How can public electric vehicle charging be improved?

Thanks, Dhara.

The Conversation is proving very interesting, largely because it is not over-constrained by the topic.

I support the use of smart tariffs to help balance the load on generators over a 24 hour period. I have my reservations about feeding electricity back into the grid on a regular basis because that will shorten the life of vehicle batteries.

I must admit I have more faith in Citizens Advice resolving the compatibility and distribution problems than certain other organisations.

It’s interesting that Vynor compared the development with the early days of internal combustion engine vehicles and the evolution of petrol pumps. Shell and BP are two of the leading providers of electric vehicle charging points. Shell aspire to having 5,000 charge points by 2025 delivering 100% renewable energy [energy sources need verifying], and BP aims for 16,000 charge points by 2030. I assume these numbers represent the individual supply points rather than the hubs.

A new charging hub recently opened near Braintree in Essex with capacity to charge up to 36 cars at the same time. The operator is Gridserve Sustainable Energy Ltd which hopes to provide 100 public recharging stations in community locations rather than alongside main roads. The company is developing solar farms to generate the power required to enable their supplies to come from 100% renewable sources; the power will be fed into the National Grid for distribution and there will be high capacity battery storage at the charging hubs to enable grid balancing. The solar panels at their photovoltaic generators will be bifacial, allowing them to harvest energy from both sides of the panel.

There will come an interesting crossover point when fossil fuel sales fall to the point when conventional filling stations become uneconomic and fuel duty revenue collapses. Many could convert partly or wholly to electric vehicle charging [subject to power supplies]. As that time approaches EV sales will probably accelerate and demand could overtake supply capacity. I just hope power supplies will keep pace with the uptick in demand – a lot of faith is being placed in a further expansion of wind and solar power because the nuclear gap will probably not be closed in time. The taxation regime would have to change as well.

I can’t see on-street charging infrastructure keeping pace with the sales of EV’s so public charging hubs might be the only way of achieving the government’s target to ban sales of new fossil fuel-powered cars by 2030.

I do hope that Shell and BP will have competition. I avoid buying fuel from them and head to the supermarket filling stations unless this is not practical.

Citizens Advice have proposed that the cost of electricity should be shown as pence per kWh and I strongly support that. At present, Ofgem sets a maximum price for resale of electricity (e.g. by landlords). Presumably similar regulation will be needed for public charging points.

I haven’t seen any comments from the supermarkets about the use of their forecourts for electric vehicle charging. By the nature of their store and car parking layouts, their filling stations are often quite cramped [especially in urban areas] being designed for the quick turn-round of vehicles to fill up and move on. However, I can’t see them being left behind on this and if rapid charging technology is successful then it should not be too difficult to arrange for vehicles to recharge while the driver is doing the shopping.

I agree there must be a standardised unit price basis across all charging point operators. However, I don’t immediately see why there should be a maximum price for electrical energy sold at charging points anymore than there is for petrol and diesel sold at a pump. That could deprive rural communities in more remote or hard-to-serve locations of sufficient recharging facilities.

It’s not just the price of power from the grid that has to be recovered from the sale price but the overheads and staffing costs for each charging hub. A major national operator could equalise those costs across their estate but a smaller regional or local provider could be faced with higher costs in their catchment area and need to recover them. If we want good competition then I think we must leave pricing to the market. [Energy price controls on landlords are a different issue; tenants are captive and in a direct relationship with landlords; historic evidence demonstrated that tenants needed protection from abuse of the landlord’s dominant position.]

There may be more players in the oil industry these days, and things might have changed, but some years ago, the likes of Shell, BP and Esso supplied the supermarkets with fuel. Supermarket fuel didn’t contain the additives that supposedly looked after your engine which was why it was cheaper and why we don’t buy from supermarkets. 🙂 🙃 🙂

Whether the claimed benefits of premium fuels are worth it is an argument that will run and run – rather like engines do these days. Back in the days when cylinder heads had to be decarbonised regularly and petrol engines did not have computers and anti-knock sensors, the quality of fuel was certainly a factor.

John – I don’t know what will happen in rural areas but perhaps householders will be allowed to resell electricity to passing motorists, helping supporting the local economy. If this happens then regulation of resale price might not go amiss.

