It’s oh so quiet in M&S, is this music to your ears?

Ah, taking a specific task such as studying and extending the results to cover all situations is not a supportable argument. I would not have expected our design and office staff to have listened to background music, nor did they suggest it, but those on more routine jobs on the factory floor did ask for and enjoyed it. To be fair, the music was not “controversial” in its genre – not too loud, neutral enough for most tastes.

malcolm isnt that bringing genetics into play ie- grading the innate intelligence of a human being on the level of intelligence required to do a job ? Watch out or the PC mob will be after you – 11+ exams — stopped etc . Shades of a certain ww2 point of view -muzak for the “masses ” serene silence for those thinking on “higher things ” . ergo –those that like muzak in supermarkets have “downgraded” IQ,s ???

Duncan, my take on Malcolm’s point is that the desire to “whistle-while-you-work” is task specific – not IQ specific.

I enjoying having background music if I’m driving but I don’t want it when I’m doing desk work. I don’t actually find it distracting then – but if I’m concentrating properly on design and analysis work, I end up just blanking it out – so then there is no point in putting it on in the first place.

But he was using that as an example to say my comment on young people not liking muzak more when doing or studying exams belies the general/universal opinion that young people need/enjoy constant background muzak . Most adverts come with background music its built into the younger generation (generally held conclusion maybe wrong but held anyway ) -music= buy this or that -supermarkets are just an extension of the TV screen . Cameron,as we speak, is using the same ploy aimed at young people saying -its their generation who are opposed to a Brexit while (obsolete thinking ) old people are for a Brexit this is even being taken up in the US as they dont want a Brexit for selfish financial reasons. Isnt this “ageist ” in both directions and forming a conclusion in both directions ? What my point made was that young people are not really different from the older generation when it comes down to built in natural thinking noise including music changes their concentration . Okay so some people can blank it out but its seems that the general public hold some strong views on it so it obviously effects them .

duncan, not at all. I was drawing no distinction between the “intelligence”, as you put it, of the different groups of staff. Simply the type of job they had chosen to do. One requires, for example, concentration on problems, interaction directly or by phone with outsiders such as suppliers or customers, where obtrusive background music would have been inappropriate. The other involved more routine and repetitive work where, as when I am in my workshop or the garden for example, music in the background is “company”.

I think suggesting that unintelligent people are put in certain jobs and intelligent in others is a perception that is well out of date. Ability is different, as we see from people for example who do degrees, apprenticeships, trades.

“Music while you work” was only played for half hour in the morning and half hour in the afternoon. I expect it seemed like a welcome diversion from worries about the war and loved ones, and did seem to improve productivity. The type of music was carefully chosen though and the volume kept in check.

We live in such a different world now, one in which noise is everywhere and inescapable.

“We live in such a different world now, one in which noise is everywhere and inescapable.” I lived in an industrial city when Music While You Work was broadcast and I’d say it was as noisy then as now – certainly I don’t see today being significantly worse. Throngs of people were just as noisy, there were noisy trams, buses, steam trains, rattling goods trains. Every Sunday morning a Boys Brigade bugle and drum band slowly made its way up our road, ensuring a lie-in was an awake one. But we managed to live through that as part of life. We also I suggest have just as many worries now as then, just replacing some types with other types.

Everyone’s life experience is different. I was not alive during WW2 and I didn’t live in an area surrounded by factories as I was growing up but I now live near a road where the traffic does not stop, day or night, whereas you now live in a rural area.

I think that many people’s hearing was probably damaged by the noise in factories during and after WW2. Now there is more protection for such workers.

To be sure there were industrial areas that were very noisy in your youth, but I think that more people are generally affected by noise now than then.

At the beginning of the twentieth century there were about 8,000 cars in Britain, now there are about 35 million. The WHO considers noise pollution from cars to be a serious problem.

However, when I made the comment about noise I was thinking more of the topic of this convo, which is almost inescapable “music” in public places.

My point about “music while you work” was that half hour in the morning and half hour in the afternoon might have seemed like a pleasant change ( or maybe not if they didn’t like it). It certainly would not have been Mariah Carey screaming her lungs out!

diesel

I have a friend in her forties who got a Walkman as soon as they appeared and has been wearing ear buds in public places ever since then. She already has quite a bit of hearing loss and frequently has to ask people to repeat what they said.

Of course, this may have happened to her anyway but there seems to be no genetic hearing loss in her family and she works in a quiet environment.

Dorothy, may I agree with you that research should be fully read before drawing particular conclusions. I am in favour of knowing real facts when considering a decision. These should include effects on different groups of people, if known rather than surmised.

