Has Apple been charging its customers for unnecessary repairs?

They’ve done the same for me. And more – they once sent me a brand new iPod in addition to replacing the battery on an older one, because they took a week longer to do the battery than they expected.

I once took an iPad 2 to the same Apple Store to enquire about the cost of replacement of the screen, which was slightly cracked. I was quoted a high price and was told that what they would do is to provide a refurbished model. That’s why I suggested above that the supplementary cost for replacing the battery on a damaged iPhone may be because it will be swapped for another one.

Years later, the iPad still works fine despite the cracked screen, though it does not get much use now I have a smartphone.

£338 would buy quite a decent brand new PC!

Presumably even Apple aren’t greedy enough to expect anyone to actually spend £840 on the repair of a three year old PC.

So that was a generous repair.

Very generous indeed. My laptop was repaired in May 2015 and it’s still in frequent use. I know other people who have not been so lucky with getting free repairs or refurbished machines but I think it helps to buy direct from Apple, which I’ve almost always done.

As we have discussed before it is not difficult to make phones with replaceable batteries. My Samsung has. There might be a compromise on thickness to accommodate the fixings and seal, but I don’t see the race to thinner and thinner of any value. It might also mean they are no longer submersible, but other than being careless and dropping it out of a back pocket down the toilet – a not uncommon occurrence apparently – that shouldn’t matter. Rain-resistant is easier to protect against.

We should be making products that not only last, but are easily repairable. And avoid the ludicrous costs listed above.

As I’ve said before, Samsung now makes phones without user-replaceable batteries. I presume that thin phones appeal to most people but phone thickness does not concern me, within reason.

I would carry a spare battery in case I am going out and have not charged my phone that day. When I do come to replace my phone battery I will have to buy a third party one because Apple don’t sell batteries to the public, except for old laptops that still have user-replaceable batteries. They are not alone, and many companies don’t make spares available to the public.

Wavechange – UK supplier of Samsung batteries http://www.allbatteries.co.uk/mobile-phone-pda-battery/samsung.html

Thanks, but the batteries are not genuine Samsung batteries, Duncan. They might be just as good but it is difficult to be sure. I will bookmark the site because I may need a battery soon.

I don’t know if Samsung will sell genuine batteries (ones where the phone must be dismantled to replace) to the public but Apple certainly don’t.

Genuine Samsung batteries -UK Wavechange https://www.iparts-4u.co.uk/samsung-battery-replacement

OK, I had not checked the availability of genuine Samsung batteries. I understand that genuine Apple batteries are not available to the public and this company does not offer them. I expect that I will go for a third party replacement. There’s some useful videos that show how to do the job.

That’s interesting. The company has provides a UK landline number but not an address and their website is not good, showing some text on text in my browser. It would also be helpful if they explain how they source their parts. Do they conform to Apple’s specification and what is the guarantee?

On balance I think I would be happier to buy parts from the other websites you have mentioned. AllBatteries looks OK and I know people who have used the site.

“Website not good ” Wavechange ? actually they they only have one real tracker -bigcommerce.com and no malware/tracking servers etc which in website terms is nearly “Saintly ” compared to even here. Its probable the quality of the build of the website isn’t good but not even a hint of viruses/malware much better than most. The other mentioned name was “foxxnet ” a US company that is torn apart on the web for its terrible employee conditions in its factories in China, take note this is NOT Foxnet in case somebody thinks I am misspelling it, — an “under the counter ” company in terms of secrecy but it was an eye opener to see the amount of big names getting their parts made in China in this field . I was amazed at the –well I better watch my words here — “unusual practices” of some big name importers from China. Appleipodparts.com is a wholesale company supplying the trade in the UK so its not a “public company ” in the sense of being advertised in the media as a direct “to the public ” seller . If you try to buy direct from a quality Chinese supplier supplying Apple you need to buy in bulk or you will be directed to an agent or “middleman ” –take note this does NOT apply to Chinese companies supplying cheap rubbish on Alibaba where you can buy batteries individually .

I know nothing about the background, Duncan, but how do I know that the parts are not out of specification parts that have been rejected during testing. When I was young I was happy to buy batches of cheap untested transistors and test their gain and breakdown voltage from mail order companies. As I said, there is no address and no guarantee.

