Ever been sent dodgy electricals by an online shop?

Beryl, leaving aside the tax issues, which I agree should be properly addressed by our government, I think that what we need is for online stores to be forced to behave responsibly. They can and do provide access to goods at reasonable prices which might not otherwise be easily available, and that is not something we should have to give up.

The Schuko adaptor which is the subject of the test purchase is not something easily obtainable on the high street. Staying on the subject of plug adaptors, it is a fact that many of those sold by such reputable shops as John Lewis and Boots do not comply with the standards! This is especially true of the universal types, all of which accept Schuko (German) plugs, but none provide an earth contact for Schuko.

I wholeheartedly agree tax issues should be addressed by governmental bodies but it is also important to look at the big picture. These digital multinational companies are well able to produce goods at very low prices simply because of their tax avoidance policies which may be legal (in some countries) but wholly unethical depriving the UK of valuable revenue that could be put to good use by helping to fund our public services, NHS education etc.

Monopolistic practice can also procure dominance over prices and supplies, leaving high street stores who pay their fair share of corporation tax unable to compete and subsequently go into liquidation. If governments are unable (or unwilling to address this unfair “legal” practice it is up to the consumer to exercise their influence by boycotting these companies.

Beryl – Unfortunately, I don’t believe the situation is quite as simple as you make out. One of the purposes of the EU is to allow freedom of movement of goods and to allow companies to trade across the EU without unnecessary restrictions. A company has to be registered somewhere. Are you seriously suggesting that citizens of the other 27 member states should boycott British companies because they are paying tax to the UK Government? Or maybe you are suggesting that companies should be forced to register a subsidiary in each of the territories in which it trades? This would create a huge rise in administration and compliance costs, no doubt to the benefit of the accountants, but would defeat the whole point of the single market and freedom of movement of goods.

Scott – I tink you are perhaps missing the point that Eire and Luxembourg are leaching off the EU by deliberately low tax rates for the likes of Amazon and Google. It is because of their size that these corporations can game the EU’s various countries tax codes.

And of course US corporaations tend to hold billions of profits off-shore until such time as ythe US goverment gives them a tax amnesty. From Bloomberg:
“The largest U.S.-based companies added $206 billion to their stockpiles of offshore profits last year, parking earnings in low-tax countries until Congress gives them a reason not to.
The multinational companies have accumulated $1.95 trillion outside the U.S., up 11.8 percent from a year earlier, according to securities filings from 307 corporations reviewed by Bloomberg News.”

And there are any number of US states and cities where the tax on that $1.95 trillion could be very useful. However much of the cash pile will go to buying companies in the UK to maximise further tax advantages.

I think there is a difference between legal and advisable and perhaps it is best this gets sorted out pre any TTIP agreements which allow corporations to sue national governments. I am not quite sure BTW how Whch? can say it supports TTIP – as a member I have never been asked and I have never ever seen it discussed anywhere in Which?

Malcolm: For a more unbiased opinion which may go some way to answer some of your questions there is an interesting article in The Guardian.

Beryl, not sure this answered any of my questions! I cannot blame Amazon for arranging to minimise tax in ways that are legal – even though it is wrong that it is allowable. It is up to our government, and the EU, to set the tax framework to stop this kind of avoidance, and to withstand US pressure that seeks to perpetuate it. Proposed a year ago – how long will it take?
A distributor in the EU who markets goods within the EU must ensure they comply with any applicable EU safety standards, generally covered by compliance with CE marking regulations. Without wishing to start a debate about difficulties of CE enforcement, it seems to me that Amazon facilitate distribution of defective goods, and should be held responsibe, as any other distributor should be.

Malcolm, worth noting that plugs and sockets for domestic and similar use are the subject of national regulations throughout the EU and therefore excluded from CE marking, they specifically must NOT be marked CE! The same thing applies to adaptors of the sort that is the subject of this test purchase. Interestingly, what the EU describes as “multiple travel adaptors”, more normally known as universal travel adaptors, are within the scheme, but as far as I know there is no standard for such things, so hard to know what a CE mark means on them.

socketman, yes, I understand the problems with plugs – I was generalising on Amazon’s responsibility! There may be generic safety standards that can be cited to cover some electrical devices. Those that are electrically unsafe – inadequate creepage and clearances for wiring, not adequate for the current capacity, not correctly earthed for example, present general safety problems and liability for them should still rest with the distributor. I guess the problem at present lies with Trading standards not having the resources or the coordination to deal with this. It would be a shame if only a fatality prompted action.

