Would you abandon a brand over a bad experience?

I think the number of reputable UK brands that have been sold out to foreign companies with manufacture off-shored and quality impaired would astonish you, Alfa. Some time ago I realised that this had happened with Pringle knitwear. It had been sold to the Fang’s of Hong Kong. It’s worth taking a look on Wikipedia at “Pringle of Scotland” to see how it has changed, both for the better and the worse, over the years as it struggled to make money while remaining a luxury goods manufacturer. Needless to say, nothing is made in Scotland anymore – just a bit of finishing work so they can still sew on a ‘Made in Scotland’ label.

From the companies’ point of view it does not matter if Pringle’s knitwear is imported or they are able to sell goods under reincarnated brand names that disappeared decades ago. I do not see any easy way that the consumer can easily keep track of what is happening. In addition to the usual ways of finding out about products and customer service I suggest speaking to neighbours, friends and family for up to date information rather than relying on pleasant or unpleasant experience in the past.

This is a list of companies I found posted on the internet a few months ago and these are only associated with the EU so there are plenty more:

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers’ pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army’s new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to Far East with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with EU grants.
Gillette gone to Eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs.
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU ‘regeneration’ grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it’s Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU.
The Mini cars that David Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare,
Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK.
The bicycle for the Greens was made in the Far East, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Roll on Brexit, alfa. Presumably the grants were partly funded from the £350M a week we give the EU? Good of us to pay people to take their businesses out of the UK. But then some criticise the UK government when we give incentives to companies to invest in the UK (Nissan et al). Just what do we really want?

We rely on the reputation of brand names from past experience. I agree with all the others who ask that the current overall brand owner should be shown prominently alongside the brand name. So if we don’t like a company we can choose not to buy its brands. Suppose Which? or Private Eye got taken over by Rupert Murdoch (I hope they haven’t been!)? Would you still trust what they said if you found out? You might then stop buying them.

Retailers must be careful – John Lewis, i seem to remember. sold some pretty poor domestic appliances under their own label. It damaged my perception of JLP as a quality retailer (even if not necessarily best value for money).

Thanks, Alfa. Just the thin end of the iceberg unfortunately. One or two entries on the list need updating but it is a roll-call of tragedy for UK industry, aided and abetted by the EU in many cases. I am now of the view that I can’t wait to leave. What have our MEP’s and ministers been doing all this time? – that has never been put under the microscope.

The list posted by Alfa has been doing the rounds for months and some of this is dated or misleading. Plenty of well known companies do their manufacturing in China and elsewhere without UK or EU support.

Indeed companies do manufacture in india, China, Philipines, Taiwan, Brazil. Such is the nature of a global economy . BMW, Honda, Nissan, for example manufacture here. Where I see a problem is when the EU conglomerate redistributes work at our – the UK’s – expense. It might help ailing or developing economies, but I want to see the UK economy prosper. I want us to stand on our own feet, not for example have to place tender invitations throughout the EU and accept the lowest offer to comply with EU regulations; I want as much UK work done by UK companies as possible.

These comments are also in the wrong place 🙁 .Perhaps Which could copy and paste them into The Lobby, or the Brexit Convo?

What’s more annoying is the fact that the EU grants contain a large proportion of UK tax payers money.

Mugs hold more…

“My family would drink champagne out of the teacups if that was all that was available….” mine too 🙂

I had a lucky escape during a stay in North Wales a few years ago. Somehow, the washer-up (me!) managed to break one of the champagne flutes, but luckily we found two near identical ones in a charity shop in Caernarfon, so we bought them as replacements.

Personally I find Champagne overrated (although I have not indulged in very expensive versions). I do like fizzy wine – refreshing – and think there are just as enjoyable drinks in some English and Loire sparklers. Having said this, years ago I was given a Harrods’ hamper that included 2 half bottles of their own label champers – a lovely biscuity flavour that we thoroughly enjoyed. Unfortunately we are out of their delivery area – and price band.

Some Aldi champagne we had at Christmas was very enjoyable and after New Year’s Day, when Sainsbury’s were clearing their stocks, I took the opportunity to buy some of their Which?-recommended champagne at reduced prices for a family celebration and it too was excellent.

