New right to repair rules: what do you think?

I share your concern, RJF. How can products be made repairable without putting the amateur repairer at unnecessary risk to themselves and others?

Education and proper instructions from manufacturers could help us all do potentially risky work in a safe way. I would like to see a revival of repair sh

I share your concern, RJF. How can products be made repairable without putting the amateur repairer at unnecessary risk to themselves and others?

Education and proper instructions from manufacturers could help us all do potentially risky work in a safe way. I would like to see a revival of repair shops that sell parts to consumers and will take over if there is a problem. I had a problem with my car recently and decided that I did not have the knowledge or equipment to diagnose, so I took it to my trusted garage. (Unfortunately he was defeated too.)

A significant number of people do manage to fix their own stuff and I have heard of few accidents.

Many of us do jobs as amateurs that we have learned to do safely. We have looked up instructions where we can. So those can take on repair jobs that they know they are capable of tackling. Nevertheless, they do so at their own risk. They should know when professional help is needed. But we cannot, and should not, take away their initiative. We have to learn to stand on our own feet and take responsibility for what we do, or decide not to do.

Jeremy – I agree with you about having a go at repairs. If a product is going to be scrapped there is nothing to lose and as you have said, the effort is often rewarded.

I had not even considered that the new legislation could mean less access to spares but that deserves some thought.

As Malcolm has said we have to take responsibility for our actions. When I was younger I was happy to fix electronic products for friends as a hobby but to protect myself I now I offer practical help only to family and close friends. However, it’s amazing how many problems can be fixed over the phone.

Making appliances last 10 years has a lot to be said for it.

I’ve just overhauled and (slightly) upgraded a 10 year old Dell Inspiron 1545 laptop that I was given.

But I’m also now ready to scrap a few other old laptops, all of which are broken beyond economic repair.

If you have a 10 year old appliance, then it can be hard to justify spending a lot to repair it.

But if spares are needed after only 2 or 3 years, then the case for a repair may be more compelling.

But if the required parts cost ever exceeds about 50% of the cost of a replacement, then I’d be tempted to scrap and replace.

I would like Which? to properly examine products – no doubt they would need to use experienced people – for quality of design, build and components so an assessment can be made as to whether they are likely to last, We need to be weaned off just buying the cheapest, even if it might be rated a best buy, without having some idea of its longevity.

Some people will buy cheap products because they will get very little use – appliances for a holiday home perhaps – and manufacturers will always fill this market. I think manufacturers should be required to offer a range of their own warranties, perhaps 5 and 10 years, on a repair or replace basis, that you can choose when you purchase. Then you can assess value for money (cost per year, for example) on a better basis. I’d expect those who make the more durable appliances will offer better terms than those who do not.

Yes . . . but ten years starting from when manufacture of the product [or its substantially identical equivalent] is discontinued.

I’m thinking about a manufacturer’s guarantee, John, so it would run from the time of sale.

If the manufacturer is responsible for other repairs during the guarantee period they cannot afford to have too many claims which will help ensure that products can be repaired economically and spares remain available.

Guarantees typically exclude consumables, so that a ten year guarantee would be likely to exclude parts such as door seals, filters, motor brushes and other parts that might need replacement as a result of wear & tear.

Sorry – I was still thinking about the guaranteed availability of spare parts.

On manufacturers’ warranties, I am wondering whether ten years is a step too far: we would be going from no obligation to provide a warranty to a ten year compulsory minimum. That would be ideal and deserving of support but it could make white goods too expensive for some people or in certain circumstances. I would prefer a range of options with prices to suit. My mother in law bought a new washing machine and died a year later; she bought a cheap Bush machine from Argos but it was suitable for her needs and life expectancy. We were using it about once a fortnight for at least a year after that as we prepared her house for sale and then sold it to a dealer with various other chattels.

Yes, John, I agree that there is little chance of requiring all manufacturers to offer a ten year guarantee soon but I do believe that it should be an aim. We need manufacturers to maintain stocks of spares so that repairable machines are not scrapped for the want of spare parts. In earlier discussions I have suggested that a five year guarantee could be a starting point.

This Which? article shows that the estimated average lifetime of popular brands of washing machines is really quite good with even Hotpoint/Indesit models managing 13 years: https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/washing-machines/article/which-washing-machine-brand/best-washing-machine-brands-a2Z6T7H782pB I’m not optimistic about brands such as Bush, Logik and unheard-of names that are really built down to a price.

