We’ve had it ‘up to’ here with broadband ads

“Fibre to the cabinet (FTTC) eliminates this disparity” – sorry, that’s not correct. There are still issues concerning distance, and in part what cable is used. I’m in a semi in a cul-de-sac, served by aluminium (not copper) cabling that goes “around the houses” (actually 5 blocks of flats, 2 low, 3 very high, so around 300+ households at a guess) to a cabinet around 600 meters away.

Speed estimate on FTTC for my home is 33.5 Mbps, but the takeaway across the road behind my house (and their fibre cabinet is 30 feet from my back window) has an estimate of 67 Mbps. It’s down to both distance and cable type (and many, many problems, according to some of the Openreach engineers I’ve spoken to).

You can also find some locations in the UK which will not get even 30 Mbps, let alone 60-75 Mbps, where their FTTC is only offering 15 Mbps. Down to location, cabling, etc.

I agree with all your other points, but there are quite a variety of speeds available even on FTTC (and I agree, if it was the other type, Fibre To The Premises, the speed would not be susceptible to the vagaries of the cabling or interference like electric fences, Christmas lights, etc), and felt that people should be aware there is still no “guarantee” of the highest (75 Mbps and above) speeds for ALL….

Peter you say you are served by aluminium instead of copper. I was under the impression that BT had removed all aluminium cable from its network . This was tried in the 70,s I should know as one of the cabinets it was tried at beside a busy road caused the cable to break and I had to visit customers to make sure that the copper replacement was working okay. The city I worked in didnt fit ant more of it. It also have a much higher series resistance than copper which wont help your speed . Aluminium does not have a long life ,if air gets into the cable it oxidises and in the event of water getting in it breaks down quicker . It was banned in my area. Now nearly 40 years later it has come back to haunt me . Why was it fitted ,easy guess MONEY.

I don’t see how ADSL ISPs can advertise a useful average speed, because it’s so dependent on the distance from the exchange. The only meaningful speed to advertise is the maximum theoretical speed, which will be reduced according to the distance from the BT exchange. Most ISPs provide a more accurate speed prediction based on a prospective customer’s phone number and postcode. Generic headline prices should mention only the maximum theoretical sync speed of the ADSL technology used.

The problem I do have is with ISPs that do not invest in sufficient infrastructure to support the number of customers they have. This results in contention with too many customers using limited network infrastructure at the same time. To avoid this, I suggest avoiding the large well-known ISPs that compete mainly on price to consumers with limited technical knowledge and instead go for a niche ISP that is favoured by very technical consumers.

“The only meaningful speed to advertise is the maximum theoretical speed, …”

I totally disagree. This is worthless information to customers and the reason there have been so many complaints. It’s the reason why we are having this Conversation.

After years of lies, we need ISPs to deliver what they promise, or more. There is nothing wrong with giving customers at least what they expect. It might command a bit of respect.

Only the maximum theoretical speed of the technology allows consumers to make an informed choice between each technology. For example, ISP1 uses standard ADSL which supports a maximum of 8Mbps and ISP2 uses ADSL2 which supports a maximum of 24Mbps. In a particular consumer’s case, both speeds might be reduced by 30% because of the consumer’s distance from the BT exchange, but this 30% would be the same across all ADSL ISPs. This approach applies only to comparing between different ADSL ISPs, which is unfortunately still the most prevalent broadband technology used in the UK.

When comparing between different technologies, e.g. ADSL, FTTC, FTTP, WIMAX, satellite etc, then yes, the average speed does make a difference.

It’s important that consumers understand that broadband speed is affected by:
1. Technology used
2. Distance from the exchange (in the case of ADSL)
3. Contention ratio used by the ISP

Given that 2 is outside ISPs’ control but affects the speed so greatly, it’s not meaningful to use it to compare different ADSL ISPs.

Publishing an average speed oversimplifies something that can’t be simplified.

The ISP needs to take into account the distance and other factors in telling us what speed we can expect.

As I have said, it does not matter if they underestimate the speed but it is dishonest to significantly overestimate it.