I am always a little wary of “campaigns” and campaign groups, because they, clearly, have taken a particular point of view and then seek to persuade others to the cause. Rather like being selective in quoting from research they might (perish the thought) be less than forthcoming about information that does not support their campaign. Regrettably some Which? campaigns (even) fall into this category.

I might be hard to shift from some of my preconceived ideas but I do like to see fair, balanced and factual cases put forward, particularly when we want to change something. An example of a campaign that exemplifies all that is bad (in my view) is the EU Brexit/Remain one. Have you ever seen worse attempts to influence an intelligent electorate (well, apart from General Elections perhaps)?

Hope this link works, Dax5
http://www.acrwebsite.org/search/view-conference-proceedings.aspx?Id=7531

My dentist plays local radio in his waiting room (I think radio is the cheapest option when it comes to purchasing music licences). On my last but one visit I had to listen to a quiz, two car adverts and some rap music, none of which I wanted to hear. On my last visit I was given graphic details of a child abuse and murder case. Trouble with radio and TV news channels is that the doctor/dentist has no control over what might be broadcast. I have written to my dentist but was assured that everyone else liked it…

Thank you Dorothy. The link was fine, and it’s not too long to read through. Well done finding these things.

I have sat in hospital waiting rooms when accompanying a relative who has a lot of health problems where everyone has had to put up with daytime television programmes discussing cheerful subjects such as Alzheimers disease and the spread of global terrorism. Lovely…

🙂

That’s odd, Bill. Did you look at the comments from the press coverage last week? It was something like 95% supporting M&S switching off the music and 5% opposing it. I asked the staff in my local M&S and so far most seem happy although one or two in our local M&S outlet are finding it a bit quiet. As a customer I am loving being able to browse again.

Hmmm… forgive my prejudice, but “lots of people on Facebook/Twitter” says something significant about that democratic to me.

Suggests that M & S are getting it right!

Your right Derek but there is an app for that , its usually American websites when you access them . I have a real hi-fi speakers ( meant for upmarket non- computer use ) with a good hi-fi amp attached to a £200 audio card and when it comes through its like its broadcasting to the street using TV advertising methods . Some browsers allow you to cut the audio. Its called compression instead of sound peaks at 75DB you get a “wall of sound ” at the maximum allowed amplitude which doesnt actually exceed the legally allowed volume but sounds like its full volume. The US brought out laws against it but its all talk and no real action or heavy fines.

Completely agree. Boots is one of the worst offenders and it’s almost impossible to find a coffee chain in London that’s free from the menace of canned music. Interestingly some branches of Cafe Nero (e.g. Blackwells Oxford) and the CoOp (in Charlbury) don’t have it – probably because the locals objected – so it is possibel. More and more banks are succumbing and almost always the staff say they can do nothing about it. Wilko used to be OK, but have succumbed. I never go to the DIY “sheds” because of it.
Dentists, GPs and the NHS Blood donor clinics increasingly are offenders. The latter cite patient privacy (a dubious claim as you’re forced to speak up to be heard). I’ve given up trying to get the message across to dentists. I always take my noise-cancelling headphones to the GP surgery – the last thing an ill patient wants is to be made worse by somene elses music. I seriously consider stopping my blood donations every time I go because of the loud music.

Robert hello. Do noise-cancelling headphones block out all sound? I am driven to distraction at the gym by wailing divas fretting on about their bad life-choices. Would these headphones help?

Sorry Jacquie – no! They are great at constant noises – e.g. the roar of a planes engines, but you still hear the “outline” of the music, and it’s potentially even more annoying. Tried it!

I still make a habit of telling the staff/management if my anger hasn’t reached such proportions that the only way is a rapid exit!!

Thank you for that, Dax5. Could be useful ammunition in getting pharmacies to switch off music. Wonder if there is a British equivalent. Will have a look.

In the UK a superstore [like a large Asda, Morrison, Sainsbury’s, Tesco or Waitrose] is generally around 30,000 square feet [3,000 square metres]. Multi-storey department stores might be several times larger. Shopping malls vary widely and are often on different levels of different areas. Presumably for music performance licences the floorspace in malls excludes the areas contained within the individual units since most retailers seem to have their own conflicting choice of music.

According to PEYE PRS for Music fees are £1600 per year per 10 000 sq metres of floor space.

I once asked M&S how much it cost them to play background music and was told that the information was “business sensitive”. Received the same reply from Nationwide. Was a bit miffed at the latter’s response because I am one of their customers and felt they were using my money to pay for it!

Clearly it is a business embarrassment.

Yes, that’s for the standard rate for the PRS licence. The PPL licence standard rate is about £220 per 1,000 sq metres of audible space. Both of those figures are before VAT is added.

I have not found anywhere how much the companies who organise and pipe in the actual music charge for the service.

