Are winter tyres worth the money?

re. previous posting

Please read ‘three new winter tyres’ as ‘four new winter tyres’! One of the four winter tyres was fitted on the rim for the spare.

If anyone is in doubt about winter tyres have a drive in a car with them fitted and you will be amazed with the difference, i got new alloy wheels last year and just purchased a set of winter tyres from http://www.performancealloys.com/Winter-Tyres.aspx where i live is a hill to get out onto the main road last winter half of the people were stuck and couldnt get out i had no problems in my daughters car, hence why i bought a set for my car this year….

Hilariously bad bit of “journalism” from “Which Fridge?” as usual.

Your research seemed to involve calling Ford and asking how much they’d charge for 4 tyres. Doing a bit of searching can net you a set of tyres for some cars at less than £250 for a top name brand, obviously for bigger cars they’re going to be more expensive, but quoting 500+ as some sort of across the table figure is really misleading.

If Which really want to do the best for their readers then they’ll admit that they were wrong and do some proper tests. If you want to email me I can put you in touch with an engineer from a company which manufactures some of the best winter tyres available (I don’t want to namedrop) and I’m sure he could put you in touch with their marketing department so you can do some tests in the sorts of conditions people have faced for the last 3 years.

If it snows heavily again this article is going to look rather silly…. again.

Based on past weather records, anytime now my family will be travelling to work in temperatures below, 7 degrees, so according to manufacturer’s claims, winter tyres should have better grip.

Come on Which, give us an objective report.

Very ill informed jounalism! I run vans throughout Europe and have fitted Michelin Agilis 81 Snow and Ice for the past 5 years due to legislation in Switzerland, Germany, Alps etc. They are brilliant and give better road holding in the wet and cold from November through to March. They wear well and I would recommend fitting them on a spare set of rims and changing them over for the winter months. Costco is a good source at reasonable prices but due to this sort of reporting very few manufacturers are willing to supply the UK with the winter tyres so I am having trouble getting any – I will probably have to buy in Germany next week.

Jesophohat’s comments are spot-on. Having spent several winters running on winter tyres, I agree with his remarks. I’m looking forward to winter driving because where I live, close to the Scottish border, many roads are untreated and virtually deserted during snow, Occasionally, on a straight stretch of ‘A’ road, I slow down to 50mph so as to not overly surprise the 20mph driver that I am safely overtaking. I am convinced I am safer at 50mph that the driver doing 20mph on standard tyres. Would you wear shoes with smooth soles in winter conditions? Winter tyres are walking boots for your car.

Very bad piece of journalism in this report. Snowsocks are not a viable solution. Having used them – they are useless for “normal” driving on poor road conditions. They are only useful for getting you out of a jam when you need to get home from the office, etc and the roads are grid locked as you can only drive at very low speed with them on. Otherwise they rip badly. They are also very poor on surfaces other than compacted snow. Surfaces such as frozen slush or choppy ice increases the risk of tearing.
Winter tyres allow “normal” driving and are far superior to snow socks. As everyone knows the tyres are the only part of the car that touches the road – why skimp on such an important area?

