Broadband must be superfast for everyone

By that logic the post office should only deliver to the mainland because most people don’t post to other areas or people who live in remote areas should pay more for electricity and water. The costs per person of a fair a universal service are small, but the costs involved for people who work on our farms or support our rural economy is great.

I have ordered goods for delivery to friends living in the highlands of Scotland. I have been charged extra for delivery compared with what I have to pay to have the same goods delivered to me in England. The recipients told me they regularly pay supplements for delivery of goods ordered online.

To reply to Athony Mitchell’s challenge, I was not commenting on the universal need for adequate broadband but on the Which? campaign for it to also be superfast – an extra step that may be superfluous.

That can work both ways. I have friends who live on the NW coast near Gairloch. At one stage they experimented with retailing locally caught seafood at a local harbour and bought a “fish trailer” for this on ebay. The price included delivery within the UK – and the seller turned out to be in Kent. Nonetheless, the seller honoured his pledge and delivered it to NW Scotland.

I respectfully disagree applications and functionality now require faster download speeds. The same download speeds which allow video streaming and gaming also allow families to talk over Skype. It is also needed by local businesses such as those of my cousin which need higher speeds to upload photos/videos to her website or my aunt and uncle who are farmers and need to use websites and online ordering, which now includes videos and not just photos of products and services they need to buy. I would also note that thanks to the internet there are no DVD rental shops and the post office no longer process applications for things like EHICs.

Sadly it is true the competitors to Royal Mail are not required to honour the universal service obligation which also I think is wrong.

No disrespect Anthony as you sound sincere but know you know the Real charges of providing FTTP for remote or long copper lines (miles ) to a house ? it could reach £10000 or more . Now multiply that by the 5 % of the UK population . Have you thought about the engineering work required ? . But okay I will ask a question do you haver FTTC ? if so you can ask for FTTPoD which is=fibre to the premises on demand . One off fixed charge of £500 +VAT monthly rental =approx £40 –one off distance charge (cost of building the network ) approx =£2/metre , also Excess Construction Charge (ECC) which could add £1000,s to the bill . I realise you want the tax payers to pay for it as no private company with shareholders , in their right mind ,be it BT or others is wiling to see a massive drop in their income ,but can you see the majority of the public dont want to pay it in taxes and make their voice heard very loudly and honestly I cant see an argument against a majority in this case . Could you present a practical answer to this problem ?

If the internet is a trader’s shop-front then they will have to pay for it as they would for a place on the high street. We need to get basic broadband functionality in the 10-20 Mbps range to every property that has a landline. This includes the highlands and islands. The things the Post Office have stopped processing like [EHIC applications] can be done on line at quite low speeds or by printing-off and posting. Pre-internet means of communication are still available.

John if you mean BT have got to pay say £30 billion ,its never going to happen . BT are one ,if not the biggest provider of jobs in the UK , millions own shares in it as well as a lot of BT pensioners that amount of money would hit them all hard , and who benefits ,not BT but all the other private telephone companies who will get something for nothing and their shareholders will be laughing all the way to the bank.

The Intro tells us that the government has pledged to bring fast broadband to 95% of the UK by 2020. It goes on to say “We’re now told superfast broadband will reach at least 95% of the country by 2017 and the new ‘Universal Service Obligation’ will only give you a legal right to a fast connection, not superfast“. So I deduce from that that there will be 100% fast coverage by 2020. The government is paying for this and telecoms providers will no doubt have to send an invoice to BIS or whoever in order to get their expenditure back.

Thank you for that Duncan. That is useful info. It supports the point I made in a previous Conversation that 10-20 Mbps is sufficient for normal household requirements. If five people want to go on line on the same line simultaneously that does not justify higher capacity at public expense [a second line might be the answer].

I support Derek P’s comments as well.

As soon as I see a new Conversation is authored by Peter Vicary Smith I realise it is a curve ball thrown in to get our backs up and grab the headlines. “Fast” is fast enough for most but let’s get it everywhere first and then attend to more pressing issues.

David – nobody held a gun to the head of EVERY telephone company other than BT and said –NO ! only BT can work with HMG to install widespread fibre broadband coverage . Every single one of them REFUSED ,why , their shareholders wouldnt allow it . BT is a private company ,you voted for it to be privatised shouting ,its time private enterprise took over . Are you honestly telling me that other private companies ,even with government help will provide FTTP at low cost ? .They wont . I take it you live on a Scottish Western Island ? which is limited in its line provision to BT because nobody else wants to provide to a service that will lose it money . It can be line + microwave provision and yes it can be very slow but haven’t you heard Nicola,s providing extra grants to BT in excess of HMG to help people in your situation ,so in the interests of practicality and even handedness can you provide the Scottish Island you live in so I can check it out ? Now that would be only fair , wouldn’t it ? And yes I know about satellite and wireless provision I take it it is too dear for you ? although even that might be subsidized by Holyrood .