Secondhand products rarely get a mention and perhaps they offer the solution for those who could not afford a new appliance with a decent guarantee.

Even cars have, normally, nothing like 10 year guarantees – although you can often extend the manufacturer’s guarantee annually, for a fee. So a 10 year guarantee on an appliance will simply cost extra (or be built into the price).

Cars are a great deal more complex than white goods, which is probably why most manufacturers do not offer more than three years’ cover as standard.

It would be interesting to see pricing for white goods with a five or ten year guarantee. It might not make much impact on the price of fridges and freezers, which tend to be reliable.

At present there is pressure to take out the type of cover offered by Domestic & General, which covers accidental damage as well as breakdowns. That means that careful owners are subsidising those who are not.

One of the reasons I am keen on decent guarantees is that most people are familiar with making a claim during the guarantee period. You and I exercise our rights under the CRA, Malcolm, but not everyone has the confidence to take on retailers.

In my parents’ generation it was more common for people to tackle repairs, sometimes out of financial necessity. Products have become more complex and servicing information harder or impossible for us to obtain. Many can afford to simply replace products and in the case of electrical goods, many are effectively much cheaper than in the past.

I agree with your point about the capabilities of the public, though there still many enthusiasts who are happy to have a go at repairing and upgrading computers, for example. This morning my neighbour was bemoaning the fact that her edging shears were not working properly and she asked if I knew where they could be sharpened. They were not blunt and the problem was that a nut needed to be tightened.

Judging by the popularity of YouTube d-i-y videos and the number of comments they attract I would say there are still a lot of people prepared to have a go at a wide range of jobs.

I think the focus on health and safety over the last fifty years has paid for itself many times over in the saving of lives and reductions in injuries, fires and harmful accidents. There were lots of safety regulations in place before 1974 for different types of workplaces but implementation was poor and enforcement weak unless there was an incident. With employers having been made to ensure safe places of work, to actively manage health and safety at work, and to report injuries, diseases and dangerous occurrences, all strongly supported by the trade unions, the the culture changed and all adults were touched by it to some degree. People gradually began to bring that culture back home and adopt a ‘safety first’ approach in their domestic maintenance activities and they took considerable pride in keeping things in good condition, making sure they were safe and mending them correctly if they started to go wrong. From initially being a joke, health and safety became a mark of good housekeeping and practical common sense. It is remarkable that lots of people I know mention that they assess risks before they undertake jobs and make sure they take safety precautions. The private sales of protective equipment bear ample testimony to that. That sort of language was unheard of years ago and shows how influential good legislation can be. People moaned about the cost of implementation but soon saw that it saved both money and time and improved productivity. It infiltrated into the schools and produced a new generation who were safety-conscious from an early age and taught their parents what not to do.

I very much agree about safety in the workplace. At work or at home we need to learn to perform potentially dangerous tasks in a safe way. There are some well meaning people who believe that home repairs and maintenance should be left to the professionals but they are usually people who lack any practical experience.

Some YouTube videos do provide warnings of risks and as they become more popular I hope more of the presenters will do this.

Wouldn’t you have thought that, after all these years of product development, kitchen appliances would go bang quietly? I can understand your annoyance.

At least it waited until one minute before the end of the cycle, so I was not left with dirty dishes. Excuse me while I hand-wash the dishes.

You might find one at UK Whitegoods for around £33. You might then keep it going for another 16 years https://shop.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/3382700-compatible-dishwasher-heating-element.
John, the bang was probably the original Bosch audible error message prior to electronics taking over and displaying ”bang” on the display.

Sadly it looks like one of the more expensive types. The previous occupants of my home told me that the machine did not work properly and that they would get rid of it before completion. All that was wrong was limescale in the spray arms, so I have extended the time of the dishwasher by more than five years, at no cost.

Thanks Malcolm. Bisch, Bosch, BANG!!

The tone and volume of the error signal might be adjustable in the settings on more recent models.

”Manufacturers will now have to make spare parts available for washing machines, washer-dryers, dishwashers, refrigerators and TVs for the first time. Repairs also need to be possible using everyday tools. ”

Read more: https://www.which.co.uk/news/2021/06/new-right-to-repair-laws-introduced-what-do-they-actually-mean-for-you/ – Which?