I wouldn’t trust anything electrical from ebay.

A few years ago, I needed a new Nikon ION battery. Looking on ebay I found someone selling genuiune Nikon ION batteries.

Then I looked at the photo and there was a picture of the genuine Nikon IOM battery !!!

Needless to say, I went to a local camera shop and purchased a genuine one.

A quick search based on what John has posted turned up an example of a potentially dangerous LED floodlight currently sold by an Amazon Marketplace trader based in the UK. Hopefully Which? will allow me to post a link: http://www.amazon.co.uk/OXLUX®-10W-Floodlight-Cool-White/dp/B004QZJVHI/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

From the reviews (and comments on these reviews where included) of this product, it is evident that some of the floodlights do not have an earth connection. Reviewers who appreciate the danger have warned prospective purchasers, and here is one of the reviews, from January 2013: The lights I got had no earth connection at all. They have a metal case, so this is potentially lethal. Also illegal to sell them.
They are claimed to be CE marked – clearly they aren’t.
There seems to be 3-4 different variants, with different internal electronics. Some have just 2 wires in, some have 3 but with the earth wire not connected to anything, some have a connection to earth

I suppose that we should be grateful that Amazon is not deleting unfavourable reviews.

How many fatalities are needed before the government takes action over the widespread sale of dangerous goods by well respected online retailers? In the example I have given, the problem was evident from a review posted more than two years ago.

I absolutely agree. Some time ago I asked Amazon about how it made sure that its Marketplace traders were selling safe goods but did not receive a useful response. I have posted an email exchange with Amazon below.

Most of us would be wary of dealing with companies we have never heard of, but the Amazon brand somehow engenders trust, helped by Amazon’s refund policy. I would be more impressed if Amazon would take some responsibility for companies selling goods that could be dangerous.

Wavechange it seems to me you have been censored. I cannot see anything with Amazon. I assume that Whch? does have a clickthrough arrangement with Amazon which may be a problem.

The post is waiting for approval. I deleted two of the links in Amazon’s reply but accidentally left one in. I imagine that our Conversation Editors are allowed Sunday afternoons off, so it might appear tomorrow morning. 🙂

Despite being one of its ‘sponsors’ I have not contributed much to this Conversation, partly due to being busy but mainly because I agree with pretty much all that has been said. I appreciate we chose to focus on on-line purchases, but I would add that I visited the UK’s largest DIY chain today and saw an adaptor for UK use abroad that had no side earth. I note there was reference to instructions within, which may or may not say the adaptor should only be used for appliances not requiring an earth connection, but the facts remain (a) people generally do not read instructions and (b) it is possible to connect an item that ought to be earthed without connecting the earth. If these regulations are indeed devolved to member states, then we in the UK need some new regulations.

This begs the question of why the manufacturer should be producing an adaptor without an earth connection. It’s an accident waiting to happen.

We go to great lengths with some aspects of safety but ignore some important issues.

Wavechange, I think you’ll find that most of these dodgy adapters are made in the far east for virtually no cost, they won’t care how they’re made as long as they get paid, and as long as dodgy marketplace sellers buy them to sell at a huge profit, it will continue.

I agree and like you, I do not buy electrical goods from Amazon or eBay. Unfortunately, many don’t realise the problem and you will find some five star reviews on Amazon for products that others have identified as potentially dangerous. It’s great that Which? has facilitated this Conversation but I think we need their help to tackle the problem.

I agree there is a need to be cautious, but I have had good experiences as well I wanted a two pin charger for my phone to use in Denmark. I saw one at Kastrup Airport (Copenhagen) for about £35. I searched on-line and found one for about £8. I examined it carefully on receipt and I am convinced it was genuine. The markings, build quality, colour etc looked identical to the original UK charger. The same applied to my new phone. Because of the Plugs and Sockets Regulations it seems to be impossible to buy a two pin charger in the shops, but I got one on-line and again I am satisfied it is genuine. Maybe we need to look at allowing two pin chargers to be sold as accessories for use by travellers.