I bet the premium fuels have a higher profit margin too. 🙂

I agree that having a cafe would make waiting for charging more bearable. A related issue is the need to move customers away from the charging point as soon as possible to make it available for other customers. I presume that apps will provide users with a timely warning to move their car.

I can’t see any reason why householders should not be allowed to sell electricity to drivers so long as they park off the road to connect. Our next door neighbour charges for the use of her driveway to a commuter during the week and some people rent their properties out via Airbnb; such activities require no special permission and I think electric charging should be the same.

I see no need for resale price controls either. No doubt such arrangements would be organised through an app which would give the unit price per Kwh [or whatever metric was devised]. Regulation comes at a cost in administration and enforcement and seems an unnecessary burden on the government for little benefit.

I would not want to use a private charger without knowing that the installation is electrically safe to avoid the risks of electrocution and fire. Car chargers can deliver much higher currents than a mains socket. Airbnb properties are subject to fire regulations, but I don’t know if they have to meet the regulations for electrical safety imposed on landlords.

Incidentally, the SI unit of energy is kWh, not kwh, Kwh or kW/h, etc. The poor thing is one of the most abused units.

Just remember that Watt was someone’s name. The symbol is often incorrectly written. ” Symbols: Unit symbols are written in upper case letters when derived from the name of a person (W for watt, Pa for pascal, A for ampere etc.).“
The watt is not a basic SI unit but a derived one.
“ The seven SI base units, are comprised of:
Length – metre (m)
Time – second (s)
Amount of substance – mole (mol)
Electric current – ampere (A)
Temperature – kelvin (K)
Luminous intensity – candela (cd)
Mass – kilogram (kg) ”.

I presume any private person selling electricity to the the public to charge an EV would need to be insured, have equipment regularly checked and probably need a licence. I wonder for the small return that would give whether it would be worth it. Unless other services were offered from the premises……..

An obvious incentive to provide a charging point is if you use your property as an Airbnb. I hope I’m OK letting neighbours park on the drive occasionally – for no charge.

To add to the list of SI units, the coulomb (C) is the unit of electric charge. 🙂

Has that superseded the pound? I’ll see if I can write a cheque in coulombs to Scottish Power. 🙁

It might be worth councils that are struggling to provide sufficient public charging points exploring the possibility of encouraging householders with private parking and charging facilities to make these available for use by others.

“Encouraging” sounds rather like providing incentives or subsidies. I do not want my council tax used to fund private households to help EV owners. The system needs to stand on its own feet (tyres). Out council has provided two charging points in one of their car parks that I use. I have never yet seen a car use them.

Encouraging need not involve payment, but providing small grants may be a cost effective way for some councils to meet their target for charging points. Regarding incentives we already have grants towards the purchase of certain models of battery electric vehicles and towards the cost of installing a charge point.

Our town used to have a charge point in the shopping centre but Lidl and Morrisons have now joined in and it appears that the Council has provided two. Here is one source of information: https://www.zap-map.com

Grants are payments, aren’t they. That sounds like accountant speak 🙂 🙂
EVs are expensive even with a grant so affordable largely by those already able to buy a new car. I am not in favour of that subsidy, nor the cost of charging points. I would rather public money was devoted to public transport (electric / hybrid) for the benefit of all, including those less well off, and sharing in the cost of setting up UK manufacturing of electric vehicles and associated components.

I thought what I said was clear.

I expect there will be further subsidies in future, maybe scrappage schemes to get the most polluting cars off the road.

The householder would certainly be wise to have the electrical installation certified as compliant but I doubt many external users would enquire about the safety aspects.

Allowing non-household use could become a question on buildings and contents insurance policy quotations.

If a car is going to be left on charge for several hours there is no need for the power supply to deliver a high power rapid recharge.

I bet people will allow others to park on their drive and charge up their car without any authority knowing about it – and why not? Why should they need a licence?

Streets with driveways probably won’t have a problem with residents’ vehicle recharging although they could contribute to the overall availability of facilities for other local residents but I foresee time conflicts.