Got more info Wavechange , a bit of detective work shows me they started up around 2009 and the reason they dont print an address is that its a two people import company in the UK but using a German server but doing remote ONLY business from their home (no callers) as the neighbours would “kick up “. They do import original parts (Apple ) from the Chinese factory that makes Apple parts including batteries and are mentioned in on many webpages as selling genuine parts . The owner asked if he could make his accountant his registered address and was told that was legally okay as many businesses do the same as the covenants to his house deeds do not allow running a business/factory /etc from his home and by not giving out a home address as the registered address it stops any person from obtaining information and taking action against him for running it at home. All obtained from -ukbusinessesforums.co.uk website -dated -2009 where he was asking legal questions, so he lives in Britain

Thanks Duncan. This is interesting. I see they are offering genuine Apple batteries, as marked “authorised service provider only”.

I guess, unlike in the USA, British customs do not confiscate and destroy 3rd party imports of Apple spares.

OK, you have done the investigation, Duncan, but I would still prefer to deal with companies that operate a more conventional business and guarantee the parts they sell.

I certainly don’t intend to pay an Apple Centre or authorised dealer to do a job that I can do myself. Will I really need a pentalobe screwdriver?

I understand Apple don’t release service data either. It’s little different from Miele. At one time it was necessary to have cars serviced by manufacturers and their agents but thanks to the EU, this can be done by any competent garage using genuine parts. I have been very impressed by almost all the Apple products I’ve owned but I’m no enthusiast of Apple’s business methods.

I have bought direct from Miele two spares for appliances and been provided with the instructions and diagrams on fitting them, as well as helpful advice on the phone.

That’s not strictly true.
Apple will sell & provide service manuals to authorised service providers, which we were some years ago. True you have to have suitable premises, trained staff, keep an inventory of parts etc. That way you know that your cherished Apple is going to fixed by professionals.

I think we should all have the option of repairing goods we have purchased. However the onus would be on us to ensure it was correctly and safely done.

John – would I be right in thinking that Apple won’t release service data to 3rd party repairers or to the public?

I’m certainly aware of that, Mike. Many of our staff at work had Apple computers and on the odd occasion when repairs were necessary I pointed them in the direction of an authorised service provider nearby. The owner sometimes turned up in the local pub and was very helpful. I think I could manage to change the battery in an iPhone, although that’s yet to be proved.

Malcolm – I quote from UK Whitegoods:

“Miele Spare Parts
Spares for Miele products are just astronomical in price!

Typical examples are over £100 for a drain pump or a whopping £450 for a motor, control PCBs and the likes topping over £300. They may be good, but they sure ain’t cheap to replace.

Of course this would be okay if they never broke down, but while they don’t fail anywhere near mass market levels, they do fail. What you have to bear in mind and, what you take the risk on, is that nothing major breaks before the machine is 12 years or so old as, if you are faced with a repair bill of several hundred pounds when the machine is 8 years or so old, the temptation is to scrap it and replace it with something else.

There are several “compatible” spares available for Miele in our online spares store but the range is limited to very popular Miele spares. Many spares are made exclusively for Miele or in some cases by Miele themselves so there is no alternatives available and Miele will be the only source for these spares.”

If you have evidence that in 2018 that Miele would supply me with a motor for a washing machine or service information I would be interested to see it. What has happened in the past is not very relevant.

I agree. I think Apple is lying about its true reason for not selling parts or data to anyone.

“What has happened in the past is not very relevant.“. Your Macbook repair was in the past – was that not very relevant? https://conversation.which.co.uk/technology/apple-ripping-off-replacement-batteries/#comment-1530769

I simply related my personal experience with Miele. As I have no relationship with them I assume others might be treated in a similar way. But you are quite right, my experience was not that recent.

UK Whitegoods list quite a lot of spares for Miele appliances.

However, in a Convo about Apple batteries I’m not sure why Miele was brought in. Back to topic?

I think it’s fairly relevant because it could happen again. I know of other people who have had good experiences more recently, though I don’t have the details.

Unless you have evidence to the contrary then I will continue to assume that Miele would not sell me a washing machine motor or supply service information or likely to offer me a free repair of goods outside the guarantee period.

There are various companies that will sell third party spares for both Apple and Miele products.

When posting comments about Apple and other companies I like to post both positive and negative comments. There are many who would never say anything negative about Apple. It seems much the same with Miele. In the case of Apple there does seem to be a dichotomy about how customers are treated.

Not only is buying Apple products from John Lewis often cheaper, Andrew, but it also gives you a guarantee period of two years, whereas Apple only gives a year’s guarantee. It’s a difficult decision for me because buying from direct from Apple may give you better service if something goes wrong. Certainly that’s what I’ve heard from friends who have a lot of Apple kit. I’ve given an example above and I’m fairly confident that JL would not have repaired my three and a half year old laptop for no charge.

