/ Technology

Why pay for anti-virus security software?

Computer keyboard with word Virus

We get loads of emails sent to the Which? Computing Helpdesk about the price of anti-virus software. This raises the question; is it worth paying for security software in the first place?

I’ve owned a computer for two decades (not the same one I hasten to add) and I’ve never paid for anti-virus software.

Why? If you add the average price of a yearly anti-virus licence (around £25) then I would have spent a whopping £500 over that amount of time!

They say there’s no such thing as a free lunch, well, in the world of computing there is.

Good old free anti-virus software

AVG Free anti-virus used to be an old favourite of mine, but since Microsoft brought out its free Security Essentials (MSE) software I’ve been quite happily using that alongside my Windows firewall. And I can report no problems to date.

Have you seen the prices Norton and McAfee charge for their security products? It’s touching on £40 for your first year’s subscription, and then another £20 a year to keep your licence up-to-date.

Is it really necessary to spend that much? In reply to a Conversation about anti-virus renewal costs, Mark explained why he pays:

‘I’d rather pay for my Norton’s 360 as I have tested free vs. paid-for and have watched Norton fight off a virus and remove it in real time. Unfortunately the free software never noticed any problems.’

However, in our own tests we’ve found that free anti-virus options like AVG and MSE are perfectly adequate at keeping your computer virus free and protected, even if they may not be quite as good as paid-for software.

The case for paid-for security software

Some might argue that an all-in-one security package will guarantee that everything works together well. However, since Microsoft is the one who put together my PC’s operating system, an argument could be made to say that Microsoft’s own security solution is the best option. MSE is the anti-virus of choice for commenter Bob Smith:

‘Microsoft Security Essentials wins for me because Which? like it and it never nags me to upgrade to a paid version; it just gets on with the job without making a show of itself with pop-ups telling me about what it is doing.’

Are there any other arguments for spending lots of money on security software? Some might say they get technical support included. This is often true, but we’ve had lots of emails complaining that they’ve had to pay extra for the anti-virus company to remote into your computer and sort out your virus infested computer. Who would have thought that you’d be charged again for something you already paid for?

So please stop and think a moment before you hand over your cash for anti-virus software – a free lunch is just around the corner.

Comments
Guest
Mark says:
13 July 2011

My personal theory is that the only group of people who really need decent AV software are the ones viewing dodgy sites and downloading illegal torrents. Arguably the under-educated average user could also benefit from the added security if they are unable to recognise threats to their computer.

Profile photo of John Bogue
Guest

Yes Mark I think you have hit the nail on the head there! A recent online survey indicated that only 3% of current security threats are from the old traditional ‘virus’. The most common security issues we hear of on the Helpdesk are phishing scams and cold calling scams which we highlighted in a recent issue of the magazine.

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Guest

“Have you seen the prices Norton and McAfee charge for their security products? It’s touching on £40 for your first year’s subscription, and then another £20 a year to keep your licence up-to-date.”

If you shop around you can get it far far cheaper – Which? really should be quoting best prices.
I recently paid just over £20 for 3 licences for Norton IS 2011 .

However I agree MS Security Essential is good even if it does clobber the PC while updating.

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Guest

Probably only needed for those who want to run Windows, use the Internet and exchange files. Of course there are alternatives if you just want to access the Internet and exchange files. 🙂

Guest
Sophie Gilbert says:
14 July 2011

I’ve used AVG’s free antivirus programme for a few years now and so far so good. Thanks, Which?, for letting me know about this programme.

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Guest

Glad to hear you are getting along fine Sophie with your free AVG anti-virus.

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Guest

Not everyone has the expertise or time to sort out problems if they do have a problem of malware. It can be expensive to have computers fixed and not all companies are reliable. Paying for anti-virus software is like taking our better insurance, and buying peace of mind.

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Guest

I use Avast! (free) and it does a perfectly good job. My back up is MSE and also Malware Bytes. Avast!’s real-time scanning has been very useful so far, so much so that I don’t feel the need to do a full scan as often as I used to.

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Guest

I used windows Essentials for a year,but got a virus from a program claiming to be Windows Essentials,which fooled me and i am quite experianced.Every time i done an Essentials scan,it deleted it,only to come back straight away and slow my computer down.Downloaded Norton Anti-virus Which? reccomended best buy and it was found and quarantined and delt with it.So for peace of mind I will use Norton,and all 3 computers in my house are covered for the price.