It will be interesting to see how many local authorities will provide recharging points on the public highway. I don’t think they will be under any obligation to do so and it might be unlawful for them to do so without making an overall surplus on the operation. It is more likely that they will tender concessions so that private companies are authorised to open the highway and provide the installations in return for payment [at the prices bid in their tenders], or for the provision of highway improvements, or for both.

Unless the car was there all day you would need a 7kW charger and that’s more than enough to cause mayhem if not properly installed and maintained. There are still many homes that don’t have an RCD, so it would be foolhardy to plug an EV into a wall socket for a slow charge. I agree that it might be necessary to have insurance cover. We can wait and see what happens but I expect that regulations will eventually appear, though they would be difficult to police.

I envisage that informal charging arrangements on a private driveway would involve all-day recharging on a regular basis set up between the householder and the car owner. If it was run like a commercial recharging facility with rapid charging it would probably need planning permission because it could soon become a public nuisance. I would object if our neighbour did that and had a turnover of vehicles throughout the day.

I doubt whether all councils will set targets for electric vehicle charging points – I don’t think it is obligatory to do so. Many streets will not have space for recharging all the vehicles owned by the residents of the street.

Eventually the government might have to legislate to require local authorities to bring order into the situation before it descends into chaos. I see that as the rough end of the stick that the government doesn’t want to handle, in the foreseeable future at least.

I hope the action being taken now by Citizens Advice will propel the government into sensible action before it’s too late. The track record on that is not encouraging.

I wonder who would use these charging points. Most EV users will have adequate range from a single charge to last a week if the vehicle is used locally. Many owners will have suitable charging arrangements. Those who need public charging points are more likely, I would think, would be those making long journeys. I doubt they would use private charging points. Just my thoughts.

Maybe there will need to be an appointments system for charging EVs at central charging centres. Most EV owners will get a week’s motoring out of a single charge so, when they do not have their own source, they will have to suffer some inconvenience to keep their private transport ready for use. Maybe they will find better public transport to be an alternative some of the time and thus avoid charging too regularly.

I don’t think there will be much trade in electricity on people’s private driveways, except perhaps where people have a standing arrangement with a commuter or other regular user for renting a space on the drive during weekdays when a weekly recharge of the vehicle might be a part of the deal. People won’t want to get involved on either side in complex transactions and billing.

I can imagine if we had relatives coming over to visit we would let them charge up before their long journey home but there would be no charge for the electricity.

As for commercial recharging stations, I think some form of appointment system will be necessary, at least at busy times, until capacity builds up and demand has settled down. The occupation times for chargepoints will be quite different to the situation with fuel pumps. The charging stations might need to allow for each chargepoint to be engaged for 20-30 minutes [allowing for some coming and going, late arrivals and departures, and other operational exigencies]. A fair amount of space will be needed to allow for queuing and waiting – charging slots could be cancelled if the vehicle was late by more than a few minutes. No doubt it will all settle down quite quickly as people get to know when is the best time to get served with their trickle of juice. Presumably the driver will be required to remain on site throughout the charging period so that the vehicle can leave the stand as soon as charging is complete.

As has been said, early electric car sales will be to people who have charging facilities where they live, so roadside charging stations will really only be needed for long journeys and from 2030 when there will be no alternative to having an electric car for regular use [when liquid fuel supplies will start to dry up]. However, if sufficient progress is not forthcoming with rolling out on-street charge points for the millions of car owners who have to park on the public highway , then the commercial charging hubs will be in high demand. Comparative pricing – on-street versus off-street – could become an issue affecting local decisions: what if the council had, at enormous expense, dug up the streets and installed charging stanchions only to find that a big charging station opened up down the road with cheaper juice?

Perhaps a new psychosomatic symptom of recharging anxiety will develop if the whole process becomes too stressful and petty squabbles arise over who is first at the plug.

There will be an awful lot of diesel and petrol vehicles still on the road in 2030 when the sales of new ones is set to cease. Many people will simply be unable or unwilling to part with what was an expensive purchase, apart from the millions of commercial vehicles that will still need, mainly, diesel. So I doubt fuel will dry up that quickly.

I wonder what scope there is to convert existing cars to electric? Scrapping 36 000 000 perfectly usable vehicles is hardly good for sustainability.

