Would you be peeved if you paid more because of your gender?

Vikki , it may surprise you but women have as much hair as men ,on average, but the hairs are a lot finer and harder to see . This again has sub-divisions depending on racial characteristics/DNA , blond/redhaired women have even finer hair while darker , Mediterranean types have darker more prominent hair . I have seen men with little body hair and women with a lot but thats life, its natural , many women in the continent and Russia , for example never shaved under their arms , while this might upset UK/US citizens it doesnt in those countries where this is natural . This is actually one point I agree with feminists , many of the pioneers refused to shave under their arms or wear bras , the only problem with no bras , breasts are not muscles and as women get older they head south . Its actually down to advertising and profit , just look at the money women spend on cosmetics/perfume etc ,its more than men spend on cars . Add to that when a woman has the change of life female hormones diminish so more hair appears and increases into old age . Again this is natural and men should accept this if they love their wife/partner/or whatever else they call their opposite number . I dont have a problem with it ,I have seen more naked bodies while working in a hospital than some people have hot dinners , some living and some dead. All this glamour is either to attract a mate or for self confidence in themselves , men are not really different doing body building or dressing “Italian sharp ” silk suites , Gucci shoes/watch /you name it . Its a game encouraged by BB for massive profit . I could do without women wearing loads of make up as I judge a female on personality , intelligence etc I learned early in life beauty can be only skin deep.

Vikki – I don’t see why women should not have any colour or shape of razor they like but they should not be penalised financially for their choice unless there is a genuine extra production cost involved and this is clearly demonstrated. Otherwise the marketing of razors is a covert form of sexual discrimination.

Duncan – Have you not noticed the amount of money and time that many men are now spending on their appearance and grooming – frequently exceeding that of their spouse or partner [for which they presumably earn little respect!]? It is now a massive market and the beauty halls of the bigger stores are as likely to have as many men as women on the high stools having their facial features administered to. As you would expect, I regard it as a natural consequence of the recent recession and the current austerity that makes all our lives so difficult.

John , no offense but I am “old school”” -are you honestly saying men are acting like women ? —UG !!!!! . As you probably guessed I an totally anti-PC . I am totally against brainwashing men and women into thinking they are the opposite sex but because minority groups run the media thats whats being pushed , so the less than 10 % run the 90 % . i go as far as aftershave , because it kills germs as I use the old fashioned method of shaving–the original Gillette razor , underarm deodorant and I shower –thats it. My hair is cut near down to the bone a bit “skin-headish ” but I have had a beard since the mid-60,s , even got a photo of me and other staff in a Ford factory subsidiary in Garret Lane . I dont know any young man ,even in the area I now live who has “facials ” /nails done etc and especially in the tough city I grew up in . I know the word masculine is being banned in Britain but tell me why feminine isnt being banned as well ? –sexist ? . I dont mind what minority groups do , but I resent their values being imposed on the majority. My wife would be the first to comment ,if I acted in a “feminine ” manner , no wonder so many men have trouble and need psychiatric help when acting like a normal male. Just ask the armed forces , they are increasingly heading northwards to get recruits , while the visits to English Schools average 8 %/year the ones in the north ,particularly Scotland is over 11 % visits ,and take into account/head of population .

I didn’t know the word “masculine” was under threat.

I haven’t studied the underlying psychology of the changes that are taking place in male and female presentation but I do believe that, in the case of the modern male, there remains a desire to be seen as virile, hence the cultivated and stylised beards [like lions’ manes] and other forms of bodily adornment for which pain and fortitude are essential requisites. The slaps and gels that men are applying to their face and hair are in imitation of the males in certain species of baboon and, over time, their natural physiognomy will no doubt mutate and evolve to match. I am reliably informed that this behaviour is in the interests of attracting the female of the species and, moreover, that she does indeed approve.

Thats so well put John I am not even going to argue with it. It is a flow of English that I cant help but admire .

Thankfully, Beryl, it’s only the totally unreconstructed males who adhere to traditional attitudes to masculinity and deny their feminine sides who might face total extinction – not the entire male population. That does at least allow for the continued production and evolution of both sexes into the future. Of course, one would hope that the female influence on male development would become more sophisticated eventually but it does have a struggle on its hands at the moment so patience is required.

Females have great influence – look at the number of world leaders including UK , Scotland!, Germany, USA potentially, – but their authority is often dispensed in more subtle ways than men seem capable of. In how many marriages (real ones – a man and a woman) does the man do what the “weaker” sex decides? Most spend time bringing home the bacon while their joint life is organised by – ?