That’s right. I’m sure I heard something about us being On the Road to Mondelez.

Barbara , to allow Which and myself to reply it behooves you that you post the name of the company so that this can be checked into , I don’t see Which barring you from this as it is in their interests that the truth be told from whatever direction or angle. Just proportioning the blame without recourse is not the done thing. .

It was John Lewis Home Insurance.

John Lewis outsource their insurance services to one of the major insurers who have a ‘desk’ for John Lewis casework. The John Lewis website says “We have carefully selected Royal & Sun Alliance Insurance plc to underwrite John Lewis Home Insurance”. I believe RSA do more than just underwrite the insurance but actually administer it under the John Lewis name. The insurer has a contractual specification for the insurance terms and conditions, premiums, and cover, and all the literature is produced in the John Lewis house-style. John Lewis also sets the standard for customer service so it would be interested to learn of your unsatisfactory experience. John Lewis Home Insurance is a Which? recommended provider [January 2017].

I think it is sensible to walk away from a company that lets you down or provides bad service, but in the interests of improving the experience for other consumers it would be good if you could find time to write to John Lewis at their head office and tell them about your recent experience. One of the particular features of insurance cover is that we need 100% reliability when things go wrong – flood, fire, burglary, accidental damage, etc – so how a company deals with customers [or potential customers in your case] has to be considered as an indicator whether or not it is representative of their general level of service.

If you are looking for the kind of customer service you were expecting from John Lewis Insurance there are several alternatives and NFU Mutual has usually scored well in comparison tests. I have also found Barclays Bank, Saga and Nationwide Building Society to be very satisfactory for home insurance with the right cover at a more reasonable premium.

I have informed JL via their Facebook page and asked them to pass on my comments. I just felt that I’d wasted so much time in finding the information needed and completing the form, and so frustrated, that I couldn’t be bothered to write. Perhaps you are right, then, and I should write. Would have to be email, though, as on crutches with recovering broken hip so getting out to post not an option.

E-mail is fine, Barbara, and I feel that a personal and directed message will carry more weight; you are much more likely to get a considered reply, or at least an acknowledgment. Broadcasting your discontent via Facebook as you have done might also be a salutary lesson for John Lewis. Companies are under pressure to expose themselves via social media but are not necessarily grateful for what they receive, and whether they always take such complaints seriously is open to question.

[Your comment has been removed for being off-topic, which breaches our Community Guidelines. https://conversation.which.co.uk/commenting-guidelines/. Thanks, mods.]

Buying and selling on Facebook seems to be done in groups , if they cant sell it on Ebay they try FB and there are 1000,s of groups in the UK but they are run on a volunteer basis so there is LITTLE comeback if you have problems , sorry Maria -FB take no responsibility for them.

Unless someone makes a false description of a product, you have very little comeback if you buy from an individual, whether in the street or on Facebook: http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/l/second-hand-goods

James have a read of complaints of latex mattresses in the USA : http://boulter.com/blog/2008/08/20/the-matress-indusry-is-one-big-scam/comment-page-3/ buy an old fashioned heavy spring mattress thats what I have .

Hi Duncan,

thanks for the info. I already bought a replacement mattress. The M&S mattress was not fully latex it is a pocket sprung mattress with a layer of cotteon, then, a ‘pillowtop’ which they termed a latex ‘pillowtop’, when infact it is mostly just white fluff. 2 thirds white fluff which they ambiguously called ‘white luxury fibres’.

It could be genuine Kapok, James, but the word has derogatory connotations so they apply the euphemism ‘white luxury fibres’. The colour is immaterial out of sight inside a mattress.

Hi John, I’m pretty certain it’s not Kapok. I’ve seen Kapok. The stuff in the mattress ‘pillowtop’ is synthetic.

M&S don’t provide accurate information on what is inside their mattresses or how much of anything is inside. Which is obviously very important to know. I was foolish enough to make assumptions. I though based on the price and reputation that the pillowtop was entirely full of latex, as the name of the mattress suggests. But it isn’t and as a res of the poor quality full used to bulk out the padding the mattress has sunk alot and it not usable.

