Consumer Rights Act – will you exercise your new rights?

This just shows how consumers have to check the origin of the things they buy on-line and consider their position in the event that they are not what they wanted. The internet has given us easy access to worldwide sourcing but there are considerable additional risks if thing go wrong.

Without knowing more about the reason for the return it is not possible to give advice but if you can return the goods to a retailer why not contact one and see if they will accept a postal return? Processing a refund or replacement could be difficult, however, if the retailer was not involved in the original sale of the goods to you.

If goods are faulty, not as described, or not fit for purpose, and replacement is required, return would be free in the UK but not necessarily to other countries.

Unfortunately the EU’s concept of the “free movement of goods and services” does not apply to postal charges!

The Consumer Rights Act tells the vendor, if the customer simply changes their mind after receiving goods : “You do not have to pay the cost of returning the goods to you, provided you told the consumer before the contract was made that they would be liable for such costs.”

If however the goods do not meet the contract – faulty, not as described etc., then the DRA says, again to the vendor:
“If a consumer rejects goods, you are responsible for all reasonable costs of returning the goods to you unless the goods are being returned to the place that the consumer received them (for example, returning them to the shop in which they were bought). If the costs incurred by the consumer are more than a reasonable amount, you are still responsible for paying the reasonable portion of those costs.”

Surely that guidance can only apply to UK vendors, Malcolm?

Even if the CRA is in line with, or derives from, an EU Directive [and I am not sure that it does] it would not cover trading in other states within the EU. Such an obligation would be an onerous restriction on free trade.

Quite right John, the CRA applies to UK law. However G Lugaro implied they had stores in the UK and I would expect that law should cover them. I’m not clear whether the goods were simply not required any more or were faulty.

Perhaps I did not explain the situation clearly. I’m talking about a Spanish-based multinational (Zara). They have shops in this country (though nowhere near me). I don’t expect them to provide free returns when the goods are not faulty, though many other companies do. But I do expect them to provide a returns address in this country. Poland is the last place I would have expected to have to post things to in the case of them being unsuitable. It means that instead of it costing me £2 or £3 to return the item, it will cost about £12-, which is almost as much as thh item cost!

The Zara website gives information on returns. You have 14 days from receipt to change your mind. They say:
“Do I have to pay anything to return my items?
Returns at Zara.com are always free of charge, using our return methods.
How do I return an item?
In store: The easiest way to return an item is by taking it to one of our Zara stores, as long as the store is in the same country in which the purchase was made.
Home collection/Drop off: If you prefer, you can request a home pick-up service or a drop off return. After verifying all the details, we will send you an email to arrange the return. Please log in and follow the steps listed in my account > returns. If you are not registered at Zara.com, please use the link sent to you with your order confirmation e-mail.

Items must be in their original condition and you will be required to present the corresponding receipt. Fragrances must be returned in the original sealed and unopened packaging. Generally, you can only return items that have been sealed for hygiene reasons (e.g. underwear, swimwear or earrings) if the seal or hygiene label is still in place.

Please note that it is always necessary to have received the merchandise prior to requesting a refund.”

Does this not apply to your purchase?

Apparently not. The only paperwork that came with the parcel had a returns address in Poland. So I called their helpline to verify and they explained that they did not collect items. I don’t know what a “drop off return” entails but that wasn’t mentioned. He said the only two options were to return to a store (so drive to London or Manchester from deepest Somerset) or post at my own expense to Poland.
I’ve just checked – I should have specified that it is in fact the Zara Home store – and apparently the conditions are different to the main Zara that sells clothes, although they are part of the same company. I didn’t realise this. It says:

RETURN IN ZARA HOME STORES:
You can return items at any of our Zara Home shops in the country in which you placed the order. Remember to bring the receipt with you to the shop.

You can search for our shops here.

RETURNS THROUGH THE RETURN CENTRE:
Fill in the receipt: check the box of the item that you want to return and indicate the number of items you wish to return in the “quantity” column.

Pack the products along with the receipt.

Send your return to our return centre, paying for any shipping costs yourself.