And they live longer. And they have there own programme on Radio 4 (Woman’s hour). Is there a “Man’s Hour”?

As for female vs. male products – buy the cheaper razors, (why do they have to have pink?), shaving cream, anti-perspirant. “I don’t want to pay for stereotyping.” – then why allow yourself to submit to stereotyping. Women have more logical brains than men – they should be able to deal with this without legislation.

I thought it was fatness and obesity that was rapidly increasing? Is food abuse (excessive or inadequate) a symptom of our response to irresponsible advertising? Perhaps we should have an anti-ad agency, like the old brief Public Information films, that helps educate us in the ways of the world that we should really heed.

I have never hit my wife, nor her me, so I don’t recognise your generalisation (or is it a genderelisation). I will agree about haircuts though – mine costs £9 and takes 10 – 15 minutes. mrs r had hers done today; cost £70 and took 90 minutes. If we both went to my barbers (operated, incidentally, by young ladies) and had the same quick trim without lotions, dyes, drying, and all the other stuff I’d expect her to pay the same. But I’m not sure either of us would like the result.

Malcolm , I have been attacked with a butchers knife , slapped, hit over the head with a broom handle- had pokers, pots.pans, flower pots etc thrown at me , I never reciprocated just dodged out of the road of the flying implements , luckily I have a thick skull , when attacked with a knife I managed to grab her arms and stop myself being stabbed . That didnt mean I hated her only that she had “problems ” . I see people in a real light and that includes women , maybe I attract the violent types but I do have a strong personality and great determination and that upsets some people. What I am trying to say is that the image of the “weak ” female is not something I know about all the women I knew /or know had strong personalities , I actually admire that as they could be a friend as well as a lover. My haircut costs £6 (oap rates ) -eyebrows trimmed , ear hair trimmed , head massage (wonderful ! ) and a good job done (Tuesday,s only )

Mrs W spends all afternoon at the hairdressers, has the full works, and comes back looking fabulous, hair glowing, beautifully styled, and smelling gorgeous. The next day she washes it all out, does it herself, and looks even lovelier. For her £75 she has been pampered and calmed in a relaxing environment soothed by gentle music and a continuous supply of coffee.

I go to an elderly Italian barber who I have been using for years and he takes about twenty minutes to cut off the thatch and rearrange the ageing fibres. He does the little trimmings that Duncan mentions and entertains me with his wit and wisdom. His parlour is not so posh, the TV in the corner seems to only have Homes under the Hammer or Channel 4 Racing depending on the time of day, and downstairs there is a body art saloon from which various curious specimens of human pulchritude emerge as from a gothic vault while I await my turn. He no longer enquires about “something for the weekend” since those are now available in any Tesco’s or pub toilet. All that for just £11 plus tip including a free read of a red-top tabloid if I need to catch up with what has been happening in the jungle or the big brother house. And it’s all a lot better since smoking was banned. What more could I ask for?

Sounds wonderful John !

Gender violence: terrible thing. Being kicked, head-butted, Karate-chopped, stabbed, shot and tortured convinced me never to play another game of chess with Emily Knutbuster. Most dangerous seven year old I’ve ever known.

She sounds even worse than Just William’s nemesis, the legendary Violet Elizabeth Bott.

A need to help them Beryl ,the same as I need to help the world.

There’s a fine line between helping someone and encouraging them to emotionally depend upon you Duncan, which is always counter-productive for everyone involved. It’s sometimes best left to the professionals where mental health issues are concerned who are able to apply the appropriate treatment without the emotional involvement.

It’s a bit unrealistic to think you can help the world single handedly. There are many altruistic and specialist organisations who dedicate their lives helping to overcome society’s problems which you can join. Which? for example can go some way to alleviate some of the everyday consumer issues that arise, but at the same time they do emphasise the importance of consumer input to assist them in their efforts,,which highlights the significance of all of the other contributions made by people who, like yourself, want to “help the world”.

