Episode 2013: the imperial system strikes back

Peter – you claim “This is precisely what governments are elected for, to address the needs of the electorate.”

Oh come on now! If that was true, we’d have capital punishment back, all immigrants would be rounded up and deported, and we’d not have been involved in recent wars in Iraq or Afghanistan. No – the government is elected to run the country as best it can for the country’s general benefit. What that means does depend on what party/parties get elected. But individual peoples’ whims are not likely to get taken seriously into account once they’re up and running.

Then, later “I wonder how many people actually order their petrol by the litre.”

Dunno about you, but I’ve never seen anyone “order petrol”. It’s all self-serve these days. You get out and put whatever you want into your tank. I typically put about 30 litres into mine on a fill. Others might put in £50’s worth or whatever. It’s up to them, but they never actually “order” it.

@swanseasteve

You honestly and purposely put 30 (or any other number) litres in? I have never seen that. So you would slow down the pump at – say – 27 litres and dribble the rest needed for 30? Then you pay the obscure/un-round-able cash? Wow – there’s commitment. Gimme gallons and I would’t do that.

My methods are

1) create intercourse betwixt car and ‘liquid gold machine’ pump. Grip the handle to start the fill. Check out the weather. Check out the girl at pump ‘2’. Check out the teenager with a Lambo. Then “CLUNK”. Stop. Wiggle. Holster. Cry at the numbers next to ‘£’ – then drive away or walk to the pay part.

2) “I’m in a hurry” – so I splosh 20 quid in – without accuracy – pay – drive to the urgency.

3) ..is abroad. The hire car contract states that you must leave the car with the key under the carpet with the same level petrol as when you picked it up. So I drive to the garage – put in a fiver’s worth, pay, then swear profusely as you beg the needle to move a bit more up – tapping it gently then hoping the hire company doesn’t notice.

I’ve only heard of another person who actually states/delivers a perfect ‘X’ litres – but he was slightly unhinged.

Here’s a tip. If you drive a diesel car look at the pump. If there is a black button (unmarked) above or under the holster then push it. The delivery is then in ‘Lorry-mode’. Only do this if you know your car can accept high speed dispensing.

When I fill my fuel can for the lawnmower, I put in exactly 10 litres. When the supermarket offers five or ten pence off per litre, I put in an exact number of litres.

@stimpy

“You honestly and purposely put 30 (or any other number) litres in? I have never seen that.”

Well, now you’ve heard of it, even if you haven’t seen it. Yes I do that regularly. 30L is a half a tank. For a while I was monitoring my fuel usage and round numbers of litres just made the sums come out looking neater. Turned out I was using 8.5L/100km in the end which is roughly what the car manual said I should expect, so nothing much wrong with the engine there….

“So you would slow down the pump at – say – 27 litres and dribble the rest needed for 30? Then you pay the obscure/un-round-able cash?”

Yeah – you just hand over your card and they debit what you’ve spent. It doesn’t matter what that amount is, as such.

“Wow – there’s commitment. Gimme gallons and I would’t do that.”

What, filling up with gallons is somehow different?? It’s just fuel, dude. Put in a given amount of fuel, or a given value of fuel or brim your tank or randomly put some fuel in – the units that count up on the pump have nothing to do with it!

@Wavechange

Well you’ve just proved to me that there are all sorts out there. I literally know of no-one who uses capacity of a fuel tank (which will have redial fuel in it) and then put a perfect number of decimally spot on litres to join an unknown quantity of ‘left overs’ in the tank.

Please forgive me for saying ‘odd’.

@swansea/abertawe

Wow – that’s just – well – “weird” ! Do you engage in Chemistry or something?

I’m sorry to tell you that 30L is only half a tank if you completely use up all your petrol. Oh PLEASE don’t tell me you use recovery trucks so you can retain accuracy? No way!

And then you use the data to generate a statistic that almost no-one will understand.

If you REALLY wanted to know info in modern UK speak you should-

1 – go to petrol station
2 – fill up untill it goes ‘clunk’
3 – reset your mileometer and do a load of driving
4 – do number ‘2’ again but keep note of the litre things and your mileage
5 – go to browser and ask ‘mpg from x litres and Y miles’ and you’ll get the mpg

Using the refill method does away with ‘reserve’ or unused petrol (unless you use a truck etc).

To your gallons remark about my gallons remark – it’s quite simple… The single overiding factor that is most important to almost every car driver is the numbers next to “£”. Nothing more/nothing less. Even if it was gallons (unless I wanted to make up a daft story that elevates the word “gallons” to more than a legal data requirement (unless, again, I was checking the mpg/

You lot are causing sparks in my brain box and as such cannot go near a petrol station!