Even a charity wouldn’t take it!

I am not really surprised the filling isn’t Kapok, James. It is probably a spun synthetic material that does not have the properties of a natural fibre. The original [non-discounted] price suggests a good quality mattress.

Good retailers of beds have illustrations or cut-away samples of the contents of their mattresses so you can see the composition and construction, and experts available to answer customers’ questions. This has been my experience with John Lewis and other good department stores and also with some specialist bed shops. I think you have been poorly let down by M&S who, as you say, trade on a high reputation; however, the more they stretch their product range the more difficult it is to maintain consistently high quality standards of retailing.

Presumably you had to get rid of your mattress at your own expense adding insult to discomfort.

Hi John,

yeah I think you’re right, M&S are stretching their expertise by selling mattresses.

They did have a cutaway of the materials on their website, but it was very poorly done as it didn’t include the pillowtop bit in the cutaway, so I didn’t know that there was hardly any latex inside. (I mainly wanted the mattress as I thought latex was a quality material). Also unlike John Lewis they don’t list how thick each bit of material is. There is a lack on information on exactly what you are buying. I was an idiot. I was too keen on gettin g a latex topped mattress! Should have bought a different on and got a latex topper.

And yes! Of course I had to dispose of the bugger myself.

My new Tempur mattress has a 15 year guarantee under which dips over 2cm can be claimed on, whereas M&S give no guarantee and think that 4cm after 2 years if fine!!

Distance sellers usually have twenty-eight days in which to deliver and they have failed. It would be quicker and cheaper to speak to your card issuer who should cancel the payment if the cost was over £100 [S.75 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974]. They might be willing to do so anyway but would not be legally obliged to if the cost was under £100 . Or you could instruct the seller [in writing] to cancel the sale for breach of contract and demand repayment. If that did not work then you would probably have to go through the court claim process in order to get your money back. That will incur trouble and expense but you can ask for costs if you are successful.

Customers have redress against the newspaper if an advertiser defaults but that does not apply in the case of catalogue inserts; another weakening of consumer protection brought about by changes in retailing practices.

I checked out Easylife Group ltd.-London -Brian and , according to their publicised conditions of sale the following would apply to you. -Contract-between Easylife +You -the consumer , will only be deemed to BEGIN once the order has been DISPATCHED–orders by card will only be charged once stock availability has been confirmed -the goods are READY to be dispatched .If for ANY reason the goods cannot be supplied then payment will be refunded in FULL -Refunds up to 14 days -Consumer Rights Act -2015 . It is obvious they have not carried out the initial conditions of contract you have the immediate right of cancellation and a full refund . They have broken the first section of the contract by beginning it while not in a position to do so (not ready to be dispatched ) – they have broken the second part by charging you BEFORE your order has BEEN dispatched – Verdict- Under English Contract Law -they FAILED , there is NO WAY you could lose in Small Claims Court and this is going by their OWN published contract.

The Consumer Rights Act takes precedence over conflicting contract conditions and terms. You have 14 days to cancel the contract or return the goods if bought at distance. The 14 day period starts the day after the consumer, or someone selected by the consumer, receives the goods.

You (the seller)should refund all monies received. This includes the outbound delivery cost, unless the consumer chose to have the goods delivered by more expensive means than the cheapest standard delivery option offered. If so, you do not have to refund the full outbound delivery cost, but only the cost of the standard delivery option which the consumer could have chosen. You must repay the consumer without undue delay, and no later than 14 days starting the day after you receive the goods back. If the consumer provides proof of return before you receive the goods back, you should refund without undue delay and no later than 14 days starting the day after you receive that proof.

Since Brian has still [8 March] not received the order he placed on 29 January 2017 then there is a clear breach of contract and he is entitled to get his money back immediately. Whether or not the product was in stock or whether the fulfilment process has broken down are not relevant. I would hope he will not have to make a court claim. It would be worth checking the position with his credit card issuer first just in case payment has not yet been taken but that would be unlikely in my opinion. Getting the card company to cancel the payment and refund it to his account would be the cleanest way of resolving this – except he still wants a bed vacuum cleaner and I note that Robert Dyas sell the same model as Easylife at the same price but in a different colour. There are also other options .