The address is: ZARA HOME, ARVATO, Panattoni Park V, Ul. Skladowa 3, 62-064 Plewiska (Poland).

DEADLINE:
You will have a maximum of 30 days after receiving the order to make any returns.

GIFTS:
Remember that for gifts, the credit for the return will be made to the same card that paid for the order.

DEFECTIVE PRODUCTS:
Call 080 00 260 091 or send an e-mail to info@zarahome.com.

CDs and Fragrances: must be returned in the original sealed packaging.

I obviously should have checked this but it’s so ludicrous that it never crossed my mind.

Presumably a defective item will be dealt with at no cost. Changing your mind does incur a delivery charge – why this is a different policy from Zara which is also owned by Inditex in Spain seems curious. What does not seem fair is the extra cost many will incur having to return an item to Poland. For example, an untracked large letter (package) weighing up to 250g costs £1.20 to a UK address, but £3.70 to Poland. Why it cannot be returned, by post, to a UK store beats me. Perhaps Which? could advise.

Plus, the fact that it sells homeware might make it a foregone conclusion that not many of their products will fit a large letter-sized package!

Just an example. Parcelforce gives prices to Poland. You seemed to suggest the item was low value so might not be particularly large. Nevertheless it seems a rather unfair policy – except it is stated on their website, so visible presumably to those placing orders.

I would say that the information is “available” rather than “visible”. Unless you check all the small print in the more obscure sections of the website, which we probably all should but realistically most people don’t, at no point in the purchasing process do they draw attention to the fact that returns are at your own expense to an overseas address. I certainly didn’t because I was prepared to pay for any returns if necessary. At no point did it cross my mind that I would be expected to pay for international shipping!

Unfortunately the Bristol shop is not a Zara Home store. There appear to be eleven Zara Home stores in or around London and a few elsewhere. I do not understand why it is not possible to return an item by mail or carrier to a UK Zara Home store. Depending on the item, using a carrier would be much less expensive than driving to London and back. I don’t think what Zara/Zara Home are doing is unlawful but it is certainly not helpful – and how is the average shopper to know that the two retailers, though connected and both having Zara in their titles, operate completely differently?

As I said previously, this just shows how consumers have to check the origin of the things they buy on-line and consider their position in the event that they are not what they wanted. Getting all relevant information is essential.

As John Ward has pointed out, although it is technically the same company, Zara Home purchases cannot be returned to an ordinary Zara shop. I didn’t read the fine print, which I suppose I should have, but as I say, I was perfectly happy to pay the return shipping. I just never expected it to be overseas. As for it not being illegal, I think it should be. If you operate in a given country, sell online and deliver AS THOUGH IT WERE A LOCAL SET UP, you should be required to provide a returns address in that country or else display a conspicuous warning, much like the one all websites are now required to display about cookies etc. It’s not that hard. Isn’t that something that consumer protection legislation should consider? I find their current practice dishonest. And if their feeds on social media are anything to go by, I’m not the only one! This particular complaint keeps cropping up, in addition to many other customer service complaints.

I agree with you, GLugaro. The Zara Home UK policy is an attempt to deny consumers their rights under the distance selling regulations to return goods that are unsuitable [albeit contractualy compliant] by making it prohibitively expensive and logistically inconvenient by limiting the choice of carrier.

On-line retailers are feeling the pressure of the CRA as consumers exercise their rights to return goods they don’t want. In order to capture trade they have offered free carriage [as Zara the fashiion store do] and find it hard under competition to retreat from that. The worry is that other firms will follow a similar policy of off-shoring their returns facility. I feel that should be outlawed, or at least made the subject of a bold declaration on any website and especially on the checkout page. I would hope this bad policy gets well publicised and I think Which? should call the company out for its unfair treatment of customers.