Guest
John says:
15 July 2011

For genuine unbiased reviews of security programs I find av-comparatives to be the most useful
http://www.av-comparatives.org
Having tried AVG, Norton, Kaspersky am now on AVAST free version which is good. However on a belt-and-braces approach try Adaware and Malwarebytes free versions.

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Guest

We agree Adaware and Malwarebytes are great free products. Avast has also achieved our ‘Best Buy’ rating before. As you will know you can trust the veracity of all our testing – read our unbiased reviews here:
http://www.which.co.uk/technology/software/reviews/security-software/

Guest
Derek says:
16 July 2011

I’ve used Kaspersky for a couple of years. What I really like is that when I do have a problem I can actually get in touch with technical help and get assistance quickly. They have been great, can you get this service with a freebee??
My son & daughter run ESET on their laptops because it doesn’t demand so much system resources, important on a laptop.

Guest
John Sampson says:
6 December 2015

Not on Sundays.

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Guest

Very good point John —but it gets worse -office hours =mon-fri-0900-5.30pm -help desk and non free calls BUT — it gets even worse –US help desk for US citizens 5am – 11pm -MONDAY -thru- SUNDAY -(US speak for 7 days a week ) –buts it gets worse –US citizens TOLL FREE . So much for “our American cousins ” and only across the “pond ” as the government pushes they refuse to accept the American government look on England (England =UK in US eyes ) look on the UK as a foreign country . The UK branch must have Melina Mercouri on the board of directors (song -never on a Sunday ).

Guest
Mike says:
16 July 2011

I have used Norton 360 on 3 computers my own, my wife’s and my daughter’s. On 3 occassions it has dug us out of difficult situations we couldn’t resolve ourselves. The online support is better than the support that I have ever received from other software providers. Yes it is expensive compared to some other programs, but for the peace of mind I think it is worth it.

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Guest

Get a Mac and Get a life 😉

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Guest

Macs have virus’s too – you’d be foolish to assume otherwise, very foolish.

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Guest

Too right! in reply to the other responder, what Viruses are these? The last Mac Virus I had was the WDEF one in 1989 -90, since then aprt from the usual spyware and a piece of malware a couple of months ago that kept taking you to a site where you were asked to pay to get rid of it, which was easily removed by the very cheap utility Cocktail, I am unaware of any others.

Guest
Kev says:
20 July 2011

Interesting comments but rather misinformed. Can you elaborate on exactly what virus’s the Apple Mac has succumbed to? Quite difficult to understand how the Mac permissions structure can let a virus do any damage. It can certainly pass on a virus in a forwarded email to another win doze user – that’s the worst it can do.

Guest
Warren says:
18 July 2011

Over the years I have tried several different anti virus programs and found that Norton put so much information into various different files on my laptop that it slowed it down. AVG was ok until a problem with the laptop forced me to take it to a shop and found that I had loads of malware which had got through. For the past couple of years I have been using Panda Internet Security which for £20 protects 3 machines and so far so good, the perfomance has been good, it hasn’t slowed the operation of my laptop and so far nothing has got through, My thought is that I use the internet a lot and do a lot of banking and paying of bills online, therefore want to ensure I protect my information as much as possible from hackers.

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Guest

As a computer user with little technical knowledge I to like to feel safe with something like Norton 360. The one thing that does annoy me is that the annual cost to renew from Norton is usually greater than the cost of buying the latest version from a discount shop. I challenged Norton about this but they did not seem to care! I therefore tend to buy the latest version and install it anew each year. I don’t know if this is good practice or not, perhaps an ‘expert’ could advise me?

Guest
Mark says:
18 July 2011

Hey, Geoff. I used to do the same with Kapersky. Your getting the same package for less, so you are doing the smart thing.

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Guest

I agree with Mark. If you consider yourself a ‘non-techie’ computer user and want the peace of mind of a product with technical support then you are taking the most cost effective route; but as you mentioned the quality of tech support does vary.