I am absolutely astonished to read such an appallingly simplistic and dangerous load of unresearched, unsubstantiated, ill-considered and dangerous nonsense in the pages of a respected publication whose sole raison d’ etre is to provide sound, safe, researched and unbiased information and recommendations. What makes it far worse is the fact that the post of the writer gives this tosh an imprint of respectability.
You require comments from members on this Conversation to “be factually accurate” and this article itself is manifestly not.
There is an almost infinite amount of serious and well-researched information available from many sources, including your own co-operating organisation in Germany, ADAC, which should be a part of the ongoing body of knowledge of a person in the professional capacity of Rob Hull and if he hasn’t read it he is seriously failing in professional responsibility and he should certainly not indulge in such cheap sub-Jeremy Clarkson flippancy.
Car manufacturers and motoring organisations in continental Europe recommend the fitting of winter tyres when temperatures are regularly below about 9°C and this generally the case in much of the UK from end of October to end of March. On the point of wear – you aren’t wearing out your summer tyres when you’ve got the winter ones on and so it’s swings and roundabouts on that argument.
The difference between winter and summer tyres were immediately apparent when we left it a bit late once and changed at a time when temperatures had fallen to about 5 or 6° and the additional bite and grip were very obvious.
I’m sure that the ridiculous scenes of slipping, sliding and blocked roads shown on UK television news in recent winters would not have occurred had people used winter tyres (especially HGVs – the local cops over here would have really hammered the operators of these vehicles who did NOT have winter tyres!)
What I can say, after ten winters in Germany, is that I bought a set of snow chains in October 2001 and I’ve never needed them despite driving tens of thousands of kilometres in heavy snow and ice in the Black Forest and through blizzards with snow on top of ice through the high Tatra passes.
Winter tyres are universally available in most continental countries, ready-fitted to steel wheels and I paid about €300 for a set of 4 good quality winter tyres for my Skoda Octavia. This included storage and re-fitting for my summer tyres.
I feel that Rob Hull needs to seriously consider his position and Which? needs to undertake a series of tests on winter tyres.
Articles like this really do make me wonder what, if anything, I can believe in the magazine.
Sorry, but I feel very strongly about the issue of safety.

I’ve now read the article about snow socks in which your writer seems to use the descriptions “snow tyres” and “winter tyres” interchangeably. They are entirely different products and you show a woeful lack of understanding in an article (unsigned, but maybe bearing the hallmarks of Mr Hull?) and which also makes the same unfounded comments regarding the use of winter tyres.
I seriously wonder how many other Which? reports and comments are so shoddily cobbled together – I hesitate to use the word”research” in this context.

Couldn’t agree more with the above comments by bergisman. Mr Hull calls himself a senior car researcher and delivers such a bad piece of opinionated journalism. Shocking. What an embarrassment to Which? magazine.

Perhaps the most worrying aspect of this Conversation is the pair of fatuous responses that the Which? editorial team have interposed – the first being a self-congratulatory nonsense about this being a debate. It isn’t a debate: it’s a long reiteration by people who know, through personal experience and/or through reading scientific and unbiassed reports that Mr Hull is talking dangerous nonsense. The second Which? comment indicates that either they haven’t read the comments, even superficialy, or that they can’t/won’taccept the almost unanimous opinons of the contributors to the Conversation.
It is also extremely worrying that, twelve months on and with the magic 7°C once more with us, Which? still has not acceded to the expressed and implicit wishes of those contributing to this by actually testing winter tyres and comparing them with summer tyres in autumn/winter/early spring conditions. This failure is almost as irresponsible as the original article.
Is Which? afraid that such a set of tests will result in a whole battery farm’s worth of egg on their collective faces.
COME ON, WHICH? – YOU NEED TO REPAIR THE DAMAGE BY INVESTIGATING THE FACTS!!!!!!!!!!!! And, yes, I did mean to shout. What is Which? going to do?

I have a home in Central Sweden and regularly drive in the winters there. There are no iffs buts or maybe’s. There is absolutely no doubt that snow tyres work effectively, none whatsoever. The cost of fitting snow tyres won’t seem so stupid – even for the odd days or weeks of driving on compacted snow – when you are sitting in your car moving (even slowly) into oncoming traffic with absolutely no control with your heart in your mouth telling the other occupants to brace.
Apart from extremes of cold, without snow tyres, driving on frozen roads doesn’t differ much from some of the weather the UK’s experienced during the last few winters and losing control of the car would be as much a hazard in Sweden as it is in parts of the UK & you could end up pranging your car at ‘best’ or being severely injured or dead at worst. The difference between Central Sweden and the UK being, apart from the last few years, harsh winters and snow have been a rarity for the last twenty years but in Sweden snow tyres have still been mandatory roughly from October through to March.
With the sometimes severe change in winter conditions in the UK it is therefore encumbent on Which to lead the way and produce comparisons on safety and price that will help drivers make an informed decision on which tyres they can choose to keep their loved ones and themselves safe – and mobile so they can get to work and earn a living.

