [with commensurate financial adjustments], as it has become clear that customers might not be able to get what they are paying for during normal waking hours.

Unfortunately I believe Ofcom lives in a dream world some way from reality, Nearlydan. I think they have seriously over-estimated the percentage of properties that are currently capable of accessing “decent broadband” [10 Mbps]. Perhaps they have accepted what Openreach have told them.

I rechecked just in case my previous advice had changed due to progress , but it hasn’t- Nearlydan , its still the same old answer in urban but not upgraded – its not financially viable to upgrade it -ie -not enough customers off your particular cabinet , but just as bad some local councils refuse planning permission for a fibre cabinet ( meaning two cabinets near each other ) -unlikely —NOPE ! – Kensington+ Chelsea + Bath want “tidy streets ” . There is a way for some rural communities to install their OWN cabinets -known as – sub-loop -unbundling done in Lyddington+Rutland and Hambleton paid for FTTP – FTTC -cost £25,000 -£50,000- FTTP triple that and more . So rural users –are you rich or have rich neighbours ?

I have been unlucky twice! I have just moved to a rural area where the speed I get is less than 2 mbps, yet, despite the location, there are homes less than 500 yards down the road that are getting speeds between 53 and 62 mbps. I moved from Manchester where I was less than 3 miles from the city centre. Again the speed I could obtain was less than 2mbps yet on the next street they had high speed fibre (77 mbps)! I was told that I was supplied by a different exchange and they still operated with copper wire. When I inquired as to when this would be replaced I was told that ‘there were no plans in the near future to carry out work of this nature’!

It’s more or less a lottery. We are (so we are constantly told) the 5th largest economy in the world and yet there are a substantial number of homes with broadband speeds that were common 15 years ago.

Neil could you give me information as to what general area you live in and the telephone exchange you come off of so I can try to help you , without this information I am stuck . As I have said in another post the upgrading of the street cabinet to FTTC is based on commercial viability -IE- the number of customers coming off it but I would very much like to know what telephone exchange isnt going to be upgraded to enable fibre you are talking about ??

That post deserves a “thumbs up ” Paul and yes , you are right SIRO is a good idea and for all UK rural customers – here is a quick look at it . Its a joint venture between the Eire National Electric Grid + Vodaphone –yes I know that great (not ) customer relations company , anyway up to 1 Gbps -yes I know “up to ” but minimum is 150 Mbps . It will be a main supplier and like BT other companies can “piggy-back ” its lines , its also saving initial cost infrastructure by using the Eire National Grid . Yes the UK has it–for some commercial organisations there is no big problem of sending different channels down a cable be it for power or not and the speeds are the same as the glossy advert for Siro . Problem –well Vodaphone arent stupid all your computer ancillaries for connecting to the internet will have to be bought from Vodaphone ONLY , its not popular here and in the USA + Australia , only in-house ( home ring main ) only low/medium power lines can be used for accessing BPL , different countries use different voltages so not a globalisation product pushing up cost. Signal boosters/surge protectors /transformers are needed on long lines introducing noise etc , all your original router equipment etc is useless with it , so you are tied to Vodafone ( shares just rose in the NYSE -shouts of hurrah !! ) . Then you have the trouble of Leaving Vodaphone ( nigh impossible ) as witnessed on this website. BUT its still a good idea ( in the right hands ) –BPL- =broadband over power lines –aka- EOP = Ethernet over power lines.

Interesting Chris , as regards the difference in speed , you are sure you both come off the same cabinet ? if so then its down to cable resistance between you and the cabinet ( all things being equal ,of course ) and that you tested from the master socket after removing all internal wiring (unplugging ) and used a LAN cable to your router and your computer isn’t slow. Many people dont realise that local underground cable doesn’t run as the crow flies and can twist and turn to avoid pipes electric/gas cables and of course allowed access to run the cable through private land (often refused ) . As regards the different speeds of the speed checkers I have posted all the different ways many companies operate them , some give a choice of a local server ,some dont , some eliminate all the noise/interference first from your line giving an exaggerated false reading/some use multiple readings combined etc . As far as I know Which uses a US Amazon sever but at present I dont have its full details .

Duncan, I and my neighbour both are connected to the same cabinet – he is a mere 0.1km closer. The only (probable) difference is that my connection may have more aluminium in the connecting cable. As for my testing, the computer doing the testing is Windows 2012R2 and is connected directly to the router by Cat5 cable which is itself connected to the BT FTTC modem which itself is a mere 30cm from the master socket. The TBB and BT Wholesale tests are remarkably consistent, whereas the Which? test shows a significantly higher upload speed and the latency is also very different.

Chris-Cat 5E cable ? I used a wiring version from outside my house directly to my PC and the same distance from my BT HH5 as yours is it stops any BT engineer blaming internal wiring problems , my master socket is less than 1M from the router/modem . It sounds like you have an external cable problem because that is too much of a speed difference to blame an internal problem as you seem to know your stuff . Aluminum OMG !! it couldn’t get worse especially if there is a copper/ aluminium joint somewhere in the local network cable ,under the ground or attached to a pole DP / wall DP or direct feed , bad news they deteriorate over the years and dont stand up to vibration well . Right– get an engineer(technician ) to do a line loop test from the master socket outwards to test the resistance of your line , it will either be high or there is a large noise content . What he can do is transfer you to another (better ) pair of wires at the local side -cabinet -D-side-( local distribution ) to the DP -(distribution point ) – black box on pole/ attached to building or if direct feed then no box. Keep in touch this is the type of post I like very much keeps me thinking.