Jeesh!

Stimpy

I don’t measure the amount of fuel every time I fill up, though I do every time I fill up fuel cans, simply because over-filling can cause leakage. In the past, I used to lug around 20 litre cans of red diesel for various purposes, and invariably filled them with the exact amount of fuel, which is very easy.

I’ve been described as a ‘maniac’ on Which? Conversation, so calling me ‘odd’ is very restrained. Perhaps you should re-read all your postings in opposition to completion of metrication, because that does not seem quite normal behaviour to me.

@wavechange

Your reasoning makes sense – it’s not something I’ve thought of before. I was imagining someone putting petrol in their car and filling it to the drop of a rounded litre.

Sorry if my use of ‘odd’ offended you – it was not my intention, it was more a throwaway remark for the circumstances.

You ask me to re-read my posts under the same ‘oddnicity’ (I just made a new word).Although my personal view is that I prefer imperial but use both depending on application. I cannot work in fractions of an inch except half and quarter; I use celsius when it gets cold and Fahrenheit when summer finally arrives (I believe the UK is the only place where such behaviour occurs).

In truth I’m more fascinated in the argument than in the detail. Essentially it’s about what numbers people use when they describe tallness, short distance, long distance, volume, etc etc. For whatever reason the subject matter can get as heated as a real hot topic like abortion or rape. I also recognise that only few people really like to argue about the subject. The majority doesn’t even know people debate this so passionately sometimes.

This is why I like this particular debate.

Stimpy

Thanks to various contributors (mainly David Ramsay in the previous Conversation, Peter Hargreaves and yourself), I have switched to using metric measures in conversation with older people, and this is working very well. Previously I had used imperial measures when talking to people of my age (I’m 61) or older, who have not had the benefit of learning the metric system at school. I will use metric measures when I revise an instruction booklet that is mainly used by retired people in a charity that I work for, and I have already updated the charity’s website to make these changes.

It’s great to find how well older people cope with the metric system. Your efforts to promote the imperial system are merely helping to remind me not to use it. If anyone struggles, I can use my experience of teaching to help get them on the right track.

I try to use metric values so far as possible. I’m doing a lot of DIY jobs at the moment and I thought everything would be in metric measurements. The actuality is entirely irrational. Timber seems to either be metricated to the absurd millimetre or sold as [say] 2″x1″ in curious lengths approximating to feet. Boxed woodscrews stick to inches for length. Try buying a garden shed – they are categorised in Imperial dimensions that are not even close to their actual sizes in some instances. I think this is all probably because retailers fear that the population just will not adapt, but if they started to use sensible and modular metric units life would be so much simpler and comprehensible with the relationship between sizes, weights and volumes more obvious. I also get tired of the assumption that anyone over fifty is totally incapable of coping with modern technology, new ideas and people from abroad, and any changes to the traditional “British” way of life [I shall resist the temptation to read anything into recent election results]. My view is that if I can manage it then practically anyone can.

John Ward, your post wandered into scientific approaches at one point (ie relationships between different metric units. All quite interesting but not very important when buying a shed. Can’t you see that shed sizes are mentioned in ft/in because people can relate it to body sizes. Without guessing you’d know exactly how useful a 6 ft tall 4 ft depth shed when comparing to a shed that’s 4ft tall and 6ft deep. Attempt it in millimetres.

Ok. Here’s a practical example of me trying to / wanting to try to / use metric some time ago. I wanted to put a cat flap in the back door (please don’t look for any euphemisms!). Initially I tried using the mm to gauge where to cut and how far etc. At this point I must say I am not good at numbers or people’s names! I still don’t know my wife’s mobile nr. So I tried to keep sets of 3 figure sizes, all different, in my head. I genuinely tried (please believe me!). Eventually I gave up and used the imperial instructions on the reverse of the form. 5 by 8 was the main figures I think. Anyway- imperial worked for me better on that occasion. But that’s the beauty of being in (what about 6 people call ‘mess’) a mixed unit democracy(-ish). I can still almost always choose.

Stimpy – Thanks for that response.

I suppose I am hoping for common sense and consistency across related categories, whether it’s cat flaps or flat caps, not the confusion that prevails at the moment where it depends which chain retailer you are in whether you have to switch on the requisite conversion formula in your brain. A local hardware store sells 50mm nails by the pound; given a choice I would buy fifty.

John – I thought it was illegal to trade in imperial units, so I wonder if your nails were marked in price per 454 g.