Write to your MP about the British Govt winter resilience report mentioning nothing whatsoever about tyres, yet it has 322 references to salt. http://transportwinterresilience.independent.gov.uk/docs/final-report/

A separate audit considered tyres, but they were missed completely from the main report. As a result of my letter, my MP requested his own research paper on the issues of winter tyres. So he is now informed about the matter. I did find it interesting that an associated spreadsheet assumed four snow days per year (that’s based on the whole country (presumably UK) having significant snow. That may be very well for the warmer south of England and some coastal areas. I live in a town (altitude only 100 metres) within walking distance of the centre of Britain. Were it not for winter tyres we would have been snowed-in, unable to get down our drive for three weeks minimum last winter. Neighbours got a big surprise when one of them warned my wife not to drive down the incline. She explained that she was using winter tyres. He watched as she drove confidently down the snow & ice covered drive at a good speed with no fear of hitting the car port or the garage that are built either side along the 1 in 10 incline. Those neighbours wouldn’t pay for winter tyres, not even for the very nice executive car, so they left them at the bottom of the drive for weeks on end, hauling their very young children and their shopping up and down the hill several times a day.

Responding to Mike657, Scotland did a cost-benefit analysis to assess whether it made sense to fit winter tyres onto the driving axles of artics. If I recollect correctly, their conclusion was that financially, for the road haulage industry, it was marginal. That rather surprised me, but I then realised it took no account whatsoever of the costs incurred by everyone else who suffers the consequences of an immobile artic.
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/road/policy/freight/reports

Responding to James 1000, I agree with his points. I think he is saying that the weather in central Sweden hasn’t been very much different to the UK – interesting. Last year my wife ‘accused’ me of not looking after my safety when I didn’t fit winter tyres on my car as soon as she thought they needed fitting. She was furious that I hadn’t changed them early enough and said I was irresponsible. Yet prior to the previous winter, despite having lived in Scotland for many years, she had never tried them. That’s how much difference they make.

We need drivers who cause accidents by choosing to drive on summer tyres in winter to be prosecuted. In the case of company vehicles, the owner should be prosecuted to ensure they do not pressurise their staff. After all, when I’m over the alcohol limit I don’t even think about driving because it is obvious I’m a danger because I don’t have sufficient control of the vehicle. If I did drive, there would be no excuse for my irresponsibility. What is the difference between driving drunk and driving a car that you know cannot stop or steer properly because it has the wrong tyres?

We have seat belts and airbags that will never be needed on the majority of cars, yet we forget that improving primary safety (eg. suitable tyres), will prevent accidents. Improving secondary safety (eg. seat belts and airbags) is only of benefit in the event of an accident. Those who want to leave summer tyres fitted all year round should be able to do so, but they should stay off the road when conditions become poor. I wonder whether legislating for tyres to be marked with a suitable temperature range would be viable? Anyone driving when below the minimum tyre temperature would risk points on their licence.

I’m a farmer in north Northumberland with over 30 years driving experience on all types of road, and off roading. Both winter and summer tyres have been tried. The difference between them in winter is marginal. What does make a difference is wether a car has rear or front wheel drive or 4 wheel drive. In winter, driving in 4 wheel drive gives the perfect grip (even with summer tyres and uphill). In my humble opinion, front wheel drive is second best.

By the way, traction control is next to useless.

So when considering winter tyres, my advice would be to not bother. Always buy a vehicle with 4 wheel drive. The number of times it will be used may be small, but like insurance, it will give peace of mind.

John,
The new page mentioned by Patrick is worth looking-at.

Either your summer tyres are rather unusual – maybe they are
multi-purpose tread rather than ‘summer’, or your winter tyres are
hopeless. There are lots of comparisons on Youtube that make the
difference extremely clear, but I do not dispute your own experience
if that is what you have concluded.