I don’t entirely share your confidence in the availability of petrol from 2030, Malcolm. I think the supply of petrol will start to wither away as soon as electric car sales overtake petrol and diesel car sales. Ultimately, fuel availability will follow the pattern of demand and at the end of this decade we could be having Conversations about the distribution of petrol pumps instead of ATM’s.

The production of many petrol and diesel models will start to be scaled back well before 2030 and the used car market will be changing dramatically – although that could be useful for those who don’t want to change to an electric car if old petrol cars became significantly cheaper. Trade-in values for petrol and diesel cars would tumble the closer we got to the end of the road for fossil fuel, so many owners might change to electric sooner rather than later to take advantage of better trade-in rates.

There are approximately 30 million cars in use at present. At the normal average rate of vehicle ownership turnover [2.5m p.a.], it would take about twelve years to replace all the fossil fuel cars on the road today. But I don’t expect the change to proceed at an even pace; I think it will pick up quite soon and then start accelerating so that only a relatively small number of petrol and diesel cars will be left by 2033. And as they go, liquid road fuel supply will reduce as filling stations convert to electric charging hubs.

Whatever might happen to cars I presume there will still be very large numbers of diesel commercial vehicles on the road that will need fuelling. Hopefully I can take my diesel car there.
However, many people either hang on to their cars a long time for sustainability reasons or buy older cars because they do not have the spare cash for anything better, certainly not £30k for an electric car. The key in my view is providing much better public transport so the poorer members of our society are not forgotten.

I certainly agree with that, Malcolm.

My comment recognised that diesel cars will outlast petrol ones because of the need for fuel for commercial vehicles – although electric vans are starting to become more noticeable now.

Electric-powered medium trucks [up to 15 tonne payloads] are on the horizon but there is no likelihood of LGV’s [up to 44 tonnes] running on anything other than diesel in the foreseeable future, so electrifying more of the railways – at least the core freight routes – should be a parallel priority.

Having been awarded £32 m of taxpayers’ money by the government for transport improvements in and around Norwich, our county council has consulted on some potty road schemes. I have recommended that they spend the money on a fleet of new electric buses with a solar recharging capability to boost the batteries while in service.

The National Infrastructure Commission is the official body charged with carrying out an evaluation of major projects balancing the various concerns against the national interest. There will always be some conflicting interests in any major scheme and the question is the weight to be attached to each. Ecology, environmental effects, conservation, side-effects and counter-balancing benefits can all be mixed into the assessment but that’s where the disputes arise. The NIC then has a duty to make the judgment and pronounce. To some extent the government’s decarbonisation policy [implying reduced emissions] has made it easier to make a decision in favour of developing more renewable energy resources even if there are significant environmental detriments. The conflicts do not necessarily have to be evenly balanced on a single project basis or even generally, in my opinion.

Thanks for giving more information about the dangers. The present grant scheme for EV chargers is only available for professional installations, which will help. I presume that home installations would not be permitted under the Part P regulations because a new circuit would be needed. I think I am right in saying that privately owned homes with old wiring are still quite common. These may have a fuse box and no RCD. If I stayed with friends I would want to inspect their electrical system before plugging in an EV.

This reminds me of a rather dangerous situation I encountered some years ago where someone I used to know had a campervan parked on a public road and he had it hooked up to his mains supply WITHOUT an earth! So I sorted it pretty quick. And now a lot of local supply networks are being or have been rewired and substations rebuilt etc. as they have where I live so it’s quite possible now that local earthing systems will have been somewhat altered and some old TNS supplies now might well be more like TNCS with all the problems that can cause. And I hope the new cables and transformers they’re installing will have bigger capacity as they’ll need to with so many charging points being needed.

You are right there Wavechange. In my own circumstance it was the replacement an electric shower that changed the fuse box to an RCD set of trip switches. I had lived with the fuse box without a thought. Now, of course, even that RCD box has been updated in the recent build. The point is that it was these items that changed the circuits and not an official order from the authorities to modernise. There was no push from outside to do anything. Thus many people may have been like me and not bothered.

At least if you use a public charge point you should be safe.