If I was replacing my phone (I’m still happy with my 5S) I would probably give it to someone who might find it useful. Many people who try to sell or trade-in mobiles have been disappointed at what they have been offered. There’s some anecdotes on another Conversation.

Well you are right Andrew in 2015 they lost $62 Billion and $35 billion later and have plenty of problems in the sales area but looking at the latest issue on USA investigative news websites the biggest problem is —-DONALD — guess where a large portion of their sales are ? –China and guess who is hitting China with massive sanctions ? –Donald -Quote- Chinese tariffs could raise the costs of phones /computers etc and most of Apples equipment is made in China this could cause disruptions to supplies and boycotts , $100 BILLION is involved in the Trade War and Walmart will be affected too. Apple has 20 % of its business in China think of a company (Apple ) worth over $200 Billion more like $300 Billion thats a big loss -Walmart -10 % . Quote – think of a 20 % increase on a Chinese made iPhone going from $1000 to $1200 -dated -27th April -2018.

We have the Consumer Rights Act to protect us for up to 6 years against defective products, products that do not prove acceptably durable, products that are unsafe and so on. I’d like to see Which? involved in maker much greater use of the legal rights it gives consumers. Maybe both consumers and retailers would then realise opting out of redress when a product proves not what should be expected was not an option. Retailers might be more selective about the products they sold, and the terms they extracted from their suppliers – maybe in supporting guarantees.

Surely, when you have a CEO who’s paid a mere £800,000 each year, it will be hard to understand why some ordinary consumers might be unwilling to shell out the best part of £1000 for every PC, phone and TV they need to buy.

The number of Android phones with user-replaceable batteries is dwindling, Brent: https://www.androidauthority.com/best-android-phones-removable-battery-697520/

Perhaps replaceable batteries are something Which?, and other consumer groups, should be campaigning for as part of a more sustainable product and to intervene in the apparent profiteering of Apple?

I’ve mentioned this numerous times, Malcolm. A huge number of household products are scrapped because batteries are non-user replaceable. Try replacing the battery in an Oral B toothbrush, for example. Over the years I’ve managed to replace a fair number of batteries that were never designed to be replaced but it’s a challenge and all due to irresponsible companies that don’t care about sustainability.

The problem being malcolm is that on every tech. engineering website in relation to production costs Apple iPhones are twice as expensive to repair as Samsung and that according to production engineers there isn’t a great difference in the source of parts many come from the same factories its just that Apple like to make some design changes that are exclusive to them but the opinion is that they were done to make it harder for third parties to repair or obtain iPhone spares . it reminds me of the “big brother ” version of Epson,s ink policy. As you mentioned importing Apple parts by third parties in the USA is “illegal ” , have you checked out the influence Apple have on the US government and Congress ? its massive and includes the media . I could go further but I would need to take legal advice beforehand so I will stop there. Open secrets.org -USA -via -The Centre for Responsive Politics -Washington DC -20005-quote -WE follow the Money .

So we think consumers’ associations should try to get to grips with this perhaps? Is that not their job?

And users who have not yet learned of the consequences, or do not care. It will have to change, simply because it is unsustainable. But that change may need helping along.

I agree. The only solution likely to be effective is legislation, in my view. If there was a requirement to make all rechargeable batteries user-replaceable, the next move could be to standardise on sizes so that different makes of phone use the same batteries. The fact that so many products now use AA batteries (both rechargeable and non-rechargeable) is encouraging. Maybe one day we could pop into a shop and ask for a smartphone battery without needing to specify which brand of phone we have.

Brent, I think Android has already become for phones what Windows is for PC’s.

Apple fans don’t seem to be focused on lowest cost solutions.

For their part, Apple have established a brand with a reputation for performance and innovation but not longevity.

Today I plugged in my iMac G4 to retrieve some old photos. It’s nearly 16 years old and is still working fine. I’m writing this post on a seven and a half year old MacBook Pro that still has its original battery. Nevertheless I agree with Derek that Apple does not have a reputation for longevity, but maybe that’s because many users are conditioned into buying new ones.

… And because Apple don’t provide software updates for older machines.

I have a old MacBook that now dual boots OSX and Linux…

I guess the 24 inch aluminium iMac in the study is around 10 years old. I use it for graphics work, DTP and large spreadsheets. It’s running an older version of OSX because some of the software I use, such as Adobe CS4, will not run under the current operating system. The software may be ten or fifteen years old but still does all I need. I have an older 20 inch iMac that is used to display photos at society events. Neither are used online so security is not a problem.

wavechange – intel based PCs of that age will happily run Windows 10, so can still be “safely” used online.