I agree that 4 wheel drive will be better than FWD – if you fit winter tyres.

Last winter I daren’t venture into the borders in snow and ice,
(Langholm to Kelso area, not very far from you), without winter tyres
fitted. My friends in Kelso were very surprised at the roadholding
capabilities of winter tyres, they had parked-up their car because it
was sliding everywhere.

They make an absolutely huge difference on 2 wheel drive cars,
anything from my wife’s FWD Fiat Punto that is still moving on roads
and conditions where we only see 4WDs, to a friends sporty RWD BMW.

Last winter I challenged a friend who owns a Range Rover Sport fitted
with summer tyres (and of course 4WD and all the traction gadgets) to
a hill climb on ice and snow, pitched against an extremely mundane and
ordinary Punto with winter tyres. He refused!

Winter tyres are a much cheaper alternative to 4WD, but if you can
afford 4WD that’s great. In your case I realise you will need 4WD for
your work.

I do hope that Mr Rob Hull, senior car researcher, did not receive any gratuity for his appalling ill informed article.

October 25th 2012, dash-board thermometer reading 14 degrees C, though weather-forecasters predicting 7 degrees C by the weekend! Place your bets, mild or harsh winter?!!

I found this short video,produced by Auto Express and the RAC in conjunction with Continental Tyres, very helpful in my decision to fit Winter Tyres.

It was actually the second half of the video showing comparative braking distances on a wet road at +5 degrees C which I found most relevant to motoring in my corner of the UK where actual snow days per year are limited. Given that Continental tyres typically feature top 3 in most of the independent tyre tests across Europe, this video illustrates “the best” summer tyre against “the best” winter tyre. The additional 7m stopping distance required by the summer tyre at these temperatures on the wet surface
helps inform the debate from a road safety perspective.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=elP_34ltdWI&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DelP_34ltdWI&gl=GB

Interestingly however, if you look into the “detail” of the results of Winter tyre tests which include a Summer tyre for comparison, on wet braking performance below +7 degrees a top performing Summer Tyre will out perform a lower ranking “winter” tyre in the wet (though, not surprisingly, the summer will not perform well at all on snow). My interpretation of these results is that you could inadvertently compromise your wet braking on the numerous rainy days of winter when trying to split a limited budget across 2 sets of tyres instead of fitting the best set of Summer tyres. Rain is the norm in the UK so we aren’t as alert to the potential dangers as when our world turns white and we are forced to drive more cautiously. New tyre labelling introduced next month (NOVEMBER 2012) will make it easier for consumers to evaluate wet braking performance: ‘A’ rating being the best.

If budget is less of an issue, the Auto Express / Continental video highlights that a good quality winter tyre will enhance cold weather safety over a good quality summer tyre. What price you put on that added safety is a matter of personal choice, however, I think the financial equation can be made reasonably cost neutral if:

1. You plan to keep the car for enough seasons to get the mileage out of both sets of tyres.
2. You have a second set of wheels to avoid the twice yearly cost of tyre change & balance.
(or buy a set and then recover most of their cost by re-selling them when you no longer need them).
3. You have loft/shed space to store the unused set to keep the rubber in good condition and to avoid
storage costs.
4. You are able to change wheels yourself (though a 4 wheel swap rather than 4 tyre swap shouldn’t
be too expensive at a garage).

It’s generally recommended to drop a tyre width size for winter tyres so, for example, 205/55R16s winters replace 225/45R17s summers. These smaller tyres are cheaper to buy than the larger summer tyres they replace. Also, summer tyre rubber hardens and becomes more ‘brittle’ in cold conditions so actually wears more quickly than the “softer” winter rubber. So, you are prolonging the life of the more expensive summer tyres and maintaining their tread depth to dispell summer rain i.e. safer wet summer driving as well as safer wet winter driving! Covering the same mileage on a combination of summer & winter tyres actually costs less in terms of the rubber cost than sticking to larger summer tyres only over the same mileage.