Crusader – I guess you are an electrician, understanding the different earthing systems etc. I’m not but I don’t go far without a Martindale tester. I’ve found two hook-up leads with crossed L and N conductors another with no Earth and plenty of extension leads and mains sockets with no Earth. Several years ago a friend was asking my advice about some electrical matters and I found three sockets with defective Earth. Although he has been a shrewd businessman his attitude was that there cannot be anything wrong since the sockets work. He was thinking about buying an EV but thankfully he bought a petrol one.

Vynor – Home owners are not required to have their electrical system inspected, but their insurance may require that it is in safe condition. There is no requirement to have an RCD, though it will improve your chances of not being electrocuted, and fuseboxes are still allowed in existing installations. You will be able to plug your car in to a mains socket if you visit or stay with friends but a public charger could be safer.

I am recommending all the young people I know who have a technical aptitude to take up an electrician apprenticeship. I think secure long-term employment is virtually guaranteed.

A better bet then media studies. Time we had more vocationally-qualified people who can actually contribute something useful.

If you have not had your wiring inspected recently, now might be a good time, particularly if you want to charge an EV without a professionally installed charge point. I have found the YouTube videos by John Ward useful in helping me understand the earthing systems that Crusader has mentioned.

I hope that if councils encourage homeowners to make charging facilities available to others on a commercial basis that they will require inspection of these facilities.

I presume that public charge points will be subject to period inspection and testing.

As a matter of interest, what stops the local vandal or curious kid from disconnecting a car left on a public street charger overnight? And do the cables recoil or reel back into the unit when disconnected?

Here is a useful video about public EV chargers: https://www.smarthomecharge.co.uk/guides/how-to-use-a-public-charger-for-an-electric-car/

The cable hangs much like the pipe of a petrol pump when not in use and would not be flexible enough to reel up. With these tethered chargers the connector is locked to the car when the vehicle is being charged. I hope there is an interlock that stops users driving off with their car still hooked up.

I presume that sites are monitored by CCTV cameras. If vandals can be identified I expect they will be charged.

In my question I was thinking primarily of the street stanchions that will have to be installed throughout our towns and cities.

The video pre-supposes that most electric car owners will be charging their batteries overnight at home. That is probably true initially because there is little alternative, and only people with the space and equipment to charge up at home will buy an EV.

It did not seem to recognise that eventually possibly 75% of electric vehicles will have to be charged on the public highway via a cable connected to a supply point. I think these units can recharge up to four cars simultaneously so a bit of neighbourly organisation will be necessary.

The units will be used for long charging periods rather than rapid recharges so the power supply is relatively low and the cables much thinner than at the charging hubs. Two snips with some heavily insulated bolt cutters would have the cable away. It is unlikely that every street with kerbside chargers will be covered by CCTV monitoring.

I am concerned that local authorities are taking far too long to get on with the job of having street chargers installed. To enable universal all-electric motoring by 2035 [say] councils must start deciding very soon where they are going to install street charging points in an order of progress. This could be politically tricky, and controversial, and will take some time. We have got to avoid people in a road scrapping over who can park outside their own house [will EV’s get parking priority near a stanchion?], and also avoid EV owners running a cable across the pavement.

Might be a lot of vagrants hooking their caravans up to street charging points. Some naughty householders have connected to lamp posts in the past.

I don’t want to see yet more streets watched by CCTV. It is an uncomfortable feeling.

The essential problem is EVs take too long to recharge. Who wants to hang around while it happens when you could be watching paint dry instead. And why should I be forced to go for an unpleasant meal or an expensive coffee just to while away the hours? One way would be to standardise battery packs in modules and make them easily interchangeable. So you rent them and when yours needs replenishing, the charging station exchanges it. Alternatively you rent your electric vehicle and swap it for a charged one. At least for those unable to charge their own conveniently.

I do not think we should expect an electric life to be the same as a fossil fuel one.

John – There are various solutions for preventing theft of charging cables (which will be your own property) for use with non-tethered charging points.

Cars generally have a much longer life than they did in the past and I presume that these will still be available secondhand after new petrol/diesel ones are no longer available. During the pandemic, homes with gardens have become more popular and expensive. I’m sure that homes with charging points or the opportunity to install one will be an attractive feature for many buyers and homes with no parking will become more affordable and attractive to those who do not wish to or are not permitted to drive.