> Because of the Plugs and Sockets Regulations it seems to be impossible to buy a two pin charger in the shops <

That may or may not be the case, but I have a Kensington Notebook Power Adapter from John Lewis that comes with both a UK and a Euro AC power lead.

Oddly enought I needed an unearthed power adapter to use instead of the original earthed Sony power adapter, to prevent earth loop problems affecting the sound output. Sometimes earthed equipment simply cannot be used for all the potential (no pun intended) safety benefits.

I also bought a Garmin GPS travel kit from Halfords, which has a USB power module that has three interchangable plug packs, UK, Euro and US.

As both of these have the required Euro plug and USB outputs, I don't need a phone charger as well when travelling on the continent.

Indeed, I was overlooking the ‘travel’ products that include different plug options. Apple sell a travel adaptor with interchangeable plugs, which I do use abroad.

Em – It concerns me when I hear about people removing earths. 🙁 Some musicians have died as a result of this being done by themselves or others to avoid problems with mains hum with their sound systems. From what you have posted in the past, it’s very evident that you know what you are doing, but I wonder if there is a design fault with your equipment.

Scott poses an interesting challenge. I’m not keen to have Europlugs in the UK because of the risk of people plugging them into mains sockets. I used to find overseas students do this, and it’s a dangerous thing to do. Having said that, I can understand the problem for travellers.

Wavechange – I hope there isn’t a problem with this arrangement!!! I’m certainly aware of musicans who have killed themselves by disconnecting earth leads or through other faults. It’s one reason I always try to use wireless handheld mics, especially when working outdoors.

There is no way I would run unearthed active speakers, and it’s not actually mains hum, but noise from the laptop’s switched mode power supply that varies according to the state of the battery charge. Sonys are quite bad in this respect, apparently.

The noise only becomes apparent when the earthed speakers are attached to the earthed laptop, via either the inbuilt sound card mini-jack, or an external USB sound card with XLR outputs.

I’ve tried a really expensive professional DI box with ground lift to try and isolate the laptop and speakers – it doesn’t always work depending on the config and, I think, the mains wiring.

My Sony laptop comes with an earthed power adapter in the UK. In many regions, the same laptop adapter is supplied with a two pin (unearthed) plug lead, but I wasn’t even going to risk detaching the earth, as the equipment may be touched by members of the public and it would probably invalidate my public liability insurance to make such a mod myself. Hence the reputable Kensington OEM unearthed power supply bought from a reputable retailer.

All the equipment has now been PAT tested several times by a very thorough guy and I think he would have picked up on any issues. And I always use my own RCD protected power strip, unless the venue has a protected socket outlet with RCD.

You are certainly right to raise this as a concern to anyone reading this thread, but I trust the only message needed is the old Blue Peter warning: “Don’t try this at home!”.

On your other point about (not) allowing the import of Europlugs into the UK, I think we’ve got to accept it is not just some members of the British public that need protecting from their own stupidity, but the millions of visitors who now travel to the UK every year.

We really can’t expect to confiscate travellers’ Europlugs at the border and many of them will not be familiar with UK wiring. So maybe it is time we thought about safer systems, particularly in places like hotels and offices where foreign electrical equipment is more likely to be used.

One innovation is the mains wall plate with an integrated USB outlet, where most people these days can recharge their phone. But why not wall plates that can also accept Europlugs or US plugs, perhaps using a dedicated fused socket just above or below the rectangular shuttered outlet? I can’t believe the cost would be prohibitive, as this type of universal outlet is already to be found in places like India – although minus the shutters and with a poor contact surface area due to the convoluted pin configurations that have all been crammed into a single outlet.

Em, please see http://www.universalsocket.org.uk for a list of the reasons why Universal Sockets are a thoroughly bad idea, and illegal in the UK.

The installation of a dedicated US socket or European socket would not comply with the wiring regulations.

Thanks socketman.