Thanks Derek. I did not know that, but it’s a bit like offering a vegan a beef sandwich. 🙂 I might not be the average Apple zealot but what I have in common with many of them is a dislike of Microsoft. If I was a computer enthusiast I would be using Linux by now. Oh, and all my old software is for Apple OSX, not Windows.

Last week I did six large signs on the old desktop machine using InDesign, put them on a flash drive and sent the files to the printer from another computer, for printing on vinyl. A minor inconvenience and safer than putting a computer with an obsolete OS online.

wavechange – I still use XP on old machines for similar duties. (I also have a VHS tape player somewhere…)

But, thanks to Linux, if I need to, I can also use those old machines on-line.
I get that experienced OSX or Windows users may not want to learn how to use a new OS, but the opportunity is there for those of us who want it.

I do use my old Mac online for Facetime, but I’d prefer to use a cross platform package.

At one time I did explore what computers could be persuaded to do but with laptops that can be used online it’s not important to me to have the desktop machine online too.

Back on topic, I wonder if Apple is insisting on charging damage for repairs to phones to quality for a cheap battery replacement in other countries.

That does not affect the large number of users who buy their phones as part of a two year contract. Add in marketing and peer pressure and we buy a lot of new phones. When buying a phone it would be good to know how long it will be supported with OS updates to help buyers make an informed choice.

I suspect it’s a misnomer to talk about the hand-held mini-computer as a ‘phone’. That is, after all, only a tiny fraction of what it is and can do. I only use iPhones and we have one each, but their primary function is not making or receiving ‘phone calls. We have no mobile signal at all where we live, which I’ve always thought odd, since the mountains are surely prime candidates for mobile coverage, but we use them for numerous other things, mainly to do with day-to-day computing.

Because of the highly competitive market, we got an iPhone 6 two years ago on a two year deal, then, when that ran out, we were able to get an iPhone 7 but for less, so the total cost of keeping the two iphones, with call packages (should we ever need them) is less than having the one iphone we initially got.

Ian, I think that sort of functionality is now implicit in what smart phones can do.

More signicantly, the units are portable and work most places that folk can take them.

[Sent from my £20 Android phone.]

I agree with Derek and Wavechange , but, as I keep saying consistently, The UK is now part of the US socio-political public “group ” thinking and behaves in line with the US . For those that maybe dont think that I post an URL exactly on this subject and smartphones, yes its a few years old but every word has been accomplished in the psychic of not just the American nation but the subverted “group thinking ” of Britain . It shows the power of advertising and propaganda which are directly related to each other as Derek will know if he has “friends ” in the security services . Mind control and “1984 ” have been achieved — read the passage about how short Americans attention span is and then think -UK. http://www.nbcnews.com/id/29258026/ns/technology_and_science-digital_home/t/planned-obsolescence-cell-phone-models/ note in the USA mobile phones are referred to as Cell-Net phones which in my view is the correct technical term.

As Ian says, a smartphone is a computer. As with a Swiss army penknife it might not be the best tool for the job but unlike the knife it does many jobs very well indeed. I don’t consider myself as a heavy user but in the past four years mine has proved its worth to me. I recently downgraded my SIM-only plan that included unlimited calls to 500 minutes per month and now have to be careful towards the end of the month. I tend to use the mobile for outgoing calls because it is so easy to update the phone book compared with using my landline phones.

My top priority is tethering, so that I can use my laptop away from home without messing about with finding free WiFi. I may post here most days, but often far from home.

I reckon that I can replace the battery myself when that is needed. When I can no longer update it I will have to find out whether my obsolete phone still meets my requirements and about security.

I agree with Duncan about marketing pressure being driven by the US, certainly in the case of phones.

What happens to all these phones at the end of the two year contract if you “upgrade”? I’m on a SIM only so I’ll keep my “old” Samsung 4 until I have to change.

Some people move to a SIM-only contract when their original contract expires. The danger is that if you don’t switch to a new contract (monthly rolling or annual) you can carry on paying the same monthly charge even after you have paid for the phone. This practice may now have been banned and a former colleague succeeded in obtaining a refund from O2.

Taking your comment literally malcolm , two things can happen -A- they are Recycled to third world countries ( at a profit ) -B- they are given humanitarianly given away . There used to be a third option China would take in electronic waste but a fall-out (permanent ) with the USA /EU etc put paid to that. Hold on ! there is a fourth option -sell it on websites like uSell.com (USA ) . By the way my spell checker doesnt understand nor accept -humanitarianly – yet its an English word , sign of the times .