I’d be interested to have a report on just what spare parts are generally available. From a limited look online at various times I’ve found plenty of sources for pumps, motors, belts, glass, heaters and the like for domestic appliances. I’ve repaired a 25 year old lawn tractor with solenoid, switches, belts. Brushes for a hedgetrimmer. My gas boiler had new sensors and circuit board. Some OEM parts, some third party. I suspect where a market exists someone will supply it.

Phil Dixon is spot on, though. OEM spares need to be at sensible prices, not inflated the way many are. That affects both professional repairers I expect as well as the “amateur”. We also need available fault diagnosis and repair instructions if we genuinely want to encourage extending the life of appliances; many will be put off by the labour cost – simply not worthwhile on cheaper products but, if you can identify the problem and carry out the repair yourself, worth doing.

I think the success of this legislation in achieving its goal will largely depend upon us being able to be helped to diagnose faults, source properly-priced spare parts and be guided how to fit them without the need, in many cases, to involve a professional repairer. I wonder who will provide appropriate information? Maybe we need to foster the “repair club” movement?

https://press.which.co.uk/whichstatements/which-comments-as-right-to-repair-rules-come-into-force/

Hi Phil – Thanks for joining us. I agree that parts need to be affordable and if they are not then products will continue to be scrapped. Thankfully many repairs can be done without needing spares.

You mention upgrades and the problem of smart TVs losing functionality comes to mind. Fortunately there are inexpensive ways of overcoming loss of apps but I wonder how many owners just scrap TVs because they no longer work properly. We need to find solutions.

Malcolm – Some of the parts you have mentioned are not specific to a particular product, which can help DIY repairers. I kept a washing machine going for over 20 years using a drain pump for a different make and model. The real problems arise when the only option is to use manufacturer’s parts.

Parts do not have to be specific of course and if a repair movement gains momentum it will make it worthwhile for more of such parts to be produced, like pattern parts for cars. Some parts will be generic but with unique fixings to suit a particular product; adaptors can often get around that.
However my point was to examine just how extensive the existing parts system already is that is available to the public. I think the legislation might create the impression that nothing exists currently, clearly not the case.

I am a bit surprised tvs are included. I thought they were amongst the most reliable products . I wonder what spares are generally needed to repair those when something goes wrong.

However, we need manufacturers to show long term support for their products by providing sensibly priced extended warranties, up to 10 years I’d suggest. That will, hopefully, ensure they both look to the quality of design, build and components to avoid excessive repair costs and ensure a suitable supply of spare parts is provided. It may lead to the use of more generic parts to reduce stocking costs.

I would like to see manufacturers offering decent guarantees, Malcolm. Extended warranties can soon become very expensive, partly because they often cover accidental damage. I don’t want to subsidise those who are careless.

I am not suggesting including accidental damage, simply that manufacturers should offer repair or replace warranties for their own products. The reliable manufacturers’ products will presumably have more competitive prices for their warranties than the poorer quality ones, particularly for 10 year ones.

I want to see manufacturers’ guarantees and not warranties, which generally involve dealing with a separate company. Providing decent guarantees as standard should help improve the reliability and repairability of products because it would be uneconomic for companies to pay for many repairs.

Maybe we might need to start with five year manufacturers’ guarantees and then aim for ten.

I won’t quibble over what we call it. I have said in the past that these warranties/guarantees should be offered by the manufacturer to purchase from them when you buy their product. 5 years would be an option but to address sustainability we need 10 years to make a real impact. I had a 10 year repair or replace warranty purchased with my dishwasher (which is still going strong – a year left).

I see the difference as of vital importance. If the manufacturer has to bear the costs of repairs this will be a direct incentive to make products that are more reliable and repairable. With an extended warranty there is no such link and the cost of a warranty tends to depend on the type of product and the purchase price.

As I said, I am promoting a manufacturer’s offering for that very reason. However I would expect, even if it were offered by an insurer, the most reliable products should have lower prices than the less reliable ones on the basis they will have to pay out for fewer repairs.

Let’s just pursue longer life products and the way consumers can benefit.

Let’s agree to differ, Malcolm.

I rather thought we were in agreement on the principle. 🙂 .