Lindsay-In a save money exercise the surface coating on many domestic appliances has been downgraded from high quality STOVE enameled surface covering to spray on stuff that actually has instructions to say you cant use corrosive materials to clean them .As you have found they discolour over time due to heat and your right its in the instruction manuals of many products . In days gone by old Ford cars built in the UK rusted quickly and were called “rust buckets ” due to the thin metal and poor coatings , things have changed now but it seems domestic products are taking a leaf out of the old cars books . The problem now is the disclaimer that any sort of blemishes occurring are not covered by guarantee and many people like yourself have tried claiming the companies but they deny liability. MY old STOVE enameled cooker doesn’t blemish because its got a thick coating on it , chips maybe but no blemishes and I have used all sorts of corrosive cleaning material on it.

Have a look at your guarantee or warranty, Lindsay. They generally exclude cosmetic issues, so unless the deterioration of a component also causes a functional problem or a safety issue, I don’t think you are covered. It is common for white plastics to become beige or worse within a few years, encouraging owners to replace products that are still working. It would be interesting to know which make and model of hob you are referring to and what has discoloured.

What you get now Wavechange is spray on enamel , you can actually buy the stuff to “rejuvenate ” your cooker or stove or fire surround . Some suppliers sell two ranges one with spray on enamel and one with STOVE enamel -guess which is the dearer ? This is a big issue on many websites. My cooker is at least 15 years old NO blemishes on the enamel.

I had not realised that painted enamel could discolour, though I’m aware of other problems. Stove enamel can chip but otherwise it is extremely durable.

It would depend whether the discolouration was cosmetic, or whether it indicated degradation in material that would lead to a safety problem. The Sale of Goods Act and Consumer Rights Act do not regard cosmetic changes as constituting lack of durability (one of the criteria that can be the cause of a legal remedy).

The finish is often heat cured powder paint – polyester, epoxy or a blend. There are more expensive powders with higher heat resistance but polyester is pretty good. Not a spray on paint found in an aerosol (sold to give a cheap repair). White finishes will discolour – cream to beige usually – if subjected regularly to a higher temperature than they are designed for.

In other words malcolm -they are “not up to the job ” even the “better stuff ” as backed up by 100,s of complaints on UK websites, and don’t use bleach or corrosive material .

Uhm, guys…

You don’t know nothing. 😉

You don’t know what hob it is. How old it is. What the damage is. What the material is, could be enamel, could be stainless, could be glass. What use it’s subjected to. What it’s been cleaned with.

So, ehm, maybe just a thought here… get all the facts or at least some of them before going off on a rant.

K.

Rants ? – facts more like from 100,s of consumers in the UK complaining of exactly this subject but you obviously think they are all wrong and its a CON .Theory/ “Fake News ” /etc ? no I will stick with the facts before me -saving money by replacing GENUINE top quality stove enameled cookers with with spray on enamel . Lets get this straight I have worked on -repaired BOTH stove enameling conveyor belts , with the appropriate spraying machinery AND the ovens that they went into , watched -repaired it- and seen first hand ALL the factory actions relating to stove enameling – the REAL stove enameling not the modern artificial thin , easily affected by chemicals etc pseudo “enameling “.

The question asked “was it legal” is what I tried to answer with reference to SoGA and CRA. Powder coating is not spray on enamel, it is heat cured (cross linked) thermosetting material usual based on epoxy and polyester. A medium temperature resistant polyester can handle working temperatures of 300C. It also has good chemical resistance. Powder paint, and similar, are widely used on domestic appliances and similar. Stove enamel was basically a glass coating, brittle – hence it chipped – but very resistant to heat, abrasion and chemicals.

Without *FACTS* you can say all that about this case?

Nobody even knows if it is enamelled, which was the point, it is all too possible you are meandering way off base as that is an unknown.

Will your comments regarding enamelling be relevant then if it is a stainless hob top?

K.

Kenneth the majority aint complaining of SS tops but this modern pseudo enamel – and by the 100,s.

Could you give a source for all these complaints, duncan? What do you mean by “pseudo enamel”?

I suggest you have a look at the advice provided by Which? http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/l/second-hand-goods

My understanding is that manufacturers’ guarantees for consumer goods are not usually transferrable, though it is common for double glazing, for example, to have a transferrable guarantee. It’s the first thing to check.

Presumably the phone was working at the time of purchase otherwise you would have rights against the seller.