Add to that the fact that water and frost damage causes a significant increase in pot-holes during winter months, to which larger wheels with lower profile tyres are more susceptible to alloy damage which is expensive to refurbish (not to mention rock salt damaging the alloy paint finish). The taller side-wall of the smaller wheeled tyre offers the wheel more protection and also a more comfortable ride when the UK’s roads are in their worst state.

In summary, I believe that balancing tread-wear between quality sets of summer and winter tyres will enhance wet weather driving safety in both summer & winter, as well as giving you enhanced snow/ice mobility/safety should those conditions occur. Total costs over time need not be any/significantly more, though will require a larger initial spend up-front. All costs can be reduced depending on how much effort you want to invest yourself (researching and shopping for best prices, swapping & storing wheels yourself, etc) and how much you delegate to a garage.

8th March 2013, just 2 nights ago they were gritting the roads in my area, but from the forecast I think the majority of the frosts are behind us here on the south coast so have today swapped back to ‘summer tyres’.

I thought I’d reflect on the last 4 months and try to answer my own question (posted on here 25th October), and Rob’s:

October 25th 2012, dash-board thermometer reading 14 degrees C, though weather-forecasters predicting 7 degrees C by the weekend! Place your bets, mild or harsh winter?!!

My observations are made from my personal real-world driving experience here on the South Coast (typically one of the warmest parts of the UK), rather than Met Office stats. During this period (25th Oct – 8th March) the car covered 3,500 miles, representing 50% of its total annual mileage. Since 25th October, the vast majority of my ‘commuter time’ driving has been below 7 degrees C, with mid-day temparatures only rising a few degrees above.

During this period, we experienced heavy rain resulting in flooding and standing water on the road; frost, ice and snow – all conditions which ‘winter’ tyres have been design optimised for. Subjectively, the tyres felt reassuringly surefooted in all the conditions this winter threw at it.

On a front-drive medium family hatch, the Continental Winter Contact TS830’s lost 1mm tread front; 0.5mm rears over these 3,500 miles (in a combination of town and open road driving). This compares almost identically to the wear rate for the Bridgestone Potenzas (a soft compound summer tyre) on the car. So the economics can stack-up, particularly as the winter tyres are smaller and so cheaper.

So, to Rob’s questions: are ‘Winter tyres worth the money?’ and ‘Are they being over marketed?’ One of the on-line pieces of Marketing material from a tyre manufacture showed an animation of 2 cars braking side-by-side in an emergency situation; the car fitted with winter tyres stopped, while the other car continued into the path of a lorry or left the road. At the time this did seem like Marketing hype, but when watching a couple of the tragic national news reports during the cold spell I realised that this marketing animation was in fact a sanitisation of reality where additional meters stopping-distance were vitally important.

Any credible road safety organisation will advise that having the best tyres for the conditions is about the best active safety enhancement you can make to a car. My experience of real-world drive-time temperatures during winter 2012 (in one of the warmer parts of the UK) has found 4 months of the year where ‘winter’ / ‘cold weather’ tyres are more appropriate to the cold wet conditions; plus the bonus of their additional ability on icy roads and during the week of snow.

I’m not sure if this video constitues Marketing Material, as it uses the facilities of a Tyre manufacture who want to sell you tyres, which they will advertise in the motoring magazine, but let’s hope the RAC bring a degree of impartiality to proceedings. It was actually the second half of the video showing comparative braking distances on a wet road at +5 degrees C which I found most relevant given that these conditions are what I’ve encountered most over the last 4 months. The additional 7m stopping distance required by the summer tyre at these temperatures on the wet surface helps inform the debate from a road safety perspective.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=elP_34ltdWI&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DelP_34ltdWI&gl=GB

On reflection of the last 4 months of motoring, I think winter tyres are ‘worth the money’. How much money you actually pay will come down to your ability to shop around and negociate effectively with tyre retailers/on-line wholesalers whose pricing policy varies widely by customer and is flexible if you ask nicely!