Just to clarify, I wasn’t advoctating the use of a single universal socket outlet for the reasons given in your link, but a wall plate that accepts a range of common plugs where the necessary safety features and voltage 🙂 for each can be properly implemented. Perhaps I got a bit carried away in my thinking. But just a Europlug would be a start.

I only mention this because sometimes the “British system is best and we won’t accept any compromises” seems to cause occasional safety issues of its own in non-domestic premises. I see damaged outlets at work where someone has tried to force in a plug, perhaps jamming the shutters open or a paperclip left behind to open them via the earth. I’m sure if we could identify these people they would be disciplined, but it won’t stop it happening again. And electrical fires don’t discriminate between those who conform to BS 1363 and those who don’t. Just something for debate.

And congratulations on having your own Convo (with assistance from the usual suspects).

Em, you make very good points, but what would the socket be? There is no standard for a dedicated socket for the Europlug, only the various European sockets which accept Europlugs, so would we use a Schuko 16A socket, or create a new standard?

A UK ring circuit is protected with a 32A circuit breaker or 30A fuse, so a Schuko socket would need to incorporate local protection or be on its own circuit.

Em – On the matter of laptop power supplies and earths, I have sometimes been asked about the problem of hum when used with external audio equipment. Usually I have suggested using the laptop on battery power and that’s much easier than it used to be thanks to better batteries. If audio is all that’s needed then turning off the display greatly increases battery life.

The power supplies for with Apple laptops are supplied with both a clip on fused ‘plug’ for a UK socket and a lead with a clip on connector at one end and a moulded UK plug at the other end. Only one of these (the lead) provides an earth connection to the metal stud on the power supply. I do not understand the rationale but since all recent Apple laptops are metal-cased, I do wonder about this.

Again, I’ve kind of overlooked the fact that there is no standard for a Europlug socket. Bizarre!

The real problem with the Europlug is that it does not follow good design practice for plugs and sockets. The normal approach is to design a plug which is suitable for the proposed ratings, and for which the pin dimensions and spacings are precisely defined. A socket is then designed to mate with that plug in a way which provides good solid contact with the plug pins, holds the plug securely in place, and provides safety measures to ensure that all live parts are beyond the reach of fingers and foreign bodies (pins and screwdrivers etc). The Europlug is not the basis for a system, but a compromise which will fit to a greater or lesser extent into several incompatible sockets. The Europlug pins are defined as 4 mm in diameter, but they are intended to fit into sockets which have been designed to hold pins between 4mm and 4.8mm, thus they often do not make secure contact. In an effort to improve on this, the pins of the Europlug are placed in a way that the tips converge, this is a way to achieve a little more “grip” in the socket, it is only partially successful and is why Europlugs tend to fall out of many sockets which were not designed to accept less than 4.8mm pins.

The Europlug also has a fundamental design flaw in that it is required that the maximum diameter of the insulated part of the pin is 3.8mm, this means that there is always a shoulder at the transition from the insulated to the conducting part of the pin, this causes unnecessary wear on the socket contact during withdrawal and can also make it quite difficult to withdraw as it interferes with the interior face of the socket. It is a truly bad piece of design, and it is MANDATED by the standard!

These are really interesting points, Socketman, and I had never given any thought to the wear issue. With portable items, some plugs will be inserted very frequently.

What I would like to know is why it is considered acceptable to use a Europlug in a 16A Schuko socket? In view of the points you have made, perhaps the nominal rating of 2.5A is reasonable and using these plugs on a 16A supply is poor practice.

I do not know why some countries consider that acceptable. The time taken to for the breaker of fuse to operate in the event of an overcurrent situation depends on the amount of current flowing. A fault condition resulting in a current double the rating would cause a 16A breaker to operate after about one minute.

Consider a two-pin Europlug rated at 2.5A, with an attached flexible cord normally rated at 3A, the fault current of 32A would flow for about a minute before operation of the breaker, during which time the 3A cable could burst into flames. The same cable attached to a UK plug is protected by a 3A fuse in the plug, at 32A that fuse would blow in a couple of hundredths of a second. I know which I prefer.

That’s my concern about Shuko and similar sockets for low power electrical items.