As I understand the Consumer Rights Act, you have the same rights with secondhand goods as with new – if bought from a trader as opposed to a private transaction. If a fault develops within the first 6 months then you have the option of a repair or replacement, and if the repair does not work or either is not possible, a full refund. The manufacturer is correct I believe to reject it as a warranty claim if repaired “illegaly” but that is the vendors responsibility and strengthens your own case.

If the phone was purchased using a credit card, it is possible to claim against the card company: http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/section-75-of-the-consumer-credit-act

With computers it is worth checking to make sure there is not a simple problem before pursuing your rights against the retailer under the Consumer Rights Act. There is plenty of advice online. For example, does the computer start up in Safe Mode?

if you have not damaged the computer the Consumer Rights Act has a clause that requires a product to be “durable” = last what a normal person would regard as a reasonable time, given sensible factors such as the price paid. You could remind the retailer of this requirement and if they are difficult threaten them with a small claims court action (or whatever it is now called).

Adam / all,

The linked Which? article says:

“After the first six months the burden is on you to prove that the product was faulty at the time of delivery.
In practice, this may require some form of expert report, opinion or evidence of similar problems across the product range.
You have six years to take a claim to the small claims court for faulty goods in England, Wales and Northern Ireland and five years in Scotland. ”

So it may be theoretically possible to prove a laptop hard drive ought to last for more than 13 months and argue that one that didn’t must have been defective from the start.

It might not be easy however – because not all hard drives last forever. The original one in my current work desktop only lasted about two years, otherwise they normally do much better than than – unless dropped.

Otherwise, it should not cost a small fortune to get a new drive fitted to a laptop. For those of us with DIY skills, the only cost would be the disk drive itself.

You could contact Citizens Advice and they are likely to pass the case to Trading Standards. When I approached TS they said I had a strong case but said they would not intervene unless they had reports of similar problems. Mentioning that I had contacted TS resulted in a prompt refund from the company that had taken my money but failed to repair my TV after nine months. It might be worth subscribing to Which? Legal and following their advice. You could contact the ombudsman or use the small claims court but in your circumstance I would be tempted to sort out the problem myself. It depends how much time you can devote to the case. Best of luck.

There are so few reported court claim cases in the County Court that it is very difficult to predict which way it would go. Whether you would have a good claim will depend on the contract you entered into with the hotel. If the terms make it clear that the deposit is non-refundable then I expect the hotel would successfully defend itself – this policy seems to be quite normal in the travel and hospitality industry. Whether that would be deemed an unfair contract term is another possibility, but again speculation. Although the hotel has re-sold the booking, I presume it retains your deposit against the possibility that the second client defaults.

If you wish to claim the entire deposit of £1,500 the court fee would be £70 on-line or £80 on paper. If you scaled it back to £1,000 it would only save you £10 by either method. You can also claim interest on the amount at stake.There could be other costs, but I think it is worth a punt. You would be expected to have attempted to reach a settlement by using a civil mediation provider which would probably be quicker and cheaper than going to court. It would be good if you could report back on your experience with a claim because there are so few examples of this sort of problem being resolved.

For more information on the process and how to pursue a claim, look at –
https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/overview

no chance

Please keep us posted with how you get on. It sounds like you have a counter claim for compensation.

Its a pity you cant -“name +shame ” it on Which.

There’s no restriction – so long as it is honest and truthful. Another contributor reported on a used car sale problem a few months back and gave the name and location of the dealer. I was thus able to look up their website and obtain additional information that might have helped the correspondent with her claim. Naming is not a problem – shaming is best withheld until all the facts are established conclusively.

The fear of exposure is one of the few things that keep some traders on the straight and narrow!

Although we must remember we only hear one side of the story, usually from a party that considers themselves aggrieved. Which? must be careful to avoid people using Convos to make unfounded allegations that could cause damage to innocent parties. Best under those circumstances if Which? wants the allegation pursued to investigate itself, as it does in “Brief cases”. occasionally.