March Update:

Well, I put the tyres on the car back on October expecting a short period of driving on them and yet, a week into March they are still on the car due to frost and (yet more snow) being forecasted.

I agree with with many points being made here..

– It is very little or no less mroe expensive to drive on these tyres due to ‘shared wear’
– Time to fit when fitted to a spare set of ‘runners’ is minimal
– That 4 tyres should be installed – I have used 2 in the past and change my outlook after reading up
– They do make a difference

Three week ago I was out near Bolton, 3 inches on snow lying on the road and cars were getting half way up, loosing grip and sliding all over the road on the way back down. Waiting for a clear run, I waited and then set off all the way up to the top without any issue whatsover.

I firmly agree that in the days where seatbelts, air bags and other critical safety features are added to cars, the most basic item (the part that keeps the car on the road) is completly left to drivers.

It annoys me knowing I have propper tyres for the application that I have to watch cars withot almost slide into me out of control, block the roads and cause of many accidents are allowed to take a car onto the road in an ‘unfit condition’ for the weather.

Insurance companies should be taking the lead (seen as though the government won’t) in reducing payouts on a vehicle involved in an accident to 50% or nill due to the fact it was on the road without suitable tyres for the conditions if the accident is due to ice or snow on the road at the time.

Having used winter tyres every October until Feb/March for the last 5 years, I will never change back to risking normal summer tyres at this time of year, I consider safety of my family and others more important than risking not using them.

It is time that Which, the goverment and insurance companies forced cars to have correct tyres for the conditions instead of articles like the ones written here claiming they are a waste of money, therefore putting lives at risk by not telling them the truth.

If you want to see just what a difference it makes, search YouTube for “Dunlop Winter Tyre comparison summer winter” and see just what a difference they make. There are plently of other videos on YouTube to watch from BlackCircles and MyTyres that are well worth watching that compare summer, all season and winter tyres.

The only time I got stuck this year was on a very steep incline where I had to stop to let a car coming the other way skid past out of control and I needed to drop a cupful of salt in the tracks to let me get enough purchase to set off again, took 15 minutes to get back on the road again where others were turning around and heading back!!! Need I say more?

I was in Glenshee the last week in highlands of Scotland in February, car park was full of snow and ice, accelarted to 30 and applied braked. ABS kicked in and the car stopped in less than 3 lengths where any other would have ended up at the bottom of the hill in the ditch.

WHICH, start telling the truth and stop convincing readers to save a little money and NOT lives..

Winter isn’t quite over and it has been quite a mild one, but my neighbour still spent two weeks unable to get up our steep shared drive. With winter tyres I didn’t have the slightest difficulty, I didn’t lose grip at all.

I find myself feeling extremely nervous when driving a car fitted with summer tyres with ice and snow about.

WHICH? , it would be interesting to compare the grip of winter tyres on snow and ice with almost illegal summer tyres on a wet road whilst it is raining.

This extract from Continental’s web-site is interesting, though I’m not sure it addresses the significantly longer wet stopping distances recorded in AutoCar’s test at 11 degrees C:

‘There is a slight trade off with stopping distances as a winter tyre does not stop as quickly in the dry as a summer tyre, however, on balance if it is not possible to switch tyres in the winter, experts say you are better off with winter tyres all year round. This is because the difference in stopping distances of summer tyres in winter is far greater than for winter tyres in the summer.’

Source:

http://www.continental-tyres.co.uk/www/tyres_uk_en/themes/van-tyres/winter-tyres/why-winter-tyres.html

Perhaps this is an area the Which? Research Team could investigate for consumers seeking optimum safety as well as economical motoring.

Great article, we definitely take winter tyres fore-granted, most people think they’re just for snow, but they’re not, you can use winter tyres all year round. I read the other day that 1 in 6 people have an accident over the winter months because of the conditions on the road this statistic is scary and maybe winter tyres might help to lower this number!

All this talk about not fitting winter tyres is absolute stupid! Winter tyres in winter is a must, and any excuse is rubbish. If you cannot afford to run your car properly, then don`t buy a car.