David – What I have suggested would give you 10-20 Mbps instead of your present 2 Mbps. The outreach is rolling now and I can see that, being in the Highlands, you might be at the end of the line for upgrading, but I should think your distance of only 3.5 from an 80 Mbps cabinet should put you in an advantageous position.

Phil-of coarse the government grant to BT is “your ” money (taxpayers ) but are you really saying all those companies complaining in computer mags that they are hard done by can install FTTP ,or are we talking Wireless ? You do know the cost is many 10,s of billions of £££ to provide FTTP , which private firms will do that rather than just complain ? . You want BT to outlay infrastructure but dont want contributions from other telephone companies ? BT offers other companies when new ducting and cable are installed in new estates the chance of contributing most dont . Does Virgin media allow others to use their ducting +cable ? . Have we an assurance( in writng ) that those private companies will provide 100 % of the UK population with FTTP

I live in Portishead n Bristol. I have periods when I can’t even watch sky. Halford the town is done but not the new houses. BT Say it’s not their responsibility and Open Reach say it the Councils fault in W-S-M for not letting them? Wrote to Council & they said permissions have been given 2 yrs ago. Pill village 2 miles away has super broadband. So fed up

Something not quite right here Lin . Is it because BT was barred from your area and another ISP allowed to take over the area ? If so BT have no, legal jurisdiction to supply service there. If the new houses ,as you say were “not done ” that is the responsibility of the builders for not allowing Openreach to install their plant , they have got to give legal permission to carry out the work . I will try to check up on your area.

Julian -do you live in a community ? , if so you can get together and apply for wireless broadband . I take it you have FTTC but you are a long distance from the cabinet . or have you 4G mobile? you can tether it to your computer. What has BT told you as regards why you cant be upgraded ?.

LIn- there could be a legal issue here so I dont know how Which could help ? Openreach may need access to land that is privately owned and cant now insist on access like the old GPO did. What I have found is a company in Portishead called Iconnect who have an engineer called Shane who gets 5 stars from homes and businesses alike in sorting out broadband problems ,he might have more local knowledge on your problem . I dont want to post his tele number etc as it might be construed that I was advertising his company.

I don’t think the government has ever promised universal superfast broadband, Bishbut. It is coming to some areas because the telecoms providers see a marketing potential and because there is little extra cost in installing the additional capacity at the time of extending the network, civil engineering being the biggest cost element. Solo and small cluster locations at long distances from the network should get fast broadband however.

Rosemary -if you are miles from the street cabinet , yes it wont make a big difference to the speed but it should be a slight improvement as that moves the exchange speed to the cabinet so cutting down the long run of copper from your home to the exchange . Sky would probably tell you they cannot increase your speed either as they wont be banned from an old copper run of cable . If you live in a village you can get together and apply for wireless broadband Holyrood will help with grants , satellite will be too dear for you (unless you can afford it ) . It is a fact of life in the engineering sense that unless you get FTTP (fibre to the premises ) you will not get high speeds as you live in an isolated position. i take it you want to watch and download films etc and your speed is not high enough ? What area of Aberdeen to you live in so I can check ?

If you live in a new build estate Zibi and only have copper then your estate owners and builders wouldnt pay for it . Any(excluding Virgin Media ) telephone company will install basic service unless paid for FTTP (fibre to the premises ) . No suitable line can mean copper underground cable and it depends whether you have FTTC (fibre to the cabinet ) and copper to your home on whether the speed is high or not . If you have FTTC and you have 3 Mbps then logically the housing estate is a long way from the cabinet -ie- your estate is in the country or an isolated piece of land . Or your cabinet has not been upgraded to FTTC . Its down to money and distance . Why dont you ask the estate manager why your speed is too slow and why they wouldnt pay for FTTP . You pay rental on your line as it has to be maintained . BT do BT basic + broadband its a cheap basic package but you need to be getting help from the state to apply. Otherwise most companies have a minimum package which takes in “up to 20 Mbps ” . It might be “all wrong ” in this country but Britain doesnt heavily subsidize broadband from the tax payers like some European countries there are politics involved.

It had not occurred to me that new estates would be provided with copper broadband. I wonder how long it will be before this is ripped up or abandoned, making way for fibre broadband.

As soon as somebody pays for it wavechange . I spent some time checking into provision of telephone lines to new estates over the years and its entirely down to profits by the company building the houses , many wont even pay for basic line installation , many more just throw a cable in the garden 6 inches under the earth only to be dug up or the weather expose it –cheapskates the lot of them ! People see lovely pictures of homes in a country setting with flowers in the garden , sun in the sky and happy smiling home owners in TV adverts etc. but never come down to earth enough to realise one thing -UTILITIES .