That is undoubtedly right, Malcolm, but I think we should also trust people to be honest and truthful in their reports and to comply with the community guidelines. Many of these Conversations are full of the names of errant companies from double glazing to solar panels to timeshares, so it can’t be a big problem for Which? and it would be impossible for Which? to take up every complaint. After all, that is the job of Trading Standards which is paid for by all council taxpayers whereas Which?s interventions come entirely at the cost of their subscribers [the ‘commercial’ ventures not contributing much if anything to the organisation’s disposable funds].

If only we had proper Trading Standards, eh? There are those who are not honest and truthful who could use the Convo to make unfounded allegations. Naming is one thing, “naming and shaming” as proposed is quite different and needs to be done only on the basis of sound evidence. I would hope that in any “naming” comment Which? would invite the named party to contribute their side of the story. The danger is then getting the Convos used as a two party ding dong. It might be entertaining but I’m not sure if it has that role.

I think the balance is about right at the moment, but I agree it would be unfortunate if the Conversations became used as a form of litigation or just acrimony. As to Trading Standards, I really think we should be pushing as many cases as possible in that direction now [via Citizens Advice] so that the pressure starts to be felt. People should also start to use their MP’s more to complain about failing public services, including those that have been privatised and have a regulator.

People’s problems and complaints are a good resource for Which? for identifying the key consumer concerns that need to be tackled, and I think it should continue to guide people on how to get redress through its fact sheets and web ‘tools’.

Which? Conversation, too, is an effective way of helping people with advice and support, and this has grown considerably over recent years. But every case we deal with is another one that is not being handled by the responsible authorities and is therefore not being logged and recorded as evidence of the scale of the problem. It amazes me how many nuisance and scam phone calls are being reported through this site but that means the pressure is being taken off Ofcom and the ICO to address the problem [although Which? might be logging them – I am not sure].

Your perception is spot on John I firmly believe Which is a “leg ” of the government (indirect ) , in the sense that it puts forward views to see what public opinion is . I don’t mind that it gives me an intellectual pursuit and mental challenge but your right again its a type of “buffer ” for the public to get it out their system but I was pleased when a convo starter said that they will be taking action thats all thats needed-hope for the future and the thought —“somebody is going to do something ” there are a lot worse public “help ” websites than Which , and Which whether some believe it or not does get government attention. .

Which? has to exercise extreme caution over allowing ‘shaming’. It’s Which? that becomes liable for any subsequent legal action mounted by an aggrieved party and not the person who decided to post the comment.

In theory as long as what is posted can be proved in a court of law then it’s okay to post it, but by their very nature some individuals might have both the resources and motivation to seek redress. This is one reason why I admire Which? in publishing an open forum. It takes a lot of monitoring.

I agree, Ian. I am against shaming as a vindictive process, but if action by the responsible authorities eventually exposes companies as bad traders that has a corrective effect on the industry at large. Getting clear cases of unlawful practice into the proper enforcement regime where the media can legitimately report on them should be our aim I feel.

Unfortunately a lot of the bad commercial practices that cause disproportionate irritation and distress to consumers are below the radar of the authorities, end up getting confidentially compensated away, and have little corrective effect on the standard of trading [let alone on Trading Standards].

We need to encourage consumers to keep reporting their problems for evidential purposes but whether we should aim to remedy them within the Which? community is debatable.

Just as a matter of interest I should like to know the percentage of cases handled by Which? Legal that have a successful outcome. We read about a few in the “Brief Cases” articles but it would be good to see the bigger picture.

Yes; that would be very interesting.

Shani a timing chain stretches over time but there is a spring loaded tensioner to keep it from slipping . Even if the links stretched it would effect the performance to a slight degree it would certainly not cut the engine out unless it was causing overheating . Timing chains are tougher than belts which have to be changed at approx 40,000 miles I should know I had both and the tensioner jammed but it did not cause an engine blowup on my timing belt Ford while my previous Ford was chain driven but never needed changing even after 120,000 miles . 33,000 miles ?? no way should the chain be in need of changing unless there is a manufacturers design flaw in it and knowing a lot about old Reynolds chains for my old British motorbikes they lasted a long time and so did the sprockets unless badly maintained. You have either a fuel/ ignition/ or faulty engine management unit . Does it overheat ? When I checked on the web there are webpages full of this complaint relating to Nissan one guy even changed the engine -no result ! nearest it could be is the ECU or its connections but there is a large number of other components that can be faulty driving some guys “up the creek ” . Check up what the recalls involved and I will check further.