Now consider an electric shaver with a lightweight, highly flexible cable plugged into a Schuko socket with a Europlug. There is very little cross sectional area in the conductors, which need to carry a low current under normal operating conditions. Hopefully these products contain internal fusing to protect the shaver from bursting into flames if there is a short circuit, but there is no way that there is sufficient protection for the lead. In the UK we have shaver adaptors with 1A fuses and bathroom shaver points that provide overcurrent protection.

Today CKONE has asked for photographs of what the have sent to me! This is a common request, I am not sure if it means they have no idea of what they are actually shipping, or it is simply a delaying tactic?

Meanwhile today has brought fourth yet another wrong replacement from Home Star Supplies. they originally supplied a Eurosonics universal adaptor at the beginning of June, replaced it with a shaver adaptor, and then a Schuko plug to British socket adaptor (right types, but the wrong way round!) then last week another Eurosonics universal adaptor. And today, yet another Eurosonics universal adaptor!!!!! I have to give them a point for trying, but five wrong attempts does seem excessive?

It’s starting to look like someone is buying in cheap stock and selling for a profit without actually having any knowledge or understanding of the products they’re passing on.

I might be wrong, but customer reviews and the lack of are covered by the Advertising Standard Authority’s CAP code. Advertisers have to paint a truthful picture of a product, including allowing all genuine reviews. If an advertiser picks and chooses the reviews they like, and blocks ones they don’t want to appear, that goes against the CAP code and the reviewer can make a formal complaint to ASA.

Failing that, you could try complaining to Trading Standards, but it would probably have to be an official Which complaint to get somewhere.

“Careful analysis of Amazon customer reviews often reveals that very different products are being described”

The grouping together of customer reviews for very different products is also something you can complain to ASA about, if it’s misleading enough.

SW, Following your suggestion I did raise a complaint with ASA but, after a back and forth communication, they have rejected it as being outside their remit.

I tried to post a review about my purchase to alert others to the fact that they might not receive the product that they had ordered. Socketman had warned me not to post a link because that would infringe the T&Cs of Amazon, but I gave information that would enable readers to find this Conversation. The review was not published, nor was a second attempt.

I initiated the return procedure and was asked by the Marketplace trader (CKONE) to send photos as evidence that I had been sent the wrong product, which I did. CKONE offered me a refund or 30% refund. I have replied saying that I would like the item advertised or failing that, a full refund.

I made the following constructive comments in my response to CKONE, but they elicited no response, and a subsequent request for a response has been ignored:

“Amazon should have provided a clear description of the product, specifying which EU plug(s) the adaptor will accept and there should be a photo showing the other side of the adaptor. That would help both the Marketplace traders fulfilling orders and potential customers. There’s also the safety issues of users forcing plugs into the wrong kind of adaptor and using adaptors that don’t provide an earth connection with appliances that need one.”

As I see it, the Amazon Marketplace system uses Amazon’s respected name to encourage us to purchase from unheard of companies that we might not otherwise think of using. It is a clever strategy but it appears that Amazon does not care much about safety issues.

In 2013, I purchased an item that I considered potentially unsafe, neither Amazon or the Marketplace trader payed any attention to my concerns. Having my comments disregarded is nothing new to me.

Wavechange do you have a twiitter account? If you do post a negative comment against that and I suspect Amazon will soon wake up.

Thanks William. I don’t have a Twitter account but I am well aware that some of our Conversation regulars are using it. One of the reasons that I have avoided Twitter is because of reports that users suffer junk email. I’m happy to give it a go if that can be controlled by adjusting the settings.

I get something like 1 or 2 emails a week from twitter, which just get the delete treatment.

wavechange, have you received a refund or been refused one?

I will put it in the post today. I have not been refused a refund.

Instead of returning it, what if you did an ASA complaint? That would change the product page. But you’d have to send it to ASA when they asked to see it, or upload a photo of it in their complaint form.

It all depends how wisely you spend your Amazon voucher! I wouldn’t hold your breath over an Early Day Motion. So far this has attracted 28 MP’s signatures, but they rarely seem to be debated.

I see that Voltimum are still offering a £50 Amazon for registering with them. Perhaps they should offer a book on electrical safety instead.

Amazon Marketplace: the masters of illusion…