Brief cases: used car warranty woes

Thanks for replying, Thomas. We do not know whether the dealer said it was OK for Paul to use the car until it could be repaired, offered no advice or advised him not to use the car, or whether the possibility of a loan car was considered. The offer of £504 towards the repair seems very generous.

Thomas, thanks for responding.
I agree with your comments about the real world. Nevertheless if the owner contributed to the problem by not getting a timely fix and exacerbating the problem then I think they share part of the responsibility. I don’t know how much it would have cost the original dealer to fix the problem but, under the circumstances, I think the settlement seems more than fair.

This is what nostairway is talking about –
https://workshop-manuals.com/bmw/3_series_e46/318i_n42_sal/2_repair_instructions/11__engine_(n42)/31__camshaft/4_ra__replacing_timing_chain_(n42_n46)/page_644/
This seems to be a common problem as here is an upmarket companies blog on the subject (with pictures )-
https://powerdevelopments.co.uk/blog/bmw-318ci-n42-n46-timing-chain-replacement/
BMW seem to indicate (on their forum ) that the timing chain —quote – “never needs replacing ” as an ex practical engineer I find that very dubious .

When timing chains were heavy duty and sometimes duplex (i.e. double) they generally lasted very well. Having had a look at examples of those used on this BMW are very lightweight look more like bicycle chains. In discussions about premature failure of timing chains – irrespective of make and model – the importance of changing the oil is regularly stressed.

I suggest taking a subscription to Which? Legal and get some legal advice.

The main problem with these engines seems to be wear in the chain guide and tensioner which can be detected by rattling from the engine at switch off as the chain is rather loose. The chain may not need replacing. It seems that the warranty should cover it (unless it has passed a replacement date or not been serviced correctly) and it would be sensible to replace the chain at the same time.

What level of RAC warranty came with the car? You could claim from your finance company, I believe, if you do not get satisfaction.

You are not alone GfourB -same company -same “insurance ” read TP–scroll down to Adam Khan –
https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.bigmotoringworld.co.uk
This would not happen under US law as it protects US citizens in situations like this .

When we strike a trade deal with the USA, would you like to import US law as well? Or do you think it will be imposed? i’d like to exclude their gun law.

I sympathise, GfourB, but think your partner’s son bought the wrong warranty, since the cover was far too low to pay for a major repair. It’s ridiculous that a £1000 warranty should only allow two claims of this amount.

When a timing chain or timing belt (more common these days) breaks or an ancillary component such as a tensioner fails, the result is often expensive damage. A wearing timing chain may rattle, suggesting the need for prompt investigation, and timing belts should be replaced according to the manufacturer’s service schedule. It’s vital to find out about the service history when buying any secondhand car.

It would be good if Which? reported on the poor value of some warranties. Back in the 1980s they pointed out the cost of warranties on small electrical goods, which could exceed the cost of the item covered.

Duncan – Could you please explain how US [Federal] law would protect a consumer who bought an inadequate warranty? The Financial Ombudsman Service presumably did not judge it to have been miss-sold but did recognise that the seller had not applied the terms of the warranty correctly and ensured that the buyer obtained the full value available under the warranty . Does the USA have an equivalent of our FOS to protect purchasers of financial products from miss-selling and illegal contracts?

I agree with Wavechange that the warranty did not provide the cover that was ultimately required. However, unless its cover provisions and its terms and conditions were deliberately misrepresented by the car dealer, it was the responsibility of the buyer to check that it was adequate or to accept the consequences. It is not unusual for car buyers to feel that there has been an element of pressure selling but in itself that is not illegal so long as the customer has the opportunity to consider the offer, is given time to read any relevant documentation, is apprised of all material facts, and is treated fairly.

Car dealing is a sharp business and warranties are profitable adjuncts to the primary sale. We have to be very astute and well-informed to make sure we make the right choices at every stage. Unfortunately the customer is frequently at a disadvantage in any negotiations.