For companies with hundreds of large stores [M&S has over 800] the total cost of the piped music service is considerable and although only a small percentage of overall operating costs it is entirely avoidable. The cost obviously inflates retail prices and the VAT gets passed through into the overall VAT paid by shoppers.

The companies that provide the music service probably charge quite a lot as they have to organise the transmission system and pay the carriers for airtime, supply and maintain the in-store receiver and broadcast equipment, identify the playlist specification, source the music tracks and cover all the copyright and reproduction issues [maybe some overlap here with the PRS who deal with artistes’ royalties]. To the extent that original artistes’ recordings are rarely used there is presumably an organisation hidden within this web that commissions and records the cover versions using session artistes and musicians. Ignoring all other concerns with regard to piped music, the notion that the annual costs are exceeded by additional profits seems hard to sustain.

The PRS collected over £500 million last year for distribution as royalties. Much of that money comes from firms who use music in their workplaces but I would not be surprised if half of it came from retailers and shopping malls. Added to the broadcast service charges and VAT that’s a lot of money added to consumers’ shopping bills. Another good reason to keep protesting about this annoyance since we are paying for it through the nose as well with our ears.

How on earth banks and building societies can justify this expense when their charges are so high and their interest rates so low amazes me. They give this weak excuse that background music helps preserve customer confidentiality. Well, if they had kept a bit more of the mahogany instead of turning their branches into open plan leisure lounges they might not have had such a problem.

I’ve just read the ‘This is Money’ article. It doesn’t say that a complete ban has been imposed, and it looks as though we might be in the same situation as we have been for some time, whereby individual branch managers are free to decide whether or not to use piped music.

I went into a Waterstones a few days ago that still had music playing.

Yes indeed; the article states that three quarters of Waterstone stores have stopped the piped music. This is old news really.

Chris

I have never spoken to a member of staff in any large shop who liked the music; they either preferred no music or didn’t like the kind of music that the shop played.

I’ve not been in a branch of M&S that was not pretty lively. People talking, laughing, children being children, the infernal self service machines nagging everyone, staff moving boxes and filling shelves. Even the fridges these days seem more powerful and emit a constant low noise. Hardly a morgue.

It’s just the sound of people and life. Life doesn’t need a constant musical soundtrack.

Now thats the best bit of practical philosophy I have heard in a long time Isuze.

Several posters including yourself have commented on hearing aids in relation to noise and you mention TV,s . I too am hard of hearing and wear two hearing aids but I have been provided by the Social Services an electronic unit that has a miniature mike placed near a TV speaker . It has a wearable unit that detaches from the main unit and keeps it charged which you put round your neck . This unit transmits to your hearing aid so that you get clear audio through them and you dont need to strain , if you are like me on a low income your SS should provide it free . I dont mind mentioning the name as it probably wont be available directly in the UK as it is German its Swing – by humantechnik.com/ . As I said on another post do not buy the equivalent from Age UK unless you are rich as their equivalents are dearer than elsewhere.

Duncan

When you are out and about , in shops or restaurants, do you find that piped music makes it harder to hear your companions or the staff?

The people that I know who have hearing aids say that it makes life a lot harder for them.

Thanks for asking Isuze I havent replied to Which,s email on my opinion yet but yes you are dead right general noise dampens the clarity of the person talking to me and by that I mean the music noise as I dont find it the least bit soothing just bl**dy irritating as it impinges on my concentration when inspecting and reading ingredients of food products as well . And yes I am a music enthusiast having expensive hi-fi gear and home built stuff so I am not anti-music its just I like to sit down in a room and listen to it via my Stax electrostatic earphones .

Yes, music, especially with lyrics, is meant to be listened to so it demands our attention. It’s hard to concentrate on anything unless you have the knack of blocking it out.

I think most people who post here like music but we want to choose what we listen to and when, and not have it forced on us. Constant piped noise just cheapens music so that it becomes what many have called “aural wallpaper”.

It’s unfair to make life harder for hearing impaired people by playing totally unnecessary music nearly everywhere. I think there is beginning to be quite a backlash against it. I have read articles that refer to background music ( and other types of noise pollution) as “second hand noise”, like second hand smoke. Something you are having a problem with but did not ask for, create or consent to.

Tricia, it is worth mentioning your discomfort to the shop assistants but they very rarely pass on comments from customers. They don’t want to be seen as “difficult” employees. And even M&S admit that the only complaints they listen to are those made to their HQ, not to individual stores. Far better to send an email or letter to the Chief Executives of Cath Kidston and Clarks. Now is a good time, with M&S switching off their music and both ASDA and selected intu shopping centres offering “quiet hours” to help customers who suffer from autism. We want to keep the momentum going!