The UK manufactured Ebac AWM86D2H washing machine comes with a “free” 10 year parts and labour warranty. A pity that, according to Which?, it is rubbish at washing and rinsing clothes.
https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/washing-machines/ebac-awm86d2h

Rather sad, especially considering that the other Ebac model tested by Which? has the same problems. Poor rinsing is not uncommon and I often have to put my Miele on for a second short cycle to achieve adequate rinsing. I never had to do that with its ancient predecessor.

Ebac has manufactured respectable dehumidifiers for years, so maybe their washing machines will improve.

Not this one, according to Which? https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/dehumidifiers/dd295whgba0393

Others Ebac models are better, provided that the room is heated. Other manufacturers now offer desiccant humidifiers, which work better than compressor models in unheated rooms, which is where condensation is most likely to occur. I’ve never had the need for a dehumidifier but the different types are explained on the Which? website and elsewhere.

It does include TVs. What is a common failure and is economically repairable in a tv?

Whether a TV is economically repairable depends on the availability and affordability spares and service information, and also having some expertise. TV faults often lie in the power supply and that can be confirmed by simple voltage measurements.

I agree with Tangram’s comments.

I suspect the fact will remain, notwithstanding the right-to-repair regime, that owners will choose to scrap an appliance or small electrical goods when they pack up as they might have had a full life and a new model might be more appealing from points of view other than basic functionality or technical performance.

What this legislation might achieve is the rebirth of local service engineers or community repair workshops and the growth of a sensible after-market in used appliances where working spare parts are recovered from broken products and reinstalled in other similar models as replacements for failed units so long as they are compatible. More work needs to done on that front to make sure that many critical components are interchangeable and can be substituted with technical knowledge and the right tools. Having said that, I think we have to accept that, in many cases, the integration of sealed units might have a valid performance function that overall makes, say, a washing machine more reliable and therefore last longer. This could be particularly significant if the form of construction reduces the potential for excessive vibration thus reducing wear and tear and noise levels.

I suspect that, with things like kettles, toasters and irons, a basic new replacement would be more cost-effective than a repair since so much of the product’s value nowadays is bound up with the design, colour and general aesthetics such is the influence of consumerism over sustainability.

I was pleased that I was able to source a new remote control unit for our old personal video recorder which saved having to discard and replace the whole device losing its stored contents in the process; with all the emphasis now on streaming and downloading on demand it’s good to know that not everything has disappeared into the ether or is only accessible from cyberspace for a further payment.

Wavechange – I doubt whether many householders, or children in their bedrooms, will be carrying out any simple voltage measurements when their TV goes on the blink. The pressure will be on to get a new one in NOW!

Mind you, I applaud those who do have an aptitude for fixing things and have the necessary apparatus to detect the source of faults and get them going again.

The reason that few attempt repairs to their TVs is, I believe, the lack of service information and readily available spares, John. Without service information, fault diagnosis would be as difficult as doing a crossword without numbers shown on the grid! There are plenty of people who are prepared to assemble and upgrade computers because they have sufficient information available and there is plenty of online support available. Complex faults do exist but the majority are often simple.

Even with service information I wouldn’t dream of taking the back off a television set and I reckon I am far from alone in that. In general I would say that TV’s are some of the most reliable of domestic products. Most replacements have probably been brought about by format and technological changes rather than component failure.

My approach is that if a product is going to be scrapped it can be worth trying to fix it. The fact that most people would not attempt a repair is not a good reason to deny others the opportunity.

About ten years ago I took my TV to a repairer, who failed to fix the problem and tried to charge me for a circuit board. I knew that the part had not been replaced because I could see several solder joints that had been re-made. Trading Standards declined to take action unless other problems were reported, but I managed to secure a refund.

A little technical understanding can help avoid large repair bills, for example where a field service engineer replaces serviceable parts until the faulty one is discovered.

I wouldn’t suggest that we deny people the opportunity to repair appliances if they wish to do so but I think we should recognise that few will want to, or have the ability to do so. It is therefore likely that uptake of the facility will not be very high and it could be expensive and require time and persistence to get the parts required.

I hope manufacturers do not take a new responsibility to enable repairs as an opportunity to reduce the reliability and quality of products rather than making them to yet higher specifications and performance standards.