Although there is nothing illegal or unusual about a warranty being provided by the seller [so long as it is adequately funded and underwritten] there is a lot to be said for buying the warranty separately and independently (a) to hedge against any conflict of interest, and (b) to avoid the bundling of the warranty purchase together with the car purchase in a ‘deal’ in such a way that the customer might not get the most suitable cover. This security comes at a price, of course, and one of the salesmanship ploys is to convince the customer that such an arrangement is not beneficial and too expensive. There are training courses on how to sell but I have never seen one on how to buy.

It seems to me that the malpractices identified in the “auto dealer fraud” website cited by Duncan have their equivalents in UK law. However, I don’t believe for one minute that there are no ‘stings’ or rip-offs in America despite the reputedly superior legal codes. At least the buyer in this case had support and obtained a remedy through the Financial Ombudsman Service at no cost to himself whereas the American process seems to be dependent on employing a lawyer and taking proceedings through the courts.

GfourB – As you can see, a fair amount of consideration has been given here to your case but we are neither experts nor lawyers. One way of testing the likelihood of a successful action against Big Motoring World would be to see if your home insurance policy includes legal action cover; if so and you submit your case the insurer’s lawyers would indicate whether you have good grounds to pursue your case against the dealer.

Alternatively, for no charge, you could take your case and all relevant documents and statements to Citizen’s Advice for a legal consultation. You would probably have to make an appointment.

You could consult Which? Legal who would prepare a case for you if their lawyers considered it was worth while. There is a fee payable for that service but their people are specialists and experts in consumer rights and the law on the sale of goods and services. Go to –
https://legalservice.which.co.uk/home?tcampaign=brand&msclkid=bfc9dac8926513862e03870fbbedb912

I think this is the only viable approach, John, especially since the ombudsman has been involved.

There have been many problems with BMW timing chains, so it might be worth GfourB checking if there have been problems with the model involved. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/23p5j5wzPtYflS7kFvmKVZf/bmw-deny-engine-failures-are-due-to-manufacturing-fault

Just missed your post Malcolm ,I have said many times if this country is going to be controlled by proxy using US giant companies I want US Law introduced here at the moment they have it both ways and treat this country like a third world country dodging taxes and UK Law .
I too would exclude US gun law here , many kids not liking what their father/mother has said pull out a gun and kill them.

I understand that while there may be good consumer protection laws, enforcing your claim may require the services of a lawyer – either costly, or on a contingency basis which I presume is where they take it on only if there is a pretty certain chance of winning. The same would happen here with legal protection insurance – take the case on of it looks an odds-on win. I do not know whether they have the equivalent of our small claims court where the fees are low and the process seemingly simple.

This is California,s small claim court laws Malcolm.-

https://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/small_claims/basic_info.shtml

I agree, Malcolm. The US does not “defend its citizens against unscrupulous dealers in car sales”, it merely provides a legislative basis on which a claim can be pursued through the courts. I would suggest that the full raft of consumer rights and protections in the UK, together with advisory services and dispute resolution facilities, are probably as good as you will find anywhere and better than in most countries.

I cannot see any criticism of the dealer as being “unscrupulous” in this case.

duncan, as far as I can see we know no history of the car, mileage or age. Many used car dealers include a 3 month warranty (franchised dealers 12 months). Was the buyer free to read the terms of the warranty offered? It is extraordinarily bad value.

BMW state if the engine oil and filter is changed regularly the timing chain should “last as long as the vehicle” but some think –over 100,000 miles Malcolm .
Most BMW enthusiast websites say they don’t have a problem with them as the chain is made to a high standard but do you think somebody is going to buy a BMW with big mileage ? I wouldn’t buy any car with a high mileage unless it was a collectors car that could be sold at a profit .
At the time of sale the buyer did not know the insurance company and the car dealer were the same businesses therefore he relied on an independent company holding an unbiased view and action that wasn’t the case it certainly looks like “slight of hand ” to me.
Read the TP post I gave an URL for.

Duncan – You are alleging that the car dealer was deceitful, dishonest and deliberately selling a car they knew to be seriously defective; serious accusations.