The problem could even be as simple as a split rubber hose. Check all your hoses for a split or rodent nibble and make sure all the ends are securely in place.

This is an interesting query. Whether you have any rights to compensation probably depends on what it says in the terms and conditions. Given the vagaries of weather and sea conditions I should be surprised if the operators did not have an escape clause of no liability in the event of disruption of the service. Furthermore, the timetable will not be set in stone and can probably be altered at any time by the company. But that is not the same as not providing enough hovercraft to cover the advertised service.

If the company are saving money by operating a severely restricted service [as they will be in fuel, maintenance and labour costs alone] then there is a strong case for expecting the operator to make a partial reimbursement of the season ticket charges [if that is how you pay] or to reduce the fares generally. The company might even be receiving compensation or insurance payments for the non-availability of the new craft [and if not, why not?]. Perhaps a group of regular passengers should get together and put a claim in to the company. Whether this falls within the scope of the Consumer Rights Act will probably need a lawyer’s opinion because it will hinge on the contract between you and the operator.

What you need to avoid is getting into a situation where the operator gives you back your money but says you cannot use the service in future.

In my experience this is very rare with mainstream branded light bulbs. What type are you having a problem with – halogen (filament) and what make? Inferior brands may well have insufficient protection.

The old filament household lamps made by the major manufacturers had a “Ballotini” fuse in the stem – tiny glass beads surrounding a fuse wire to absorb the shock when the lamp might eventually blow. Otherwise an arc could develop across the broken filament and destroy the glass bulb. Cheap ones omitted this and left the light bulb at risk.

I don’t recall fuses in ‘golfball’ bulbs of any brand, presumably because of the lack of space. I’m not sure about ‘candle’ bulbs but I had one explode when staying with friends over Christmas.

Ballotini fuses were short so could be accommodated in smaller lamps. This is an explanation of their role. http://www.lamptech.co.uk/Documents/IN%20Fusing.htm

I mentioned a candle bulb (old incandescent type rather than halogen) that exploded. What happened was the glass bulb was propelled across the room and landed intact on the carpet several metres away, leaving the metal cap in the wall light. The circuit breaker tripped. I wondered about the cause of the explosion and maybe it was a Ballotini fuse that was too short.

That is an unfortunate experience, Marion. Were all the lamps of the same make? I have never had this problem with lamps made by Philips, GEC, Osram or own-label lamps sold in Sainsbury, Tesco, Morrison, Homebase, B&Q. A lot of small shops sell cheap unknown makes but buying them is a risk.

If you have other lamps of the same type it might be worth replacing them now before they blow.

If a lamp has exploded take great care when extracting the remains from the lampholder – it is best to isolate the circuit at the consumer unit or at the very least switch the wall switch off and tape over the switch to prevent it being accidentally turned on.

More likely no fuse and the filament broke, allowed an arc, and caused the propelling force. The cement that joined the cap to the bulb may have been substandard or failed. Ballotini fuses were used in smaller lamps because they could be made shorter than other types of fuse. Whether your lamp has such a fuse, or any fuse, could have caused the CB to trip.

I cannot be sure but one thing I am certain about was that the bulb was marked with well-known brand name. Circuit breakers often trip because the are slower acting than the fuses in bulbs, though there is no doubt that the fuses are a worthwhile safety feature.

Just a note of caution to add to John’s excellent advice. I would always switch the lighting circuit off at the consumer unit. It is not unknown for L and N to be wired incorrectly at a single pole light switch, and if that were the case you might still leave a circuit live if you just turned the switch to off. And if it is a ganged switch on, say the stairs, you’d have to be double sure the right one was off. Easier to be safe than sorry.

A pair if insulated narrow-nosed pliers inserted into the cap (if the bulb has disappeared or is broken) and held open while pushing and turning can help remove it (and protect your fingers).