I notice that one of the European Football Championship 2020 sponsors, the Qingdao No. 2 Radio Factory [now known as Hisense], is one of the world’s most advanced TV and other domestic appliance manufacturers both in volume and technology and has a comprehensive spares operation. I trust it will provide total satisfaction as increasing numbers of consumers are attracted to the company.

I take a different approach, John. I believe that more people would have a go at repairing their TVs if they had access to service information. This information has not been readily available since the 1970s.

At one time major libraries had a series of books entitled ‘Radio and Television Servicing’ in their reference collection and when photocopiers arrived it was easy to make a copy of the relevant pages. This information helped me fix TVs belonging to family and friends. For me, being able to repair products is more rewarding than watching the Final Cup (or whatever it’s called) on the TV.

I am with John on this. I doubt many will repair electronic products,particularly tvs. And they do appear to be extremely reliable; I, and no one in my family, has ever had one fail other than after a long life (although I, personally, have never bought a cheapo brand). But certainly products with motors, pumps, belts switches, brushes, mechanical bits……….., I would certainly expect a large number of people to tackle.

My neighbour’s hedgetrimmer stopped working because the brushes had worn down. They were an integral part of the housing, he tells me, and that spare was not available. So he bought generic brushes, soldered them in place and now he is up and running again.

I would like to see an expansion of the repair clubs, where volunteers who are familiar with different types of product get together to help people fix their problems.

Many repairs don’t require spares. When the drain pump on my old dishwasher ran continuously a couple of years ago I found two helpful YouTube videos. Neither was for the same model but they helped me identify the cause and fix it. Until then I had not inspected the innards of a dishwasher.

“I am with John on this. I doubt many will repair electronic products,particularly tvs. And they do appear to be extremely reliable; I, and no one in my family, has ever had one fail other than after a long life (although I, personally, have never bought a cheapo brand). But certainly products with motors, pumps, belts switches, brushes, mechanical bits……….., I would certainly expect a large number of people to tackle.”

I guess there’s the exception to every rule {grin}. About 20 years ago a decent sized (43?47?) Panasonic TV – been in service about 5 years – and started to struggle to turn on and occasionally turned off by itself. This to me smacked of power supply electrolytics. Whipped the back off to see the power board with several bulging caps. Looked at the printed board number – googled it – ordered one from EBay – swap was simples.

I also have an old RAID array which serves a good purpose – a replacement would be a grand or more. Last year that started locking up on a progressively shorter time between power cycles and I suspected the same thing – and sure enough the mother board was sprinkled with electrolytics, many of which were bulging. However, I had no such luck on googling for this board or a donor box. I only gave myself a 20% chance of being abler to desolder and resolder approx 20 electrolytics without damaging the (plated hole) PCB – but I went for it anyway (parts were cheap) – and all is well with that too now.

With such empirical and (for me from the electronics industry) easy diagnosis I guess a service manual is only needed if dismantling has some gotchas up its sleeve.

“I would like to see an expansion of the repair clubs, where volunteers who are familiar with different types of product get together to help people fix their problems.”

Hear hear. However, this is not without risk – and potentially a minefield if and when things don’t work out as planned and more damage is done.

That’s an encouraging tale, Roger. Looking for bulging capacitors and heat-damaged components can sometimes provide the clues needed for an inexpensive repair.

I agree that there is a risk of doing more damage when trying to make a repair but if the product would otherwise be scrapped it could be a risk worth taking. Organised repair clubs could help people carry out potentially dangerous work in a safe way.

Tangram wrote: “I’m a competent mechanic and a qualified electronics technician.” In that position I would be extremely annoyed about being expected to pay others to carry out repairs.

” Organised repair clubs could help people carry out potentially dangerous work in a safe way.”

And do mutual back-scratching at shared risk…

I take broken electrical goods to the waste recycling facility where they either sell them or get them repaired by enthusiasts. Although i turn my hand to nearly all the home handyman tasks, I don’t get any satisfaction from fixing electro or mechanical things. I just try and make sure I get reliable goods in the first place and, touch wood, I have generally succeeded.

That’s like me and ladders. Although I have never had an accident I’m not comfortable climbing anything taller than a stepladder and will happily pay others to do jobs.

Even if goods are reliable, there are wear & tear parts such as motor brushes and lamps that periodically need to be replaced.