You have more faith in the “professionals” than I have Beryl. While you are quoting theory , I am quoting real-life fact that a female got “professional help ” —- and then committed suicide — with the help of the very strong drugs she was on, and alcohol. I said long ago I speak from life itself I know of many others like her . The latest WHO statement puts India as the most depressed country and suicidal –China second and—-thats right the USA third , the same country the whole of the West emulates-looks up to -worships and tries to copy . I was also wrong in a post I said a third of US citizens are on drugs to help them mentally it is 60 % , doesnt that tell even the most “non-regarding ” person that something is not right in our society ? Its all very well posters ,posting- stand on your own feet- be self reliant – start a business-don’t rely on the State etc , many people born into this world dont possess that determination/ drive etc , should they be discarded and left to die just because of a political theory applied to a nation ? No Beryl if I have to fight alone so be it , when you become part of an organisation you must obey their rules so far obeying their rules hasnt stopped the death and misery in this world for the majority of the population while the 1 % has expanded to 2 % of the extreme wealthy over the backs of human suffering . Being altruistic and giving money might help people feel better within themselves but in reality life only gets worse for those at the bottom end of the feeding chain and those killed by never-ending war.

If only finding appropriate and effective mental health help were so straightforward, Beryl. And you need the person you regard as needing help to cooperate – unless you have them sectioned (as far as I know) you cannot impose mantal health treatment upon them.

Perhaps Which? could investigate the sources of different types of mental health professionals, support, look at how to find those who are properly trained, qualified and accredited and see what the NHS can provide (and when – probably too late) and what you have to fund privately.

It seems that, according to PEYE, providing “psychologists” don’t use one of nine “protected titles” (such as educational, forensic, clinical) anyone can offer their services without being registered or regulated.

You do have some very odd beliefs, Duncan. I don’t know of a single person who “emulates-looks up to -worships and tries to copy” the US. Much the reverse, in fact. And as the father of a Psychologist I would suggest that “ (your) female (who) got “professional help ” —- and then committed suicide — with the help of the very strong drugs she was on, and alcohol” was hardly the responsibility of the professional treating her, if indeed one was, since taking alcohol is not generally a recommended course of treatment in the NHS.

But all that digression apart, the medical fraternity is fairly evenly split on the question of whether mental illnesses are actually on the rise or merely being diagnosed more accurately or frequently. The Psychiatric profession has long enjoyed a tendency to define into existence a condition through the categorisation of symptoms. But there’s little doubt that the West generally is moving towards a matriarchal society. It’s been happening for a long time and it’s of particular concern to Educationalists.

Gender stereotyping is an interesting concept. It still happens a little too much for my liking, in the media, anyway, but I’m unsure if there’s a proven connection between that and costs, as suggested by Erin. On the clothes front it’s fairly clear that women select their clothes on the basis of what will appeal to others, and not because they, themselves inherently like an item. I would suspect that’s because women are more mutually supportive than men but are also in need of external validation somewhat more often. Many women do have an external locus of identity which is more pronounced than the man’s. It seems to be that characteristic upon which supermarket marketing gurus seize and seek to exploit which they do by producing a far wider range of female clothing.

“thats right the USA third , the same country the whole of the West emulates-looks up to -worships and tries to copy”. Really – I doubt that very much.

“Stand on your own feet” is not helped when there are easy taxpayer-funded alternatives for the lazy. I’d argue that most of us get through life by our own determination to knuckle down to learn at school, college, do a job properly (whether employed or self employed). Yest, there will be people who genuinely cannot cope, and we should help them. The danger is if help goes to people who are not so deserving the whole system becomes top-heavy, swamped, underfunded and the real vulnerable people suffer. No one owes us a living. We owe the vulnerable care and assistance. Sorting out the genuine recipients is the problem we face.

Malcolm physical violence, the kind reported by Duncan is grounds for sectioning under the 1983 Mental Health Act irrespective of gender.

Duncan, every case is individual and different and open to questioning, which means blaming another country or their methodology is not recommended when treating mental illness. Moreover, it is pretty common knowledge the dangers of mixing alcohol with drugs. Many alcoholics suffer from an underlying mental illness and resort to alcohol as a means of medicating themselves but sadly end up with addiction as well as mental illness. Also to take drugs with alcohol is a recipe for disaster.

It has been the subject of recent debate that continuous and prolonged psychological abuse can be even worse than physical abuse, the effects of which, not being immediately obvious or visible are harder to detect and therefore treat.

We have veered off topic once again so will leave it there, except to say it is possible to prevent someone’s else’s recovery by accepting abuse from them, in which case anyone who believes they should put up with this type of maltreatment ought to be questioning the reason why they do.

Beryl, I am intrigued about how you manage to cut and style your hair at the back. Do you use a selfie-stick and take pictures as you go so you can see how it’s going?