Indeed. I will comment on a utility problem that I have in another Convo.

Jim- if the village cabinet has been enabled for FTTC then that cabinet is like the telephone exchange as far as distance is concerned . If you are getting less than 1Mbps and are paying for a fibre connection in your telephone bundle then you have the right of cancellation due to non-compliance of contract but if you are still on the old copper line and only paying for that then you cannot get any advantage just because there is a FTTC installation . If you are paying for a fibre connection then that speed would mean you are 2 miles or more from the cabinet , it must be a very long village. Without more information I cannot help you more. -please tell me how far you are from the cabinet and whether you upgraded to fibre with a HH5 if you are a BT customer. .

AS this comment comes up all the time here is a list of average speeds compared to distance for FTTC –150m =80Mbps -200m=65Mbps -300m=45Mbps -I wont go through them all but – 1000m =24Mbps 1500m=15Mbps (this equals a mile ,nearly ) so you see even if you have fibre the speed drops substantially with distance and remember wi-fi can cut the speed in half .

Ian I appreciate your relisation that contrary to popular thinking Local Network Cable doesnt always travel in a straight line .You put the proposition that the Local Network should be “rewired ” –have you thought seriously about the costs in engineering involved in doing this throughout the UK ? Its estimated it would cost for FTTC which would use existing ducting £30 billion and more for 100 % coverage . What you want would involve digging up roads Nationwide , trying to get permission from private owners to let new channels be made through their property . Openreach would need to employ another 100,000 employees , it would be a major national industrial effort to achieve it costing £100,s of Billions ,its never going to happen . Your comment -your copper line is quicker than fibre is interesting when you say your cabinet is just outside the telephone exchange , then you would need FTTP , you could apply for that but 12Mbps isnt too bad in real life , I lived with 4.5Mbps for years. I understand why you would push the for restructuring of local lines but the cost is too great .

Duncan, first of all, thanks for your response. I completely agree that the country simply cannot, at this time, afford to retire the entire network, desirable though that would be. What I was, perhaps naively, suggesting was for there to be the possibility of the copper telephone line being moved from an existing cabinet to one in closer proximity to the premises requiring a fibre connection. The “sister” FTTC cabinet could then be used for the final copper connection. I have no idea if this would be technically possible but it strikes me that better use could be made of existing copper and fibre cabinets by some ad-hoc rewiring. Just a thought!

Ian-The transfer of your “D” side to another cabinet or even ,if as you say the cabinet is just outside the exchange , is technically possible but it would mean transferring it to another local cable cabinet which would mean a cable run under the ground between cabinets . Now this has been done in the past between copper cabinets and now between a fibre cabinet and a local copper run but the distance is short and access was easy . What could be done in your case is a direct cable feed into the exchange (no cabinet ) this is an actual fact in many areas but it would still mean you would need FTTP -ie-fibre all the way to your house , not impossible but we are back to cost. What BT is trialling as we speak is a combination of fibre and copper -ie-FTTC its called BT-G FAST technology which gives up to 800Mbps so even if you are a mile away your speed would shoot up . You could ask BT if you could get that even if you put your name down for it . I am hampered in checking up posters problems as I would need personal details which , obviously , are not allowed on Which otherwise I could check into your problem deeper.

Vicessa your and Ian,s post have something in common in that it is probable given the speed you gave me that this cabinet of not the one you come off OR it is not a FTTC cabinet . Check out the number on it go to openreach,s website input your address and you should find out if this is your cabinet , it will tell you if you can get a FTTC line or not as well . Your right 3.1Mbps is slow if the cabinet you come off is 200M from you but you say you pay a minimal amount suggesting its an all-copper line . If you find your cabinet is FTTC “ready ” you can apply for a fibre connection which ,if you are really only 200M from the cabinet (underground cable doesnt always go direct ) would greatly increase your speed .

This is due to an underestimation of those requiring fibre broadband at each cabinet OR a limited amount of money available to rewire the “E” side (exchange ) fibre cable . I got in early for applying for fibre from BT as I asked them to notify me when it was installed , I live in a village and it didnt take long before the fibre cable was full to capacity within a year a new underground fibre cable was installed increasing capacity so others got this service (FTTC ) . Its down to money Keith and grants .

My god Alan ! a VERY sensible post which gets “I agree ” from me . But what you are up against is the many voices that say –too much tax payers money in grants to BT but what you envisage is a “dream ” I have in boosting this countries economy and your dead right, instead of boosting City profits. Good thinking !