I always buy metric screws – which are readily available – and unlike nails, you can change your mind. 🙂

Go for self tapping – as you screw (ahem) you’d be going – mm – inches – mm – inches – mm – inches – LOL

Well – you are the first person I know of that fills the car up in exact quantities rather than ‘to full’ or an amount in £

Stimpy wrote: (although medication should be VERY carefully labeled in milligrammes only – microgrammes causes confuse and misplaced decimal points could be fatal)

Sorry, but this is another example of where you are completely wrong. I am an asthmatic and I use three common inhalers: salbutamol (100 microgram per dose), salmeterol (25 microgram) and beclometasone (100 micrograms). That is 0.1, 0.025 and 0.1 milligrams, respectively. As you say, decimal points could cause confusion – which is why the units are micrograms.

You say I am completely wrong and then drift to the middle ground. What was I wrong about? Can observations be wrong? To who?

I don’t think I can explain myself more clearly. Incidentally, microgram is abbreviated as mcg rather than the official symbol (containing the Greek letter mu) in recording drug doses. As you say, mistakes could be fatal.

@wavechange – the micro symbol to which you refer is quite abstract – I don’t even know how to ‘compose’ it on my Mac. The trouble with ‘mcg’ is that it’s not strictly SI, not even tolerated. Correct me if I’m wrong but ‘c’ is the symbol for candela? calorie? Anyway- it is not metric. But you – being a reasonable chap – would say that it’s ‘loosely correct and tolerable to use mcg as a rule bender.’.
More importantly – I’m sorry to hear of your health issue and I hope the drugs allow you to keep it in remission enough to enjoy life as normal as possible.

Stimpy

To produce the Greek letter mu in Microsoft Word 2011 for Mac, hold down Alt and press m , or choose Insert > Symbol and find mu.

The SI symbol for candela is cd.

Just look up microgram in Wikipedia and you will see that mcg is an acceptable abbreviation, though not the SI abbreviation. As a scientist, I have never once used mcg, but if it can avoid giving someone a drug overdose, that makes sense. The British National Formulary (a list of drugs and doses available for prescription that is on every GPs desk) advises that ‘micrograms’ is written in full on prescription forms.

Using mcg is not the only example of use of an alternative to the SI unit. When writing papers and reports, scientists often use L instead of l for litres because the lower case version looks like the number one in many fonts.

It’s best to use kJ instead of calories since in the context of food, calorie generally refers to 1000 calories or 1 kcal. Moving to kJ is one area where we are actually making some progress.

If you had chosen science subject at school, I think you would have seen the benefits of getting rid of the imperial system.

wavechange – I take on what you say with some interest and I would definitely spell out the whole word to be on the safe side.

I did science at school and naturally I expected and got metric stuff. They’re just numbers,

I see no benefit whatsoever in ‘getting rid’ of imperial units. Like it or not imperial is preferred over metric when out of the science block or not being forced. Even GP/doctors would revert to stones, feet, etc when shovelling the money into their boots. It’s the UK. it’s how people talk about how long things are or what stuff weighs. It was a non issue before brussels wrestled grey John Major into signing even more sovereignty away. Cymraeg (Welsh) is a language used by many people in the UK/Wales. Why don’t we “get rid” of that while we’re at it.

What a load of codswallop!
” It’s the UK. it’s how people talk about how long things are or what stuff weighs. It was a non issue before brussels wrestled grey John Major into signing even more sovereignty away.”
Well, I’m 82 now, and it’s 150 years since the Select Committee in Queen Victoria’s reign recommended metrication. Do I have to wait another 150 years for a sensible measuring system? As she might well have said “We are not amused”

@Sears

Do you know what ‘Codswallop’ is? It’s not a criticism – it’s a real question. ‘Spose a quick look on Wikipedia will tell me.

Anyhow – you seems to poo-poo my quote and then go on to subliminally agree with it by stating whether you’d have to live another….etc etc

Totally different angle for the moment – It’s nice to see a 80+ year old without technophobia and using the web. You have become the oldest person I know that does this.

Of course I know what codswallop is, and up with it I will not put. It’s the use of old nonsensical measures as if our very cultural identity depends on them. I used to make commercial documentary films and showing one made in Syria in 1963 to the Geographical Association recently I had to admit to my shame that the distances, temperatures and weights were in those parochial imperial measurements. It really seemed very odd and to my mind made the film now seem very amateurish. Slight saving grace- the film had foreign language versions using universal metric measures. Gott sei Dank! (OK, I may be 82, but what’s that got to do with use of the metric system? Just used it to show how slowly grind the wheels of reform in this country)

@Stimpy
“Like it or not imperial is preferred over metric”

Oh, rubbish! It’s nothing to do with preference, it’s to do with familiarity. Loads of under-30s habitually use imperial measurements for things because their parents did that and because they get bombarded with imperial measures with every news bulletin on Radio 1, or any time a Radio 1 DJ mentions anything involving measurement. If you look at some rare aspect of life where the BBC *has* metricated (like with temperatures on weather forecasts for instance) you find the entire population has happily switched to using those same units with no fuss and no bother. When did you last hear anyone refer to the temperature in Fahrenheit?