Dont you understand Ian ? After a year,s treatment externally and another year as an in-patient their “treatment” failed . If extremely strong drugs are used and they dont work it comes down to shock treatment which leaves many with memory loss and a “dumbed down ” personality , even walking round in a daze still didnt remove the deep depression within ,even if it was not to the forefront . Suicide isnt reducing , even government figures for young men show a rise in male suicide ,although they are adverse to publishing them. Because of cutbacks group sessions as an outpatient have gone , I know that actually helped people as I watched them because of interaction on real life issues between the participants. Your right we are now becoming a matriarchal society ,the problem with that is that women are more likely to accept the status quo in society due to a stable environment to bring up children, yes i know you have many rebellious ones like the female equivalent of me but they dont amount to more than 20 % of the female population . Men are generally for fighting (physically ) a cause , women debate it and when the debates over ?? . On the matter of clothes not 2 hours ago a neighbour of mine (female ) even older than me got out her hybrid car and as I passed in my car I waved to her , she was dressed in the “spitting image ” of an American 60,s folk/protest singer , of whom I could name several. American-New York skip cap , 60,s style unisex clothing , thin , vegetarian , and a strong personality to boot ! When I parked I spoke to her and she told me the cap was her American lodger,s who has since departed . in no was was she typical of the normal female dress sense. I liked that as she would not look out of place on a police barrier in the UK/US protesting against something. She couldnt care less about what others thought of the way she dressed ,no make up , she is a “doer ” and initiator , and yes , thats the type of people maybe I am attracted to not because I am weaker but because I recognise somebody like myself.

Just for the record, suicide rates are not concealed; there are various sources, including the Samaritans. As it happens, male suicide rates decreased in the UK by 5.6% between 2013 and 2014 while female rates increased by 8.3% over the same period. It is impossible to say whether this is a long-term trend although the overall rates of suicide have been falling over time for both sexes. The suicide rates per sex for people aged 3-29 are proportionate to the rates for other age groups with roughly three times more male than female suicides.

I will quote UK “approved ” websites John – bbc.com/news/education-36378573-quote- student suicides have risen to their highest level since 2007 -ONS figures . the guardian.com/society/2015/feb/19/number-of-suicides-uk-increases-2013-m– number of suicides in UK increases , with male rate highest since 2001 (ONS ) female rates relatively constant -male increased steadily since 1981 . Many of similar nature if required ?

While it’s true student suicides have increased, overall suicides have decreased. In particular Atkins group universities are seeing more self-harm among students whose academic issues might be causing them concern. It’s a very tricky field to fathom, simply because different places use different techniques and recording methods but the overall consensus seems to be that overall suicide rates are falling, although female postgrads appear to be overrepresented and present a significant statistical anomaly. However, and purely from my own thoughts, I wonder if the recent small increase might be allied to the increase in student tuition fees and the concurrent course difficulties. Combined, these might seem overwhelming to a young person.

Ian did you ,access the Guardian URL that doesnt particularly specify students but overall trends which conflicts with the statement -“suicides are down ” ?

Well I did rather hope I wouldn’t be asked that question John as it’s complicated, but here goes……….

I have a dressing table with 3 mirrors (one central and 2 side ones) which allow me to view the left and right sections at the back. I first divide all my hair into sections and secure each section with either clips or hair bands.
I use a portable dressing table hand mirror to view the centre back which I cut blind to match the already cut sides at the back using small sections of hair held between the first and second fingers, (as you have probably witnessed your barber doing). I then cut the side sections near the ears making sure each side matches up, and lastly the fringe. I then move to a larger mirror in the bathroom situated directly under a downlighter and check for any bits that need levelling using the portable hand mirror in one hand and scissors in the other. It sounds complicated but as with all new ventures, practice makes perfect. It’s very important to use hairdressers scissors and not the ones from the cutlery draw in the kitchen!

I must add that it is not too easy to wear shoulder protection whilst carrying out all the necessary manoeuvres so I usually end up removing all clothing during the cutting stages and then straight into a nice hot shower to wash away any remains of hair left on my skin and hey presto! job done 🙂

PS. I did warn you the description would be much more complicated than the action!

Thank you, Beryl. I was going to ask whether you were lucky enough to have one of those three-section mirrors that are rarely seen these days. My late M-i-L had one on a beautiful curvaceous and Walnut-veneered dressing-table. By angling the wing mirrors one could almost see all round. By using cross-reflection and turning the head, as an owl does, a virtual circumnavigation of the dome was possible; just the nape escaped.

Duncan – I am not disputing the rise in student suicides but they are a segment within a category where the overall trend is downwards. The interpretation of statistics and causes is problematic, as Ian has said, but we need to bear in mind that the number of students has increased markedly over the last decade and I would hazard that there are people within the student population who are not suited to the pressures [or the liberties] of further and higher education.