Guest
david stobo says:
19 July 2011

ive been buying computeractive magazine since it started and its gave me a lot of tips how to look after your computer and ive never bought any anti viris software in me life and all my computers are running nice and smooth

Guest

I didn’t renew my Zone Alarm Security Suite when it was due in April, it was giving me problems which couldn’t be resolved. Since then I’ve relied on Windows Defender. After reading your article I’ve just installed MSE. When I restarted Zone Alarm (I still use the firewall) it came up with a message saying there was a conflict and ZA antivirus had been turned off. I’ll leave it off as it’s no longer being updated and MSE is, but what shall I do about Windows Defender, disable it or remove it?

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Guest

Your Windows operating system has a built in firewall so make sure that is on. You are best uninstalling the ZoneAlarm Suite altogether as it will cause more problems down the line with possible conflicts, especially between two conflicting anti-virus programs. With regard to Windows Defender this is Microsoft’s older anti-spyware program before MSE was released, it will be disabled because MSE will take over the anti-spyware tasks as well as the anti-virus guard duties.

Guest

Thanks for that, but as I said there’s no conflict with the antivirus programs because the Zone Alarm AV is switched off. But I will remove ZA.

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Guest

Excellent news denisiw! Glad to hear it’s all worked out ok.

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Guest

I used various anti virus programs until I heard a computer expert on the BBC program “Working Lunch” who said he thought that most anti virus programs were “More of a problem than a solution” and he recommended Microsoft Security Essentials. I decided to try it and now have it on my 3 computers. I find it’s at least as good as many of the more paid for anti virus programs and therefore recommend it.

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Guest

I used the free AVG for some years without a hitch until I took part in the beta trials of MSE. I’m not a security expert, so I cannot expound more than to say that MSE installs easily, integrates Windows Defender firewall and updates seamlessly (sometimes three times a day). I’ve never had a virus or malware infection which speaks volumes for me.

In large corporate or student network environments a different solution is necessary to ensure that all computers are kept up to date and that users don’t disable the protection.

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Guest

I concur. MSE just gets on with the job in the background and lets you get on with the things you want to do on your computer with only some limited intervention required for the usual virus updating task. What you have been saying pretty much reflects our feedback to the Which? Computing Helpdesk.

Guest
Bernard Bedford says:
19 July 2011

How much you may or may not wish to pay for security software depends on your attitude to risk, your previous experience with viruses, your awareness of current malware techniques and how much you value your data. I totally disagree with Mark’s idea that the only people who need to be worried are under-educated less than average users and those who visit dodgy websites. I was part of the original homebanking experiment in 1983, get my share of spam and pfishing emails, and visit websites I think are legitimate and of value, but I have an inquisitive mind that seeks out data. I am happy to pay for antiviral software and particularly value Kaspersky because it invariably scores well in independent studies, it provides additionally a virtual keyboard as an anti-keylogging device, it provides a special safe browsing environment and a special safe test running environment for downloaded programmes. The price varies depending on time of year, but I invariably find a 3 licence version for less than £20 each year. Like John I find http://www.av-comparatives.org/ especially useful for making comparisons – much more than ?Which – because it gives me both data rather than stars and percentage scores that frankly tell me very little, and especially because it tells me the conditions under which the software was tested. I do a fair bit of online finance and shopping and I have no tolerance of risk in these situations.

Guest
James says:
19 July 2011

Some security software can cause unexpected problems, particularly if you have an old PC like mine (Pentium 4 running at 1.3GHz). I used to use Kaspersky Internet Security (2009 I think), but when I upgraded to a newer version my PC became very slow. Their tech support eventually recommended that I revert to the older version, even though their web site said the new version was compatible with my PC.
I now use Norton Internet Security. This runs fine now, but used to cause my PC to grind to a virtual halt if I left it unattended for a while. I tried turning off all of Norton’s features one by one until I discovered that it was doing a disk defragmentation. I turned this off and everything works fine now. I never suspected that security software would be defragmenting my disk!

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Guest

Norton includes some tools in 360 that used to be sold under the name Norton Utilities (last time was 2004.

It was about 20 times faster than the MS version – so MS improved theirs with Norton code and made the utilities redundant. The Norton one is still faster, even if Norton causes your PC to grind to halt as the overhead is exceptionally high.

You don’t need to constantly run de-drag, about every 3 months would be good to check if a regular file user. Just turn it on and go to bed, it’ll be done by the morning, often quicker!

De-fragging a cluttered (fragmented) Hard disc does speed up things dramatically, anything over 6% when it first reports the status is worth doing, especially on big discs, a bit of math shows how much data is involved. This is not a thing you can do whilst working though, in fact it can make things worse as saving files, browsing writes files to clusters as they are being ‘tidied up’.