We, the pro-metric brigade, are merely fed up that our youth can visibly be seen throwing away the expensive education that *we* paid for, making themselves less employable on the international stage because they feel they have to conform with Radio 1, their own parents and their peer group (all of whom suffer the same problem). Thay could gang up and go “stuff this, we’re 21st century kids – enough with the granny units”. But that takes organisation, and no-one’s providing it.

” It was a non issue before brussels wrestled grey John Major into signing even more sovereignty away.”

Oh, come on! Don’t try and blame it on the bloody E.U. Thay’ve got nothing to do with metric. It’s a world system. Sure the other countries of the E.U. use metric exclusively, but that’s just because they consider themselves “part of the world”.

As should we.

@sears..
I had to look up cods wallop on Wiktionary and I’m still not sure!
The use of ‘old nonsensible measures’ *IS* part of our culture. And I’m not just referring to the pint of beer or milk. The measurements are interweaved into conversation in an ‘official’ way and in a colloquial way. It’s just the way it is. It’s like foreign pop-groups use English despite being Norwegian or Italian and using ‘miles’ in their lyrics. Even THINKING about using km in a song seems clinical. If ‘foreigners’ use our measurement units then WE should at least teach our kids what it all means. They’re going to learn it in ‘life’ anyway (and please don’t do the ‘ask them how many yards in a mile’ thing – when would such a conversation come up?). I was schooled in the Thatcher years (Thatcher’s babies) and – ironically – imperial was dropped from the curriculum. We still knew it though. Peer pressure and family. Tony Blair’s govt brought it back in. Wow – Tony Blair and good thing in the same sentence.

That film you were talking about – ever known where ‘footage’ comes from? 🙂

Please don’t take my remark about age as being noteworthy to the topic – nor was it a form of abuse. I was encouraged and delighted to see Macs (and PC’s) being used by – erm – the more senior in society and I actively encourage it. Unfortunately my Nan has only recently got to grips with a landline phone. We can forget internet! Thus – please see my remark as a remark of (non-patronising) respect.

Familiarity = choice = preference. Metric is there to be used, sometimes even forced.
See it like Welsh (I’m Welsh btw). In West and North West Wales people of all ages choose to talk in Welsh. They have the choice of English as that is in the curriculum (as is Welsh) however they could converse in English because EVERYONE knows English. Why do they do that? To p*ss off English people ‘entering the shop’? Nope – very few people use nationalism within a dull subject that hardly anyone can be bothered with (eg – the turnout of having a Welsh assembly). They do it because Welsh is very melodic and consistent and, if you can speak it, feels more poetic than ‘standard English’. Embarrassingly cymro ydw i but my grammar lets me down.

“If you look at some rare aspect of life where the BBC *has* metricated (like with temperatures on weather forecasts for instance) ”

Don’t you notice the emphasis on Fahrenheit by some forecasters if it’s going to be warm – granted it’s usually like ‘mid eighties’. I do hear from people returning from hols mentioning it being OTT and in the high 90’s. Come winter and I totally agree – 32 F is rare to hear – although Sian Lloyd does mention ‘F’ regardless of year position. I believe it is up to the forecaster if he/she wants to include it (except LBC who force the use of C-only).

“they feel they have to conform with Radio 1, their own parents and their peer group (all of whom suffer the same problem). Thay could gang up and go “stuff this, we’re 21st century kids – enough with the granny units”. But that takes organisation, and no-one’s providing it.”

You talk of conformity and problems – do people REALLY think like that? Ok – I agree that enforced ‘conformity’ exists (no prize for which ‘side’). What do you suggest then? Ban Radio 1? Fine them for using words not allowed by the state? How about the parents – do they get put on a training course or risk the local authorities stepping in regarding family matters? Do you police peer groups? I would hate to live in that country. I really cannot see kids ‘ganging up’ and saying ‘stuff this we’re gonna use different terms and an alternative decimal based cool thang!’ You can see the reason why no-one’s agreeing with it because nature and nurture overtake enforcement.

“Oh, come on! Don’t try and blame it on the bloody E.U.”
Major signed Maastricht – that’s where the ‘come down heavy on the market stalls who speak British’. Funnily enough I do not believe the topic was included in any manifesto.