At present our council is offering free charging at its two charging sites in town, presumably as an incentive to use them. At our small shopping centre you can park for two or three hours for £1 with free charging. Morrisons and Lidl offer no such perks.

I wonder if the current priority should be for councils to make their roads fit to use by everyone, including cyclists and motorcyclists, by fixing potholes. Let people with off-road space take up EVs first. Those who live in crowded towns without their own facilities should have access to good local public transport and be encouraged to use it.

I do not think an electrical future will simply replicate the personal transport freedom we currently enjoy – although given rush hour traffic, jams, parking restrictions “enjoy” is not an appropriate description for many. Good local public transport would address those problems if private transport were restricted. There are just too many of us competing for space to make the current situation sustainable.

If you charge your vehicle at someone else’s property then take a portable plug in RCD, they’re widely available and they’re cheap enough now, but always test such a device before each use as I’ve had at least two of them fail and they didn’t fail safe. And you can either get a plug in adapter, or a plug with an RCD built in, or an extension cable with such a device fitted, and you can also get inline RCD’s to fit in an extension lead yourself. And you can also get a basic RCD testing device like I’ve got which plugs in to a normal domestic socket protected by an RCD to test it first, although beware of using such a gadget in someone else’s home as it might trip out their whole ring main while they’re watching their favourite TV show, I’ve done that once, and don’t forget that some consumer units have an RCD on the main isolating switch so if you trip that out it takes out all the power…

Yes, a portable RCD is well worth having if there is no RCD in the consumer unit. They became popular for use on outdoor equipment when few homes had a modern consumer unit.

I have a Martindale EZ150 socket tester that provides an indication of a missing/poor Earth (and incorrect wiring) but is designed not to trip a 30mA RCD. Other brands now offer this feature. The only time I tripped an outdoor supply I found that it had a 10mA RCD, which are not common.

Electrical Safety First has published various warnings about the risks of ad hoc arrangements for charging from mains sockets and has pointed out that a lack of public infrastructure for public charge points contributes to the problem: https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/media-centre/press-releases/2019/05/driven-to-danger-electric-vehicle-drivers-charging-dangerously-due-to-lack-of-public-infrastructure/

I hope that public charge points are inspected and tested routinely.

Malcolm – I don’t think there needs to be any funding conflict between fixing potholes and other highway defects and installing on-street charging units. I am sure it will be possible for local highway authorities to go out to tender for companies to install the infrastructure free of charge in return for retaining the revenue from the sale of the electricity. The council would remain in control of the location of each unit and the reinstatement of the footway.

I rarely see any potholes in the roads nowadays so don’t have a feel for how big the problem is.

I agree with your final paragraph.

I think more consideration certainly needs to be given to solving some of these logistical problems. I expect the industry is onto it.

I would hope that the satnavs in new electric cars would receive live feeds from charging stations and update the data on the move. You’re right – people shouldn’t be doing it on their smart phone. Apart from stations being temporarily out-of-use, some might have long queues [or, under an appointment system, no available slots for several hours].

I downloaded the Zap Map app and that showed me that one charging point at each of the council’s two new charging stations was in use and the ones at Lidl, Morrisons and the small shopping centre were vacant. There is the opportunity for users to report faults and success in using chargers via the app.

I have not heard of an appointment system for using chargers but that might come when there are more electric vehicles on the roads.

At present I run a diesel Golf and if I am planning a long trip I can fill up before setting off and never need to think about fuel. That’s very different from my first car which had a smaller range than many battery electric vehicles. I can remember ‘range anxiety’! In a car with a limited range you have the choice of taking the risk and going on until the battery is nearly empty or playing it safe and stopping sooner. Thanks to smartphones we have a better opportunity to make informed decisions.

Displaying information on a sat nav would be one option but that too could be distracting for a driver.

I wish Ian would come back and join in because he will have experience, having owned a Prius for a few years.

Thanks for your experiences, Dhara. It’s encouraging that it is practical to own an EV despite being dependent on public chargers. That would not work in many places where chargers are still something of a novelty. By not charging the battery fully you might prolong its useful life.