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Guest

I am surprised that no one has mentioned NOD32, I have used it for years and the once or twice that viruses have got through their telephone and online support are superb.

As a matter of interest, I put NOD32 onto my partner’s machine about 18 months ago and it found several viruses, all of which I think were DLL files which seem to be a problem as they are loaded at startup and as such are difficult to remove, on contacting Eset (NOD32 company) they took control of the PC but struggled to remove some of the files, I said to the guy would starting up from a DOS disc and simply deleting the files work to which he replied that that was actually the easiest way to do it!! So here’s a possibility, use the free online scan that all the paid for AV programs offer, take a note of the file path, get yourself a DOS startup disc and just delete them????

Guest
Ike Tomkins says:
20 July 2011

I bank on line with Nat West. They are continually pushing me into using RAPPORT. I tried it once and found everthing slowed up, so immediately removed it. I wonder whether, if there ever was a problem with my bank accounts, can the bank cause me any problems through not taking up their recommendations. I currently use AVG free which I have done for many years and, touch wood, havever experienced any problems.
Would appreciate comments on this situation because I don’t think I can be the only one in this situation.

Guest
Mark says:
20 July 2011

It’s funny you mention Rapport as I just heard someone bad-mouthing it recently. The very little I know makes it sound pretty poor.

That’s an interesting question. My understanding is that as long as you take reasonable steps to prevent yourself from being a victim of fraud, you won’t be held liable. For example, Natwest states this in their T&Cs:

“6. Where a transaction on the account is confirmed by use of the Security Details and the Service but you subsequently show that the transaction was not authorised by you, you will not be liable for that transaction provided you have kept your Security Details secret, you have acted with reasonable care and in accordance with these Terms and Conditions, and you have not acted fraudulently.”

Therefore, I don’t think it’s necessary to use Rapport, just as long as you protect yourself in a similar manner with other software.

Hope this helps.

Guest

I downloaded Rapport from my Santader account when they suggested it over a year ago and now Nationwide are offering it too. I’ve had no problem with it at all and I’ve used it on all the sites I visit where password are used.

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Guest

The bank can’t rely solely on their customers own security because some people don’t keep their systems up to date even if they have the correct security programs installed. Also at home people have a big mix of different software on their computers which can compromise computer performance and stability; just like other areas of life where security is an issue, banks take a tiered approach. Rapport should just be seen as another tool in the tool box. The banks main security is a secure site where the transactions take place (e.g. https) and also you should have to enter a password and at lest one other code or ‘answer phrase’ that only you will be aware of.

Guest

Further to my previous post:

I’ve uninstalled ZA but now I can’t turn Windows Firewall on! At the Security Center there is a message saying ‘The Security Center is currently unavailable because the “Security Center” service was not started or was stopped. Please close this window, (or start the “Security Center” service), and then open the Security Center again.’ I’ve done that but it makes no difference.

If I click on the Windows Firewall button a message comes up ‘Windows Firewall settings cannot be displayed because the associated service is not running. Do you want to start the Windows Firewall/Internet Connection Sharing (ICS) service?’ I click Yes and another message comes up saying ‘Windows cannot start the Windows Firewall/Internet Connection Sharing (ICS) service.’

Can you help me with this please? I bet that there’s an easy fix – I hope so anyway! I’d be very grateful for any assistance with this. Cheers. Denis

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Guest

In a previous comment you said you still use the ZA firewall – this is why you can’t turn on the Windows one, you can’t use both as they conflict. You will need to choose which one you want to use and then stick with one only. For simplicity and reliability I suggest you go with the Microsoft security software which integrates well with the operating system and remove everything else – all of ZA Suite not just elements of it. Be mindful of having ‘too much’ security (you are using also using Rapport) it can be counter-productive – your system will just grind to a halt and in the worst case will crash.

Guest

I have uninstalled Zone Alarm.

I said this at the beginning of my last post! I’ve removed all elements of Zone Alarm using Error Expert. But now I’ve got a bigger problem in that I’ve had a Microsoft pop-up telling me that my software has changed substantially from when I initially installed it (10 years ago, so obvious it’s changed) and my copy of Windows has failed validation and I have to go to the Microsoft website to resolve it! I validated it when I first installed it, why the problem now?