Stopping it fully would be very harsh and worng for workers and people who like it but having some days a week of silence for the people who hate it is fair and will pleases everyone, to please only the people that want silence and have it off for good is worng and very unfair and will have more customers starting to shop on line destroying the High street.the future should be days with and with out music.

Many of us have been driven to shop online simply because the non-stop music drives us out of the High Street, Chris. As soon as my local branch of Waterstones switched off the music, I was able to browse again and make purchases. Would far rather do this than buy books online, even if it means paying slightly more.

Chris, how can the High St be destroyed by not piping music into shops when Primark is doing brilliantly well, expanding all the time it seems and is always busy despite having no music?

Duncan, I am never sure which way round this is. It is generally accepted that unwanted music is noise. “What is music in the ears of one person is just noise to other people”. Do people want music/noise in the background all the time because it relieves stress, or is it the continuous music/noise that causes the stress in the first place? I just came across this quote from Hear the World Foundation:
“It is not only our hearing that suffers from noise. Even low noise levels can trigger the release of stress hormones, leading to increased blood pressure. This in turn can lead to aggressive behavior and tensions in interactions with other people, as well as an increased risk of stroke, heart attack and tinnitus. Unwanted sources of noise also prevent relaxation, recovery and sleep and impair concentration and performance, particularly in children”.

Sally, if you read my post you will see I agree with you , that some people cant accept the realities of life is not my fault but others unwillingness to accept the truth which is before their eyes . As this boils down to Social Science and Political History people develop a political point of view in relation to a social problem and view it from there instead of holding an independent view which a non political -Social Scientist would who would analyse it from a neutral position .

i think the future to please every one and be fair they should have quiet mornings 5 days a week off Sundays and on Saturday when the younger people tend to shop and have it on afternoons during the week,people will have 1 full day and 5 half days of silence to shop and for the people who dont mind it can shop when ever with same with people who like it it will also be good way company’s to see when they make more money.this what i would like to see all company trailing and not just switching it off for good.

I have seen no evidence to suggest that the “younger people” are enthralled by the loudspeaker output in shops and public places. They don’t seem to hang around in B&Q or the Co-op either.

Malcolm, Action on Hearing Loss’s “Speak Easy” campaign was launched today. Full details on their website. And a big thank you to Which? for highlighting this problem, which affects so many people.

As somebody with extreme hearing loss in both ears and using the biggest most powerful NHS hearing aids and agree with malcolm,s post on the reduction in frequency response due to deafness as I have spent a good bit of my life building and repairing top end hi-fi and have a whole range of professional audio test gear which i can use to test my own frequency response can somebody tell me , as I am at a “LOSS” to determine why malcolm got 2 disagrees . I didnt try to change it because I want it publicized to highlight my puzzlement at this . IS anybody going to “enlighten me ” ??

Thanks Dorothy.

Hi Duncan – I can hazard a guess. Whenever someone posts a persuasive comment in support of the control of background music in shops and restaurants there are always some negative responses sometimes by way of a comment, otherwise by a ‘thumbs down’. There are a lot of people who are very displeased at the growing campaign to limit extraneous music and some of them express themselves in this way. From their earliest beginnings the ‘background music’ Conversations have attracted shop staff who feel the music made their day bearable and resent the switch-off in certain stores. Many people also like the loud music in pubs and restaurants and are upset that there are moves to tone it down. I can only assume that they have not given a moment’s thought to the difficulties and pain suffered by people with hearing impairment. Malcolm’s post was basically factual – not something you can agree or disagree with – but the thumbs down is a proxy for resentment I suppose.

Adding to John’s assessment I’d say that it’s also possible someone read Malcolm’s first sentence only and thought he was ‘having a go’. However, everyone should be aware that the administrators will be able to see exactly who voted which way. Perhaps that facility ought to be introduced for everyone.

Thanks for that elucidate reply John.

All off would be wrong it should be in some places so people have choice of places with music and with out music to please all types of customers

The comment to which my post above [timed at 08:19] related seems to have been removed. It was something like “I love loud music”.

My comments today are not related to Janet’s post which I agreed with.

I saw the comment too. It seemed a bit fishy but might have been a genuinely held opinion, not trawling.

It would be difficult to disentangle the reasons for any drop in sales. The company has reported poor performance in general merchandise and there are also seasonal and competitive factors at work. The BHS clear-out will have some temporary impact. M&S are missing their clothing sales targets, both in terms of volume and in terms of product acceptance, to such an extent that they are setting up a customer panel to advise the company on what customers really want and the right price points. That used to be M&S’s strong retail advantage. As for music, I suspect that once they have got the right style and value offer in their stores customers will return and will disregard the absence of music; if they don’t get it right, music is the least of their worries and will not revive a flagging brand.

One of the things that has put me off M&S is the introduction of logos or other on their clothing. So far I have not encountered music except at Christmas.