And we all know the ‘UKIP-factor’ (lets not branch down that route!)

Just look at Wikipedia and you can discover which of the old coins remained valid after decimalization, on 15 February 1971.

@Stimpy

‘“Businesses are allowed” LOL – how gracious – can we have some more sir? :-)’

Stimpy, obviously you and I weren’t around at the time, but when Imperial was the dominant system throughout most of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century, it was *enforced*. There were stiff fines for failing to sell in approved Imperial amounts, there were fines for using non-officially calibrated scales. That’s what trading standards officers were there for – they raided businesses on a random basis checking up on these sorts of things. If you wanted to sell potatoes by the bushel after 1826 you were likely to end up with a fine or in jail.

These days, trading standards officials seem to have been told to forget about enforcing metric as a system, an therefore we see all the persistent nonsense of two systems running side-by-side, messing up our children and making Romanian immigrants’ children a better employment bet than local kids for certain jobs. This isn’t what I pay my taxes for!

If you “choose” to celebrate Bastille day by driving on the right hand side of the road, I suspect you won’t get far before you have a mighty accident, and (assuming you survive) will be arrested and thrown in the clink. People don’t (and mustn’t) have the freedom to choose which side of the road they drive on – but I bet I don’t hear you complain about that. You shouldn’t have the freedom (as a shop owner) to sell things in anything other than the approved measurement system of the day.

From 1826 – 1965 that was Imperial.
From 1965 – present that should have been metric.

And if it had been done like that no-one would have batted an eyelid, and we wouldn’t be having this discussion now!

As an aside: James May’s Man Lab (Series 3) featured an article in which the hapless Rory got to run a Whelk Stall. He had a poster on his stall advertising “3oz whelks – £4”.

Illegal!!

He got raided by the street market’s Trading Standards man who *ignored* that, but had noticed that the hapless Rory wasn’t displaying a Food Safety and Hygine certificate. So Rory had to close his stall for half a day and get such a certificate. When he resumed that afternoon, he continued trying to sell by the illegal 3oz and no-one stopped him. If he’d tried the equivalent in 1826 (i.e selling in Queen Anne units, not imperial) he would have copped it.

@swansealove
You miss my point – and that is forcing change when no-one (internally) asked for it. I say ‘no-one’ based on severe probability figures.

Also – don’t you find it good that TSO’s are ticking people off on hygiene rather than arriving with police to take scales away? I’m more than happy for them to put health before little numbers.

The two best known systems of measure are Imperial and metric and assumptions are usually made – however you have drifted into localised measures used by other countries that are neither of the two. Good luck to them.
I believe that in Sweden a mile is 10km (I think it’s Sweden). That’s one hell of a mile but there you go.
I think it was malaysia or south Korea that recently decided to push for full metrication. How? You got it! By force! “Metrication is so popular it has to be forced on people”. I think there were v.large fines for using local measures (remind you of anyone?). I suspect that North Korea will be steadfastly metric!
Anyway – mines 1 rotolo of Magners, if you’re asking…..

Nice post. I recently saw the absurdity of forcing metric. There was a car park (you can check it out – it’s the Swan in High Wycombe) which shows height clearance in feet and then in millimetres right down to the unrounded millimetre). I have no doubt the comedy is common.

Nice post indeed… but in my mind you actually pointed out what much of the problem is. I have a tape measure, rulers and bathroom scales that ONLY measure in metric, they were purchased in France and there was no imperial option on any of then. What this means is that when I measure something there are no imperial measures to get in the way or cause any confusion.

In example 1 you quote the size of paint brushes… I find no problems with 25, 50, 75 and 100 mm sized, in fact if they didn’t show the ” on the other side of any of the brands nobody would know there was a problem. In fact I would use screw lengths as a better example… it’s easy to know that 25, 30, 35, 40, 45 and 50 mm are increasing in size but what about 1″, 1 1/8″, 1 1/4″ 1 3/8″, 1 1/2″, 1 5/8″… looks complicated to me.

Example 2 you’re hanging a fire door… my tape measure has no inches so it is easy to see both cm and mm markings. What precision do we need? 0.5 or 1 cm precision?

Example 3 is the same… I’m sure your 5 foot high fence isn’t exactly 5 foot in the same way as my 1.8 metre high fence is not exactly 1.8 metres… if I measure something like that at 1854 mm I’m just going to write 1.8 metres, you don’t need any better precision than that for a fence any more than you need to know it’s 5 foot 3/8 inch.