Another piece of advice is to ensure that the circuit breakers or fuses in the consumer unit are properly labelled. I have seen many examples where the labelling has been inadequate. Unless you are certain that you have the right circuit breaker the only safe option is to turn of the main switch.

What bulbs that you’ve bought have exploded, and what brand Marion?

I suggest you look at LED bulbs, Marion. Hopefully they are safer and they will certainly save electricity.

As we have seen elsewhere, “cheap” LED bulbs can be electrically hazardous and interfere with radio reception. Lamps, if properly made, should not explode.

It is important to distinguish between counterfeit products and cheaper branded ones. In a Conversation about LED bulbs we had a favourable post this morning about Lumilife lamps, which are sold online at competitive prices. The poster had used a frequency analyser to demonstrate that there was not a problem with radio interference. There are many cheaper products that are not electrically unsafe.

The Consumer Rights act 20125 – explained – says:
“Key rights about the goods, under the Act
3. The goods must be of satisfactory quality;
4. The goods must be fit for a particular purpose the consumer has made known
5. The goods should match any description, sample or model by reference to which they were supplied”

So you are fully entitled to reject the goods for a refund or a satisfactory replacement. As you say, black and white. Hopefully you have a record / sample on which your choice was based.

If this is a design feature with which the customer would not normally need to interact, I do not think it is necessary to include it in the handbook – desirable yes. Certainly you should be told how to enter the car if if the electric locking fails, for whatever reason. Apart from the commendable “design feature” that tries to reserve charge to start the engine your battery may be completely discharged through your own action – left a light on for example, or a defective or end-of-life battery. However if the design feature develops a fault due to defective manufacture or a defective component then consumer law for remedy would apply. Personally I believe there should be a manual lock on both front doors for the reasons you give.

A few Convos ago this same problem was raised by a disenchanted owner. I cannot remember when.

malcolmr – I think you have missed the point. The point is that products today are often overly complicated/sophisticated, meaning that there is a high probability of there being unexpected adverse consequence arising from the complicated design i.e. it is a ‘hidden manufacturing defect’. The old SoGA didn’t protect consumers against such defective designs, and neither does the new CRA2015. Thinking of buying a complex product – perhaps with microprocessor based control systems? – then buyer beware!

If a product has a fault in the first 6 months it is assumed to be there at the beginning and you can claim redress. After that you need to show a fault existed which, admittedly, is not easy if yours is on its own. if, however, the fault is apparent in many other examples of the product then the case is stronger and redress is available. My point was however in defining what a “fault” is. Something meant to work in a particular way that does not would be a fault, in my view. Something that is a design feature but does not appeal to you is not a fault in my view, and I rather thought this was where your comment was coming from.

I remember the Conversation too, Malcolm, and it alerted me to the fact that my car has only one manual lock, on the driver’s side. 🙁

Lead-acid car batteries naturally self-discharge and the rate increases with age. Modern cars use power even if parked. For example, the central locking system uses power to be able to detect the remote control, and the alarm uses power. There is no need to leave a light on and it is not difficult to imagine why a car might be left unused for a few months.

A reasonable person would, surely, conclude that a design fault exists, and it was obviously present at the time of manufacturer There is no doubt that both doors need to have key-operated locks so that the car can be opened even if one door is against a wall – for example in a garage.

For a car manufacturer to provide only a single manual lock is inexcusable, in my opinion. I thought the same about the older cars that had the wipers on the ‘wrong side’ of the windscreen because they had been designed for sale in Europe etc. rather than in the UK.

I cannot find the Convo – i think it was a couple of years ago. I seem to remember a number of interesting points were made when someone had a problem with their Land Rover in a narrow garage kept the car. They also, from memory, kept up a dispute with their seller for 3 years while the car depreciated and wasn’t moved . I believe the outcome was not favourable.

I checked my old Espace at the time and found it also had a manual lock on one side only – the passenger side. My new German car has just one key entry but, sensibly, that is on the driver’s side. My even older Espace is much more sensible – the key entry is on both sides and as the central locking no longer works properly this is even more useful.

Like you I commented that two key locking doors would be sensible.