It must be incredibly annoying to find non-EV cars parked at a charging point, almost as bad as fit people parking in spaces for the disabled.

I have noticed that as well, Vynor. Buying a new car has effectively been put on hold for the last year and will not pick up again immediately. Deeply unfortunate though it is, of course, the market has also shrunk.

People can still buy petrol and diesel cars if they wish and will presumably be able to continue to use them after the ban on sales. I expect that many, like John, will delay replacing cars until they know more about electric vehicles and more choice is available. Others like Vynor have already taken the plunge. I’m not going to worry about replacing my car, which has cost me less than £300 in repairs since 2012.

I am planning to reduce my annual mileage by supporting a charity based 2 miles away instead of making many 40 mile round trips. I hope that the lockdowns have helped many people realise the benefits of staying local. I will continue to hope that electric cars will become more affordable. At present, manufacturers will be recouping their development costs of designing and testing new vehicles and presumably using the money to expand their range. At present there is plenty of generating capacity to meet the needs of charging vehicles overnight, though future demands will need to be addressed.

For years I knew only one person with an EV, but now I have two other friends who bought EVs before the first lockdown. I look forward to seeing their cars and learning about their experiences.

With a substantial amount of our electricity coming from gas and biomass am not sure how much carbon emissions will be saved by burning these fuels to produce electricity and charging cars, but this will change. The compelling reason to move to an EV is if you drive in cities, because we need to tackle air pollution.

I thought Drax was the only major biomass power generating station in the UK but recently discovered that Lynemouth power station in Northumberland had recently been converted to biomass. Drax is colossal and produces 2,640MW using its four biomass plants while Lynemouth has a capacity of 420MW. Ferrybridge multi-fuel power station has an output of 79MW. There are over 170 other biomass generators, mostly small-scale [below 20MW] and 17 mid-range plant [20-50MW].

Most of the smaller units are associated with industrial activities at or near the same site and use bi-products or waste materials arising nearby which I consider environmentally good.

However, the Drax, Lynemouth, and Ferrybridge power stations import vast quantities of pelletised biomass [mainly from growing timber]. This is largely sourced from the USA, transported to the eastern seaboard and then shipped across the Atlantic Ocean to Liverpool [for Drax and Ferrybridge] and Ashington [for Lynemouth] whence it is carried by diesel-hauled train to the power station. Ignoring the issue of chopping down trees [Earth’s carbon absorbers] to burn and planting replacements, how on Earth can the transport arrangements be environmentally acceptable? This is an unsustainable process labelled ‘renewable‘ for public consumption.

Please could we move our discussions about electricity generation, electric cars etc to The Lobby? This is interesting and important but has no direct relevance to the problems that users are facing when using public charging facilities.

EVs, electricity generation, the future of fossil fuelled cars have relevance in a Convo dealing with charging points, moreso than getting lost in the lobby. There have not been that many posts about actual problems with charging points but plenty around the topic. So I would prefer we do not move it as we would then lose all these comments.

However, that decision is Which?s.

Some of what we write is for the general education of Which?, its Conversation authors and other contributors. I think it is useful to have related material associated with this in order to see that there is more to electric car use than topping it up. And, put more bluntly perhaps than Malcolm expressed it, I don’t think the proposition from Citizen’s Advice is conducive to much discussion since it is eminently sensible and just what consumers will agree with.

I have nothing against going off topic to some extent and I have done a great deal of that myself but I recognise that it is unhelpful to enter into protracted discussion, which is why I have not continued to discuss environmental impact assessment.

We as regulars have been encouraged to steer topics back on course, albeit not recently, but our Community Guidelines state: “Please keep comments relevant to the topic at hand – veering off to add colour to your point is fine, but we like to keep conversations on course. If you want to go off-topic then head over to The Lobby.”

I think this Convo has developed with relevant albeit related comments. Moving to The Lobby is not necessary in my view, particularly as it would lose the history that leads to ensuing comments. And the Lobby would soon become a mess.

However those who feel it better can do so. Part of the charm of Convos is in the diversity of comments and information provided.

The moderators can decide, of course.