Example 4 is no different. You choose the level of precision you need depending on the job you’re doing. If you need to machine parts to they fit snugly then you use mm… even if it’s something big like a window you may need to do this but if you’re going to drive a car through a hole in a wall then rounded to the nearest .1 metres will be sufficient, the only reason why people insist on writing 1800 mm is because there seems to be an obsession with some Brits with equating metric with absolute precision when this is not actually the case. Yes, metric is ideal when precision is preferred because of the millimetre and the fact that fractions are not used but that doesn’t mean you have to use it in every case.

After all, my bathroom scales say I weigh 79 kg, I’m not interested in knowing it to the nearest .1 kg in the same way as I’m happy to say I’m 1.8 metres tall, measuring myself to the nearest mm isn’t important. On the other hand that few mm might make the difference between that new pane of glass fitting or not, I’m not going to mess about with x/y of an inch because I’m just going to get confused!

As has been said elsewhere, remove the constant references to imperial measures in media and people would soon stop using them… this would not change our culture and theatre fans could still have their pound of flesh.

Alex – Every tape measure I own has the imperial scale at the top, which is very annoying. It is fairly easy to buy steel rules that are metric-only or the metric and imperial scales are on opposite sides. It should not be necessary to go to France or order a tape measure online.

Which is precisely why I wanted a metric-only tape measure, on one trip to France there was an opportunity to get one so I took it and haven’t regretted it.

I have noted that occasionally the budget tape measures sold by the supermarkets are metric only but you just cannot get anything more heavy duty in DIY stores… I know, I’ve asked. Obtaining metric-only kitchen implements is just as hard, if not harder. The “pint” and “fl oz” markings on measuring jugs get in the way much more than inches on tape measures!

I use digital scales to measure the weight of liquid ingredients when cooking, and assume that 1 gram is equivalent to 1 ml. It can save time and cut down on washing-up.

It’s a long time since I last looked at tape measures, so I will have a look in B&Q this afternoon.

Thank you, Peter, for your extensive response to my previous post [06/05/13 @ 11:09]. I can see what you’re saying but I tend to side with Alex on this one. It is curious that you mention “large DIY stores who often employ older people”, because I was thinking about B&Q when I wrote about dimensions to “the absurd millimetre”; they have metricated in a quite unhelpful fashion and I think this is the root of the problem in the UK. In the absence of determination to use either one system or the other universally it has become a free-for-all with common sense going out of the window.

@wavechange
I can save you some bother in B&Q. All their measures are imperial on the top and metric underneath. I’ve complained to them about that before. What’s the point in selling 5 different brands of tape measure that are all effectively the same thing??

It would be more sensible if some measures were metric on top, imperial underneath. And if some were metric-only.

I managed to buy a nice 5m metric-only tape in Tesco’s of all places, and it’s my tape of choice when doing anything. You can read it starting from the left or starting fron the right, those pesky inch things don’t get in the way either way!

I would expect that Aldi and Lidl are good places to look for metric-only tapes, but your best online bet for buying them is Amazon. I found several on offer there – Stanley “Fat Max” amongst the brands I recall.

I bought a 50m metric-only surveyors’ tape in Lidl once, BTW.

I forgot about the tape measures when I went to B&Q. I visit Lidl for their cheap hardware, so will keep my eyes open and also look in Tesco. Thanks for the tip.

Sorry to nip into another chat – although thats what forums are for.
You seem to be coming to the middle a bit and in many cases state that either imperial or metric is fine and the super-accuracy is the big issue. That and fractionalised inches – which I don’t like too (except the easy fractions!)
Your french measure – have you noticed that the UK tapes show imperial as the prominent measure – ie on the most convenient side?

Paint brushes — Prior to entering the store I will have a picture in my mind of which paint brush to get. I can ‘see’ 2 inches, 6 inches etc. Give me mm and I’ll either wait and see the visable side or do some divisions.

Doors – correct me if I’m wrong but the professionals know that a standard door height is 72 (?) inches high and also inch depth. I actually don’t like ‘big inches’ because you may as well use metric. Imperial allows sub sizes – so 6 foot 4 in. gives me a mind image better than XX inches.

“After all, my bathroom scales say I weigh 79 kg”
I will put a tenner on the fact that over 90% of Brits will focus on the st/lb (or switched the digital ones accordingly). This includes Mr Farage’s figures 😉

“As has been said elsewhere, remove the constant references to imperial measures in media and people would soon stop using them”

I strongly disagree. Sometimes the media ‘pretends’ we are all happy with metric and uses it to the detriment of the viewer/listener. Casual conversation might be almost entirely imperial though (but you can’t force people to stop…..err….can you?)

@wavechange – ebay is the way!!!

@John Ward – ’tis funny because I find the teen to 40 staff go with imperial default and middle-age-plus are the ‘metricons’ as it were. Maybe it’s regional.