My ISP tells me that the average speed for my postcode area is 10Mbps and that the speed may vary between 8 and 12Mbps. My speed is at the lower end of this range, but elsewhere in the street, speeds are higher. It is honest and very much better than quoting ‘up to 24 Mbps’, which is what the ISP used to do.

It’s time to stop short-changing customers.

My ISP told me it would need a phone number to most accurately predict my likely broadband speed. Not a post code – does not give as accurate a result.

I understand what “up to” means, but I also want an estimate that predicts my particular property. Asking the right question seems to elicit the right information – nothing to do with honesty. But we probably need to be prompted to ask the right question in the first place.

I accept that a phone number is better, particularly in rural areas where a postcode can cover a large area. I don’t care how an ISP estimates what speed they can provide as long as they can provide useful information.

I understand about distance, contention ratios, signal to noise ratio and some of the other factors involved, but what matters to each and every customer is what speed they can expect to achieve. We should not have to ask technical questions.

Lets have an honest estimate of what speed can be provided and in the interests of customer satisfaction it is better to underestimate that speed. It’s all about honesty.

“We should not have to ask technical questions.”. If a prospective ISP states that to give you your best estimate of broadband speed they require your phone number, that is hardly a technical question. If you then get nothing like the estimate, then you can criticise them. We need to play our part in this.

I was one of those who used to accuse my ISP form making a misleading claim about broadband speed of ‘up to 24Mbps’. I now congratulate them for no longer making this claim for their ADSL2 service and delivering a speed that is consistently within the expected range. All ISPs should be honest and if necessary underestimate the speeds we can expect to achieve. If it was a national service, I would be promoting it for honesty, albeit after a poor start.

I would like to have a cooling off period of 14 or 28 days if their ISP fails to deliver. The complication is that internal wiring and other local factors can seriously affect speed in some cases.

BT can charge more for providing a faster service for those who need it. It seems fair to me, and a way of funding the roll out of fibre broadband.

I don’t understand why you should be asked to pay an activation fee if your new home was connected to fibre broadband from the start.

Perhaps it would be useful for Which? to ask BT. It may be both making a connection at their end and the cost of setting up a new account. I don’t know – let’s ask?

Thanks Wavechange and Malcolm. I expect there is more to do than flick a switch to activate the BT Infinity service as something has to be installed [or included in the circuit] at the exchange end to enable the higher speed data transmission and they might also supply a new, more powerful router. In the overall scheme of things £30 is OK, but of course there is a considerable additional monthly charge [over & above the line rental] for the superior service and a major part of that is probably used to repay the capital investment in the the broadband roll-out which has indeed been colossal. However, there seems to be no ‘happy medium’ at a reasonable price – it’s either standard broadband, typically at up to 8Mbps, or superfast at anything from 38Mbps upwards and the higher speed services have other – possibly unwanted – things in the bundle and longer contracts. As Wavechange wrote recently on mobile phone coverage, it would be very useful if it were possible to take the service for a trial period to see whether or not it was worth the difference and actually delivered. As they always say on TV, “other operators rates and charges may differ”.

Think you’ll find there’s a bit more to do than ‘flick a switch’ electronically. For a broadband service to work, whether FTTC or ADSL, needs the data and voice connections to be linked. The location of that link depends on what one gets (*). For ADSL the links are made at the exchange. For FTTC, the link is done at the street cabinet, and done by an engineer, so the human touch is still required.

Setup used to cost 50 quid (usually absorbed for new customers on 12, 18, 24 month contracts) but OFCOM forced Openreach to charge properly (half for setting up, half if one ‘ceased’ the internet service), because charging all up front meant they were not being transparent about their ACTUAL costs and profiteering because the bulk of users simply switch rather than need to pay for a ‘cease’.

Some ISPs push up the charge from Openreach (eg to 50 pounds) while others simply absorb or pass on the Openreach charge (and customer pays the VAT, of course).

(*) not so many people are currently using FTTP which you mention, and I’ve not investigated the connections involved with respect to speech. There’s an obvious difference in getting the fibre to the property, and some of the costs involved are to do with covering the different equipment (as you said at 09:15) and the research and development costs.