Shauna Virgin Mobile should supply you with a reconditioned phone as a replacement under the Sale of Goods Act , they are in breach of this termed a “Material Breach ” if they wont repair it or give you a replacement. The phone and the contract are two different things so you have to get out of both , if they admit it you can get out without penalty . BEWARE all customers who take out a phone contract with Virgin Mobile 1000,s of people are in the same boat – your iPhone gives a two year contract -APPLE only give you a one year warranty . So if your phone breaks down after one year but before the two year contract is up your stuck on a contract you cant get out of with a phone that doesn’t work -slick+sly marketing ! You want the full story then click on : http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-2057937/Your-rights-mobile-phone-breaks-contract.htm

The Consumer Rights Act says that a repair should be done in a reasonable time and without unreasonable inconvenience. A fault gives you the option to choose a repair or a replacement; if you choose a repair that fails you can then opt for a replacement. in your case I’d suggest you approach your retailer with this information and either get a replacement or at least a loan watch until yours is returned.

I suggest contacting the manufacturer of the fridge-freezer to see if they will offer any goodwill such as a significant discount on a new appliance. They have no legal requirement to help but you might be lucky.

Your legal rights lie with whoever you purchase goods from, even if they subcontracted work like providing and installing an appliance.

Here is another Conversation where there is discussion of consumers’ rights over faulty products: https://conversation.which.co.uk/shopping/return-faulty-broken-product-free-repair-replacement/

Phil, I had exactly the same problem with a Hotpoint fridge freezer, just 3 years old. I paid them to look at at on a no-fix no-pay basis. They offered me a new f/f at a “discount” but a very unattractive offer. I emailed them that under the Sale of Goods Act there is a requirement that a product should be “durable”, and mine clearly was not, as it should have lasted longer than 3 years. Whether their next response was affected by this or not, they rang to offer a new f/f/, take the old one away and I negotiated a 2 years guarantee.

How common is it? You see if we have evidence that it is a relatively widespread fault then we have some grounds to pursue the SoGA / CRA durability requirement.

I don’t know, Malcolm, but I have heard of a few cases recently. As we have discussed previously, evidence of frequent problems should be taken into account when handling claims under our statutory rights. I’m also interested in what happens when the fault occurs.

Your consumer rights lie against the retailer from whom you bought the charger. Without knowing more about how and when you purchased the charger it is impossible to give more definitive advice but if you follow the links at the foot of the Introduction to this Conversation you might find some useful guidance.

Days of Yore Edward of York ? , lovely place York nice Cathedral still with the Roman ghosts marching through the grounds , quaint shops , and the Shambles . Nice people in Yorkshire , down to earth , like good basic food , friendly .

I doubt you would get anyone to sign it, Edward. What we should have is a “Standard Terms and Conditions” developed independently ( there are standard contracts in the commercial world to avoid having to go through every new one with a fine toothcomb) that all retailers use, with any exceptions highlighted.

Pat-a sales agreement in English Law is a contract if the agreed details on that contract have either been broken or not fulfilled then you have “Right of Action ” against the seller this is in addition to any sales legislation . Breach of Contract in your case looks like a “Material Breach ” -ie- what was agreed to has not been “performed ” , you will have to establish you have lost financially from (being sold an old model ) and that the seller KNOWINGLY was responsible -ie – they understood they were selling you the wrongly advertised product. Its pretty fishy that the chassis is the wrong one . Personally I think you have a winnable case for compensation.

Thanks.

Deliberate misrepresentation is an offence, Fitzmichael, so if, after having a pricing error pointed out, the retailer fails to correct it and maintains the item on offer at a price they will not accept that is a false sale. In my experience some of the big retailers will not honour a wrong price in the customer’s favour; they tend to know the law and argue that an offer to treat is not binding. The major supermarkets will generally accept the lower price displayed on the shelf or product even if the barcode says otherwise.