@wc

Be honest – if you entered Lidl or Aldi would you wear a disguise?

[humour]

Stanley do make metric only metal (builders) retractible tape measures, but they are hard to find in the UK but are common in Australia and NZ. The following are Stanley part numbers

33-732 Stanley Fat Max 8m (has both millimetre markings and millimetre numbering)
33-966 Stanley Max 8m (same as above)
30-528 Stanley Leverlock 8m (same as above) this is the one I have and I find the magnetic leverlock very handly.

The tape measures above are 8 m but they also make the 5 m as above but I dont have the part numbers for them.

I hope this helps anyone wanting to purchase metric only builders tapes.

!!!!

I might well do that

Malcolm – Having worked in teaching at university level, I would like to defend change in teaching methods, but I certainly do not support change for the sake of it. I could give plenty of examples, but that would not be relevant here. Anyone who has brought up children will know that a lot has changed since they were children themselves.

I’m not against change, but I would like to see stability – in both methods and in examinations. Brought up in an era of O, AS and A level and meaningful degrees, I wonder what was really wrong with them – except perhaps not letting under-achievers through. There were other qualifications available, ONC, HNC, apprenticeships and vocational for those more talented in trade skills for example.
My children were brought up in the post-imperial era, have become very imaginative engineers, and we communicate effectively!

Malcolm

There are many valid reasons for change in education. The ability to carry around information has been debased thanks to computers and the Internet. Our parents’ generation did more learning by rote than we did, so this change had started long before computers. Kids of today are surrounded by a vast amount of information and it’s important that they develop critical thinking skills to help evaluate the quality of what they read. It is so much easier to copy information that children have to learn what is acceptable at an earlier age.

Many people of our generation can do mental arithmetic and although I still feel that this is worthwhile learning, it is a bit of a lost cause. The introduction of the pocket calculator was probably the main reason for this change.

I could not agree more about the decline in degree standards, and that is the fault of successive governments pushing large numbers of school-leavers straight into higher education, often irrespective of their motivation and ability. Coping with weaker students often means that the better ones are not challenged and it is difficult for them to reach their full potential. Having said that, education at all levels has moved on to help people who would not have succeeded in our day. It is wonderful what people with dyslexia and other fairly common problems can achieve if their condition is recognised and some thought is give to teaching and assessment methods. Towards the end of my teaching career I specialised in modules with class sizes of around 250, making extensive use of learning support delivered online, peer support and interesting practicals to help engage with the students. It’s a lot more challenging than having classes of 30, which I experienced when I did my degree. I see no need for revolution, but plenty of reason for evolution.

Despite all the changes, understanding how to use units and remembering some conversions is an example of where Victorian teaching methods still have a place in education.

I agree about the apprenticeships and vocational skills too. I really don’t trust government (any government) to look after education.

@Malcolm R
Re your comment “While we still use miles and pints then there needs to be knowledge of imperial”
Isn’t the simple answer to this to stop using miles and pints rather than letting the tail wag the dog?

“But it is my choice how I choose to use measurements in my personal life. Others can make their choice, but not impose on anyone what they should and should not do – thankfully.”

Hear hear!

@Malcolm – Are they STILL allowing calculators into maths exams?

Why not go the whole hog and let kids use Wikipedia in their history exams, “writes Mr Angry from Kent” (I had to add that last bit to prevent me looking like a Daily Mail worshipper).

@CVS – -you can see from other posters that ‘miles and pints’ is very abbreviated from ‘imperial generally’ although I do get your ultimate point.

CVS – I didn’t state that “simple” solution; but certainly if that is what everyone wants, then you are not wrong. My point was that while we have these units in use they need to be understood.

Stimpy, no idea about calculators, but I see no problem in using them – in my day it was a slide rule (but not for maths). If you were testing arithmetic (still taught?) then no calculators is my vote. We should still encourage mental arithmetic, so when you are shopping or comparing deals you can work out the answer without having to dig out your mobile phone. A number of Conversations show how a lack of numeracy is a real hindrance to making everyday choices.

@MalcolmR
Rising A-level scores, etc. Could technology have something to do with it? Rhetorical (!)

Rising A level scores is down to reduced standards. What’s the point in that?

@wavechange
Plywood sold as 2500 mm x 1220 mm is a bit strange. The width of 1220 mm is the equivalent of 4 foot which is the standard for the old Imperial 16 inch wall stud centre to centre spacing. ( 3x16inch=48inch or 4 feet). The old Imperial standard wall height was 8 foot ( 2440 mm ) and if the plywood was 2440 mm x 1220 mm (4 x 8 ) it could be mounted either vertical or horizontal becasue the length when mounted horrizontaly also matchs the 16 inch c/c stud spacing ( 6x 16inch=96inch or 8 feet) So if you are going to use it as wallboard it will need to be cut to 2440 mm (8 feet) for wall height or to match stud spacing.