We are certainly now right off topic. Perhaps we should….. no 🙂

I would find a journey on Which? Conversation rather uninteresting without the branch lines that take us to different destinations. I don’t think I learn much from the basic Conversation preamble and opening comments, whereas the contributions around the topic can be informative and quite useful. I wouldn’t want Conversations just being a series of “that also happened to me”-type comments.

I don’t think our extemporisations on extra mural matters have done any harm to the original Conversation and at least it’s still running quite vigorously unlike some with a narrower field of vision.

I share your doubts, Phil.

In a renewable future we have to over-provide capacity to ensure reliability of energy supply during the coldest parts of the year. We are not there yet and heat pumps are not the magic bullet.

One of the useful factors in considering hydrogen as a fuel is that it is a way of storing energy. While for traction it takes three times as much electricity to achieve the same amount of power at the wheel as a direct electrical supply, it can be used in places where electricity is not available like remote railways, or not economical such as on low traffic lines. If the input resource – wind, solar, and tidal – are effectively free, the relative efficiency of making electricity from hydrogen is less of a concern [although the purists would still criticise it].

As Wavechange said the other day, hydrogen can be used for space heating and cooking either on its own or in combination with natural gas to avoid having to rely on electricity as the substitute for gas. This would take the pressure off generating station capacity, and surplus renewable energy in the hot months can be used to build up hydrogen stocks for the winter.

We also need to allow for environmental reconsideration of biomass as an energy resource.

Well said, John

I am so relieved that people are finally waking up to the biomass scam. It’s incredible that this has been allowed to develop; you really couldn’t make it up.

They fell for this in NI where the inept government subsidy – the Renewable Heating Incentive – made burning biomass profitable when it was quite unnecessary. Cost the public purse £500m. No politician had the integrity to take any responsibility.

The hope politicians have with Drax is someone can magic up carbon storage as a “solution”. But it does not address the issue of carrying fuel, that will not actually be replaced, thousands of miles so unethical people can claim subsidy off the taxpayer.

The trees being cut down to be burnt as biomass are already nature’s carbon absorbers. Transporting them 3,000 miles in an oil fuelled ship just adds insult to injury.

Richard – As I wrote previously, this is an unsustainable process labelled ‘renewable‘ for public consumption.

Do the downhills recharge the batteries for the uphills, Vynor?

We are on the top of a hill so wherever we go is downhill, which means that coming home is always an uphill task for the motor. I would be worried that after a long day out gliding around the fens or the Brecks or the Broads [which are all at or below sea level] the car would be struggling a bit.

The one thing I look forward to in the future is that everyone will have to drive smaller and lighter vehicles. This will make country roads more pleasant and towns safer, make parking easier, and lead to a big reduction in noise and particulate pollution. So long as diesel engine road fuel is available this might just be a dream, of course.

Richard – I would suggest that the cost of a nuclear power station now is closer to £20 billion than £10 billion. The critical thing is that they can take ten years from start on site to commissioning. If we had a rolling programme of the same design, costs could be reduced and the build period shortened.

My calculations indicated 13 more nuclear power stations the output of Hinkley Point C to fuel EVs if all existing cars were replaced, plus another 12 to replace domestic gas for heating and cooking.
Whatever the real number it does not seem achievable.

However, we won’t be on our own in wanting to construct and fuel nuclear power stations, whereas we can lay claim to out own wind, sun and, importantly I believe, our tides (unless they fall foul of the EU who might claim them, as they originate in international waters.

Actually, I believe our tides originate in space, from the gravitational pull of our moon and sun.

I think 90 minutes seems quite a generous time allowance but it depends what the charging speed is per kiloWatt. Perhaps it takes over an hour if the battery is flat. The hourly rate seems high but the connexion charge is low. I expect the prices are set to recoup the considerable investment required.

That is a long time to have to queue though.
1kWh should give you up to 10km. It all depends on the rate of charge but I would have thought a 15 minute top up while you wait with your vehicle would be adequate for most people who are no doubt local and can charge fully at home. That would minimise inconvenience to others in the queue.

Zap Map records users’ comments and poor charging speeds seems to be a common complaint.

I gather that the speed can depend on the charger so the stated output of the charge point is an ‘up to’ figure.

That should read: “…the speed can depend on the vehicle…”