I’m still looking to see what retail prices are available for FTTPoD which starts at £1500 (and could be much more), for setup and minimum of 36 Months contract. Openreach ‘wholesale’ charge to the ISPs at £99/month … that’s for the 330 Mbps service, but ‘retail’ prices with VAT on top are likely to be considerably more, so it will be very fast, but also rather expensive 🙂

Peter – Thanks ever so much for all that detailed background information.

Exactly NFH

For Fibre (FTTC) most ISPs offer 2 packages with the max speed limited to 70Mbps or 38Mbps, although the connection in both case is capable of faster if you are close to the cabinet.

For those on fast connections c) bandwidth congestion is probably the most important factor and is affected by how much you pay !

Good points. If you complain to an ISP you are likely to be told about these issues, and many of are already aware of them. It’s a good idea to restart the router and make a direct connection to a modern computer and making speed measurements over a number of days before registering a complaint. Hopefully most users are aware that popular sites can provide slow access at times.

The ISP is aware of relevant issues such as contention ratio and throttling, but what the customer needs to know is what to expect. As I mentioned earlier, my ISP provides a minimum and maximum speed that I can expect, and it is rare that it is lower.

Good point about the plasterboard. I was helping a charitable group on an army base a while back and there were excellent signals from all the (soldiers’) homes OUTSIDE the building, but the wireless router in the room NEXT DOOR could not be “seen” (not just on a laptop, but the wireless printer, mobile phones, and so on). Had to install a cable so the new ‘wireless’ printer could be reached, because wireless was simply never going to work in that location.

The building was divided into a number of medium size rooms and I can only assume the plasterboard backing (for energy efficiency, it’s possibly a regulation for building works now) was the cause, not anything ‘special’ about the rooms / building.

In connection with broadband speeds and how accurate a prediction the ISP can be, I think the ASA have sometimes shown themselves to be missing the technical issues. I nearly called them fools but it’s a lack of genuine understanding, most likely.

Obviously comparing Broadband offerings is so much more complicated that, say, TVs or dishwashers.
I have always used Thinkbroadband for speed tests but having read this and other conversations about speed I tried the speed test on my ISP, TalkTalk.
Thinkbroadband has consistently reported 6,5 or thereabouts for months as it did this morning. TT’s check showed 7.8 and suggested that this is slow as I should get between 8.2 and 17.
It suggested various actions including powering down the router – still 7.8!
So I rang TT, as they suggested, and after a few further automated checks I was put through to a human who ran a test and told me that I was getting over 9!
Of course I asked how this might be and he directed me to Speedtest.net where to my amazement 9.2 was returned. Leaving aside that TalkTalk obviously use two different measures this means that 3 tests at approximately the same time report 6.5, 7.8 and 9.2.
Does Which? do physical checks or does it rely on surveys? If so does it take account of different testing methods, postcode or distance to exchange and what sort of connection ADSL, ADSL+, medium or fast fibre.
I tend to agree with PeterM that if I am told between 8.2 and 17 then I have little to complain about if I get 9.2.
What I really want to know is if I moved to Utility Warehouse with 4 stars for speed compared to 2 with TT would I see a noticeable difference? If not why has UW got twice as many speed stars as TT?

dieseltaylor, one of my gripes about Which?’s approach to some topics is they try to whip up emotions on something they purport to be unjust, but do not give all the facts. So many are not able to make the rational judgement necessary (perhaps a relevant conversation is the Dr Grimes one – simply because it makes a plea for evidence to support claims allied to critical thinking). This approach also affects the validity of some Which? campaigns.

I’d like to see no more populist bandwagons promoted in the way politicians do, but reasoned argument and complete facts so we can make a thoughtful judgement.

My campaign would be to remove vat from energy; it is an essential purchase like food and rent, which do not attract vat. I expect that would attract huge support. However, I would also have to include the question of where would the lost tax be replaced from. It has to come from us. Where would that realistically be?

to be fair, the figures were only shown today, so awkward for Which? to have them beforehand 🙂