Thanks. I appreciate the reason why we are still using old sizes for plywood, though I have never been involved in building work. This is intended for use as flooring that will be non-slip, even when wet. It’s called HeksaPly and is classed as a phenolic plywood. I was amused by the strange size.

While most panels are 2440/3050×1220, their are some Euro panels that seem equally curious: 2550×1250 and 3050 (= 10ft!) x 1250.

It was not me that made the comment you have quoted, Peter, and I have not used the rude words you have referred to.

I’m patriotic too, and hate to see the country being held back because some don’t want to move on and complete metrication. We are both entitled to our views and I agree that there is no need for any slanging match. I am sorry if I have offended you with my invitation, but maybe Stimpy will be interested.

@PeterH

Your point is spot on.

I notice that there is no bullying or insults or name calling going on here – and there is a subtle tone of humour now and again. That is great.

I have been on similar forums where (and I’m afraid to say) some pro-mets are completely hostile.

I’m not going to name names as that gets us no-where but here is 2 honest different people’s thoughts (ie 2 people)

1… That imperial (and USC) versus metric will soon become civil war and the invasion of Iraq was to put a stop to an idea that Saddam was going to price up oil in Euros and use litres as a measure. The US and UK could not allow this to happen so they invaded. Apparently we are very close to this spilling on to our streets and there WILL be a physical measurement war (physical being fisticuffs !)

2.. An individual who would not accept that milk in cartons were pints and multiple pints thereof. If you were in the know then you’d know that for legal considerations the volume is measured in metric figures too and shown to a ridiculous accuracy. He would argue (with highly offensive personal insults) that they were selling XXXX litres and that’s it. It was the worse case of pedantry I have ever seen! LOL

@wavechange

I’m very happy with the tone of this topic!

It takes a lot to annoy me.

While Wales are the best rugby side in the world I shall remain happy.

Who said ‘all blacks’? C’mon!

@stimpy

I’m glad that you are happy.
a bit off topic but..

Its nice to see that the Wales rugby team is the best in the world.

But a question for you

Where was the current Wales rugby team coach born?

a clue ..It wasnt in NZ.

Peter Hargreaves,
The reason that a large proportion of the population prefer to use imperial measurements for certain applications is because they are still not familiar with the alternative. Despite many years of metric education in schools the road signs outside the schools remain in imperial units. There’s little point in knowing a car’s fuel consumption in litres/100km or speeds in km/h when it’s illegal to show kilometres on sign posts.I would guess that there are many people in the UK that don’t even know that there are 1000 metres in a kilometre. The popular newspapers and commercial TV and radio rarely quote metric measurements and when they do it’s usually followed up with a conspiratorial …….” and that’s X (miles)(feet)(inches) in real money.” There is no incentive for anyone to change and the subliminal message from the establishment is to keep on resisting change. Of course people will go with the familiar rather than the unknown.
True patriots want what is best for their country. Being subservient to the past by clinging on to an outmoded form of measurement is not being patriotic. Refusing to change is not a virtue. It’s a weakness. A national SYSTEM of measurement (that also happens to be international) makes far more sense than a random collection of ancient measurements which is why the vast majority of countries in the world abandoned their own parochial weights and measures years ago. There is no point in clinging on to something purely because it’s old. An old bottle of Coca Cola is not a vintage bottle of Coca Cola, it’s just a soft drink that’s past it’s use-by date.
If some posters on this forum resort to mild profanities it’s probably out of frustration due to having to wait 50 years for the change that was promised but never delivered.

Rugby coach. I have NOT pre-prepared myself for my answer. I thought he was Welsh but I cannot even remember his name. I love it when Neil Jenkins comes on whenever there’s a penalty to be kicked.

Realistically – we have to win against the all blacks IN NZ. I’d have a heart attack if I watched that game if it ever happened.

You forgot to mention – when France joined the 4 nations (aka home nations) the game switched to metric. Aren’t we pleasant (ahem). The commentators are still imperial – check the ‘per player’ stats.

@cliff

“If some posters on this forum resort to mild profanities it’s probably out of frustration due to having to wait 50 years for the change that was promised but never delivered.”

It works both ways – those who are pro-imp feel they are under attack and some might use fighting talk. I’m a pro-imp (not referring to the mini-challenger!) but I try to ‘keep it real’.

I think.