Bloody brilliant, I’m well p***ed off!

Guest

I should have mentioned that the message also says I’ve got 3 days to validate Windows! I don’t know what the punishment is going to be if I don’t. I’ve sent this query to the Which? Computing helpdesk I hope they can help me.

I think it’s time for me to get a new desktop!

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Guest

Sorry to hear you are having a Windows ‘validation error’ – please see this Microsoft link:
http://www.microsoft.com/genuine/downloads/FailureScenarios.aspx
You’ve already validated Windows so its probably an error, also known as a ‘false positive.’ After 10 years it is time to purchase a new desktop. Most desktop systems will remain fairly reliable for around 6-7 years at a push and that’s even if you upgrade all the various components.

Guest
Mark says:
21 July 2011

Hey, denisiw.

Have you tried re-entering your validation code that came with your Windows installation? (If you have Windows 7 it should be on the top side of the packaging.) You really need that code, otherwise you won’t be able to use certain features of Windows when your time runs out.

It seems odd to me because you are normally only asked to validate again if a major hardware change has taken place (for example, if you’d replaced the motherboard).

If the worst comes to worst, you can always buy a new code directly from Microsoft; however, I would try contacting their support department directly to see if you can avoid this.

Guest

Problem solved!

I contacted Microsoft yesterday and was connected to Microsoft technical help. I had to install Microsoft Easy Assist and then pass control of my machine to the support engineer so he could sort the problem out. He had to go into the registry to make changes. I was on the phone for over an hour.

It turns out that the product key for my desktop, which was built for me in 2002 by a local computer company here on the Isle of Wight, was an OEM key. That explains why I wasn’t given the Windows XP disc at the time, I assume it’s so that in the event of a problem I have no choice but to take the desktop back to them to sort it out. Anyway a new product key has been installed and everything is ok. I can’t speak too highly of the support engineer who sorted this out for me.

Another benefit of removing ZoneAlarm is that my PC now takes about half the time it used to to load up. I’ve now got time to look around for a new desktop, at present I’ve got an 80GB HDD which is 90% full and an AMD Athlon XP2000 1.66GHz processor. The other drawback is that every time I connect a device to my one USB port I get a message saying that ‘this device can run faster if it is connected to a USB 2.0 port’.

Thanks.

Denis

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Guest

Picking up on some earlier comments, there are viruses that can affect Macs (see, for example, the list here: http://stason.org/TULARC/os-macintosh/computer-viruses/7-1-Mac-specific-system-and-file-infectors-Viruses-and-the.html). However, Sophos AV software for macs is free and appears to be effective.

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Guest

Wow, really interesting viruses affecting system 6 and 7 I think my original Mac SE from 1988 would have been vulnerable to these ones. If I were to list all the viruses affecting PCs since the days of DOS my guess is that this post would be rejected on the basis of length! However there have been a few changes since then, not least of which is 2 generations of CPU type (PowerPC Motorola chip, and finally Intel) and about 8 or 9 iterations of the operating system including a swop to the current UNIX based OS. I think most Mac owners now would be more interested in viruses for current machines and operating systems. Even viruses for PowerPC machines would not be too relevant as the switch to Intel CPUs happened back in 2005, most of the software for the PowerPC architecture still runs under emulation on Intel CPUs but my guess would be that in running like that the ability of any virus from that era (ie pre 2005) to do any harm to the host Mac would be small. The biggest curse for Windows machine owners is probably Mac owners unintentionally forwarding PC viruses to infect other machines.

Guest
Algynon says:
21 September 2011

Just found a problem with MSE; it gave me a little note with a yellow ! hazard icon that says “Preliminary scan results show that malicious or potentially unwanted software might exist on your system. You can review detected items when the scan has completed.” Trouble is, the scan never completes but it gives me no idea what or where the malicious or potentially unwanted software is. Not at all helpful as a so called anti virus fixer…….

So its back to AVG!!

Guest
Larna says:
18 January 2012

I have just had a reminder from McAfee that they will soon autorenew my antivirus protection. The price for this will be £54.99 (1 licence) rather than the £25 per annum mentioned in this article! I have been having serious problems with a very slow running PC, that is sometimes unusable, for quite a long time now. I have just received a popup from McAfee Service Host yet again saying that it has encountered an error after struggling to write this post. Also, I have found that ‘mcshield.exe’ is using most of my CPU. Therefore I am now going to download Security Essentials, for free, and uninstall McAfee.