It’s not in the OED as an adverb, Duncan; but perhaps they;ll include it if enough start using it. That’s how it works, anyway.

Humanitarianouslification might be in the Bush version.

I had no problem accessing it as the right spelling , its more like – American “English ” or nothing ! HUMANITARIANISM – the Free Dictionary+ Wikipedia+ Dictionary.com+Merriam-Webster +The Free Thesaurus+ Legal Dictionary +Oxford Dictionaries.com + ad infinitum . Its not ME thats wrong –Ian+malcolm. I dont think Donald knows what the word means.

Humanitarianism is fine, Duncan; “humanitarianly” is not, which is what you were arguing existed as an English word. But, as I say, get enough folk to use it and it will appear.

Humanitarianly- http://www.powertherausus.org/smartdefine.org -how to pronounce correctly – humanitarianly -You Tube -howmanysyllables.com-off-guardian.org, the military proceeded HUMANITARIANLY -researchgate.net, the concept of humanitarianly oriented mathematics .NYT – and a complete host of URL,s to chose from all using HUMANITARIANLY . How many quotes do you need Ian ?

I have seen kids with smartphones newer than mine, handed down by their parents. I have not seen old people with phones that have been handed down (handed up?) by their grown up kids but it certainly happens with computers.

Mine was handed on by one of my offspring .I’d prefer to think of myself as maturing rather than old.

Think back to the first very expensive mobile phones that only made calls, then as they got a smaller and smaller and then included cameras so our sales engineers could send photos of problems on site for immediate discussion. How delighted we were with these features from something you could now keep in your pocket. We only want to advance, of course, so we must have the new features that manufacturers devise – even though we got on perfectly well without them. That happens with most products – suddenly what we were delighted with no longer has the same appeal when someone has something better.

I consciously resist this, hence my 24 year old car, 12 year old Nokia, plasma TV, lights with switches on the wall (they are electric)…….. But I am happy to have the smartphone, nearly new car for reliability, and do appreciate them.

We respond to new products I believe because we do want to be up to speed. And all marketing does generally is to address these instincts. We can dig our heels in of course.

How many cars do you have, Malcolm? I know you have a very up to date one, at least…

I have an up to date one, a 14 year old Espace and a 24 year old Espace. Worth virtually nothing to sell but to go places I wouldn’t take my up-to-date one, or to remove the seats to carry large items or rubbish for the family they have proved invaluable. Each year I think the MoT will prompt a decision, but they’ve both just passed. One needed a new rear spring, the other the headlights adjusting (common due to potholes apparently).

It just proves what I have been saying for a long time , all the big US conglomerates will rule us as they can laugh at our puny laws -stage two is the latest TTIP -aka US/UK “Secret Trade talks ” where our Liberty -Freedom – and Democracy is subverted by the USA and we are ruled by them as a third world – Costa Rica . If you are all University graduates here then you must know the history of the Roman Empire and how Rome ruled countries it controlled – IE- as Satrap,s . KIng,s going to bow down to the Emperor – 2018 – Donald – Emperor of the Whole western world.

I confess to not being a fan of Donald and very derisive of the rhetoric used against North Korea. But look what has happened……….Unless China stepped in? However, history relates the decline and fall…….

Consumer Associations need to gear themselves up to fulfilling their mission “making the consumer as powerful as the organisations they deal with”. Just empty words so far. That should perhaps be the first objective of the new CEO.

Meanwhile, if we felt strongly enough about the Apple attitude we could stop buying their products. But most won’t.

We could do with finding out about trustworthy companies that will repair Apple products at sensible prices. After finding that Apple’s idea of repairing a slightly cracked screen was to swap my iPad for a refurbished one at an expensive price I looked around but eventually just kept on using it because it still worked fine. There are companies selling Apple compatible accessories at more affordable prices but I have not got a clue about repairs.

I took your comment and used it as an URL Wavechange looking for the top 5 or so third party Apple repair centres . Number one in the UK came out as Fone Angels https://www.foneangles.co.uk/repair/foneangels-customer-review/ up to date reviews . I will check into their background. Hang on Wavechange some bad reviews are coming up.

Here is one, Duncan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ5mIZ3iQHA

I would if I could Wavechange youtube is blocked in my main programming but take your word for it . I will keep trying.

It’s part of a programme ‘Rip Off Britain’ featuring complaints about the company Foneangels.