Yes John, I can recall as a child peering into the wing mirrors of my mothers dressing table and the fascination of watching myself in multiplicity becoming increasingly smaller and further and further away finally disappearing into infinity………….

Sorry, Duncan: yes, I did, and the problem presented is that the ONS groups suicides according to several criteria which make definitive statements about rates difficult without hedging what you’re saying with numerous conditions. There has been a rise – interestingly – in older male suicides but without knowing the criteria used to define a suicide (they do change) what I said, gleaned from several different sources seems to be correct.

If you mean the less than 10 % of the population malcolm then I think they would be very happy having double the choice than the rest of us. The TV adverts are certainly pandering to them. There is a show being advertised for transvestites as we speak. Also that TV advert where “men ” act/dress like women , with 1000,s of complaints , all its achieved is to make them worse.

I think we all have the same amount of choice with our grooming products whoever or whatever we are, Duncan.

It’s about time there was a bit more cross-representation of alternative styles and characters in the modern media without mockery, especially on TV. Shakespeare’s Viola from Twelfth Night [or What You Will] , and lots of other roles from classical drama and pantomime, paved the way, largely through the comic arts, for exploring the excitement of travesty. Now, as society becomes culturally more mature, transgender issues can be treated seriously and enter the mainstream. I welcome the acceptance of difference and inclusion as it might relieve many people of mental torment, anxiety and subordination. If – through the latest clinical procedures – it leads to the success of gender reassignment so much the better. I appreciate this might not be everyone’s cup of tea but it will not do you any harm.

What I don’t get is your last sentence: who are being made “worse”, and in what way?

John , even after 1000,s of complaints about an advert , which ridicules men , dresses them in extenuating backsides etc , makes them walk like women , instead of the company taking heed they just made the adverts worse. If some are willing to accept perversion then why the outcry at pornography or for that matter prostitution ? . Many prostitutes have told me they are very happy doing their job , dont feel degraded , cant stand the PC brigade , have bought flats in cities, nice cars , shop in top shops etc and have no intention of giving up that lifestyle -quote – if men are stupid enough to spend lots of money on sex then they are mugs ! While I dont watch pornography women get paid large sums also and nobody holds their hands up their back forcing them . But what I resent are the life styles of a minority being FORCED on the 90 % majority by blatant advertising not only that young children being made to accept it , that to me is serious exploitation of a child’s mind . let them make up their own minds , but no , they have to be brainwashed from toddlers onwards .

Now we really are off topic and in an area I personally feel is unsuited to a Which? Convo. I raised the question of why only male/female in a genuine way. I’m sorry that it deflected the Convo in this way. 🙁

As Michael Winner might have said about an insurance advert: “Calm down, Duncan – it’s just a commercial”. It’s just a bit of [badly made] fun. No actor was forced against their will to wear high heels and posture provocatively. Does it send up men? Or women? Does it matter? Not a lot.

There’s a lot you need to know about enforced female sexual exploitation before you generalise about prostitution and pornography but this is not the place to go into that.

With specific reference to the MoneySuperMarket commercials, personally I think you have misread the messages that are coming from the adverts you dislike and are attributing more to them than they can possibly sustain. By all accounts, despite some complaints, the latest ‘dance-off’ advert is a very big hit with the viewers. If there was any risk to young children from possibly seeing those adverts [which are not shown on daytime TV] they would not have been passed for broadcasting.

I caught the tail-end [literally] of Mrs Brown’s Boys before watching the News this evening. I suppose that’s off your watch list as well. Judging by the roars of applause it must have been awful.

Maybe your right John and I am seeing to much in it but it still looks insidious to me I wont say anymore about it . I know about enforced sexual exploitation but if you are getting into that , in England you are also bringing up race relations and the “goings on , northwards , well documented in the national press . I can assure you the city females I spoke to didnt look “oppressed ” quite the opposite and they were very outspoken , even a brothel in an outer city area the females were very forward and outspoken , no sign of “oppression ” there . In case anybody gets the wrong impression the business in all those places including “massage parlors ” was to fix their phones not fix any “urges ” I had .

When will we ever shed the use of marketing techniques to exploit the suggestibility of key market segments that have been conditioned, through stereotyping, over many years to desire toiletry products and appliances that will enable them to first conform to the prevailing type and then to follow it religiously wherever, and however unsuitably, it leads? All branches of the media, advertising, product design, merchandising, and pricing conspire to bring this about – almost as though there were some over-arching force at work. I suppose there is – it’s applied psychology.