Guest
Andrew says:
14 May 2012

Like if you had to check to see if the top row of your keyboard actually spelled out the word ‘virus’.

Guest
Forid Uddin says:
17 July 2012

Yes I agree. The prices of antivirus and internet security packages are very steep. I have studied and tested many antivirus packages during my academic studies and have reviewed the ‘top’ brands myself. I must say, some of the packages don’t really offer anything special. However, there are some that are really good.

[Hello Forid, we have edited your comment as we don’t allow self-promotional links. Thanks, mods.]

Guest
bobphl says:
12 October 2012

McAfee have just renewed my Total Protection Cover @ £64.99 and I find in todays paper it is being advertised @ £29 by Currys/PC World

Guest
Richard says:
19 December 2013

Microsofts MSE is finding less favour with some techie websites. Is it still Which’s opinion that its performance is still perfectly acceptable ?

Guest
SMY says:
20 July 2014

I know very little about the workings of computers but have a MacBook Pro which I love. However, as mentioned by someone previously, my bank keeps asking me to download ‘Rapport’. I was informed by a member of staff in my local shop not to download Rapport. Not sure what to do so would appreciate some advice please.

Guest

There are some previous comments regarding Rapport. I downloaded it when prompted by Santander and have had no problem with it whatsoever.

Guest
SMY says:
23 July 2014

Thank you. Do you have a Mac?

Guest

No, I don’t.

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Guest

I have used Rapport on MacBook Pro and was very disappointed to find how much it affected performance.

Guest
SMY says:
24 July 2014

Yes that’s what I had been told by the assistant in the shop and that’s why I have been wary about installing it on my Mac. Thank you

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Guest

With his ‘just posted’ comment, the ever watchful duncan lucas has brought to my attention this rather useful Thread.
However, having Read the Thread ‘Teaser’ from a Geezer called John Bogue, of no stated provenance, I was flabbergasted to read these two First interactions :
See what you think, and whether it consolidates, or not, your confidence in the objectivity of elements involved with Which?
***Note to ”mods”***
If you rule that this is taking this Thread ”Off Topic”, rather than just deleting my hard work, please set up a Thread where this particular matter may be discussed.
Thnx
=====================
Mark says:4 years 4 months ago
My personal theory is that the only group of people who really need decent AV software are the ones viewing dodgy sites and downloading illegal torrents. Arguably the under-educated average user could also benefit from the added security if they are unable to recognise threats to their computer.
——-

Profile photo of John Bogue [Indicators showing him to be part of the ‘mods’ group]
John Bogue says:4 years 4 months ago
Yes Mark I think you have hit the nail on the head there! A recent online survey indicated that only 3% of current security threats are from the old traditional ‘virus’. The most common security issues we hear of on the Helpdesk are phishing scams and cold calling scams which we highlighted in a recent issue of the magazine.
.

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Guest

A bit of a “mutual admiration society” there, I think.

Personally, I would only ever visit dodgy websites or download illegal torrents from the comfort and security of Linux, so, even then, I wouldn’t need paid for AV s/w.

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Guest

Derek you use Linux ? so do I .I still have Win 7 prof in dual boot but Windows is the most open system to abuse in the World spent years fighting both viruses/hackers /Trojans etc . Windows insist on controlling your PC by the “back door ” doing so lets in a multitude of other people including GCHQ/NSA etc who MS have given FULL access to Windows along with NATO -pick your secret service /Special Branch and Uncle Tom Cobley and all . The good thing about LInux is that YOU input your password EACH time you want to make changes . It doesnt matter what protection you put in it never protects 100 % so you need multiple non-live virus program /Internet protection etc etc . Professional business know all about its weaknesses . I could go on in this subject as I have years of practical info but its never ending on Windows and dont talk about win 10 -the SPY network -the Movie total MS control okay if you like that I dont.

Profile photo of DerekP
Guest

Duncan, I still use Windows for some things – but seldom ever for on-line activity. Otherwise, I prefer to use Linux.

Good security is all about multiple lines-of-defence. Very gradually, newer versions of Windows seem to be getting better at providing these, but I think they still have a lot of catching up to do.