I saw no evidence of that in the comment from GfourB, but if that is in fact the case there are ample remedies available in the UK for such misconduct. A court would, of course, hear both sides of such a case whereas we only have part of the story; this limits the conclusions we can reach.

To add to Malcolm’s list of things we don’t know about this case, we don’t know the full text of the warranty documents and how they were presented, nor anything about the particular site from which the car was bought or any other customer experiences except some mixed reviews [some excellent] on TrustPilot, so until there is evidence of wrongdoing we have to accept that there was no illegal conduct. This might seem hard, although I sympathise with the buyer and his family, but I cannot see a line of legal action without a lot more information.

The question whether somebody would buy a car with high mileage depends on how much they are prepared to spend and how they wish to use it, but, as Malcolm has said, we have no relevant information in this case.

You drew attention to reviews on TrustPilot. They are available on line to be read in advance of proceeding with a purchase. If there are some unfavourable reviews that should be a warning to take special care.

I have looked at the Warranties 2000 website and can find no evidence of any formal link between the company and Big Motoring World. The ‘About’ section is quite informative. Most car dealers offer warranties from [and act as agents for] a preferred provider but there is no compulsion to take one. Even if there is a connexion, I am not aware that it is a legal requirement to disclose it although I have seen documents where such a relationship is declared in the terms and conditions. In respect of the condition of the vehicle purchased this point is not material. The dealer made a mistake in interpreting the provision made by the warranty and the status of the excess but this was corrected on further recourse to the Financial Ombudsman Service.

The buyer was under the assumption that the seller was offering him an independent insurance not linked to the sellers business but it was a company he owned since when is the “above board ” John ?
Remember CPCW and I think your expression -“upselling ” I called it f***d and my post was removed I have not changed my opinion.
Bait and Switch ” is well known in the USA for decades and its illegal -offer something and then say BUT it entails a-b or c to be bought -we have none left of the basic sale BUT buy —-
https://www.consumerreports.org/consumerist/what-is-the-bait-and-switch-and-when-is-it-illegal/
Even in Queensland Australia its illegal where they call it “bait advertising ” here is the Queensland government-
https://www.qld.gov.au/law/laws-regulated-industries-and-accountability/queensland-laws-and-regulations/business-advice-rights-and-responsibilities/avoid-using-unfair-business-practices-against-consumers/avoid-making-false-claims-about-products-or-services

As far as I can see Warranty2000 are a commercial company offering warranties through the motor trade and online. Various packages for which can get a quote. The warranty offered will depend upon car type, age and mileage and presumably the terns were available to the customer when the car was bought. This might be just a bad purchase decision.

Bjg Motoring World seem to give a 3 month warranty with a sale.

According to the poster the insurance company is part of the sellers organisation(or contracted ) as he says the insurance is his quote- “Big,s own cover ” .
If it turns out the companies are not associated then the car dealer is guilty of misrepresentation as the insurance is then personal as he has applied this to other customers by using a trade name not associated with his own company to make it look independent.
Even his name is Bapchild motoring world , his company -Mr Peter Waddle /Jemima Ferguson started in 2000 by a “strange co-incidence ” the insurance company is called—-Warranties 2000 even more surprising is the very same complaints about the insurance company – excuse the URL –very eye opening -page after page – “useless insurance company “-
https://warranties-2000.pissedconsumer.com/review.html
Something not kosher here.

Duncan – Since we have no direct evidence of the discussions that led to the purchase of the warranty that took place at the car dealer’s site it is not fair to speculate.

The Big Motoring World Group operates from two large sales sites in Kent and sells thousands of cars every year. If there are adverse reviews clearly available for public inspection in advance of purchase then potential buyers need to be cautious.

The company says it is one of Motor Trader‘s top ten independent dealerships in the country and has been in existence for over 30 years.

I cannot understand why you are trying so hard to make out that the company is corrupt or trading illegally without producing a shred of evidence to support those contentions. Personally I think that is an irresponsible misuse of Which? Conversation and cannot be of any help or comfort to the car buyer in this case or to other potential purchasers from the company.