Can you study for a degree in two years?

I agree with you Wavechange and with Ian. I don’t think intellectual compression is the way forward. It occurs to me that we have virtually run out of workers in this country and some further merit-based restrictions on entry would be helpful to the economy. I do not agree with student loans and think that courses should be free of charge to eligible UK students. I am sure universities could do a lot more to reduce their operating costs but shortening degree courses should not be one of them,

I ask this quite openly, and without prejudice : How valuable is “the social experience of going to university”? And is it better than starting work? I mingle with a number of undergraduates and some of them, even at age 21, are quite juvenile, ill-mannered, and lacking in normal social etiquette and respect for others. There are also many exceptions to that generalisation but I am uncomfortable with the notion that a three-year university course is the best preparation for adult life. The eventual realities of the workplace must come as a massive shock to some.

For some students part of their course demands working on a project during the long breaks between terms. Generally, however, I would like to see students take on “holiday” jobs related to their course, to get an understanding of the real world, of work, of interacting with others both socially and professionally. I spend a large part of one long break working on maintenance in a power station, seeing practical issues and being looked after by people who did this for a living.

If we had the resources I would also support free further education, but money needs to be spread first to priority causes. If going to university is seen as an investment in your personal future then making a contribution towards it – a commitment to your education – seems reasonable. However, I would like to look at graded contributions, so that those pursuing less useful degrees end up paying towards them, even if they don’t earn the minimum salary. and in contrast, subsidise those who pursue the courses that will contribute to this country’s future. Perhaps I could contrast media studies and some of the arts with engineering, science and medicine?

Different degrees require different amount of application. A music degree, for instance requires (if it’s practically based) around six hours practice per day, which is why when doing my first degree the Local Authority gave vacation grants to music students to obviate the need to find work during the holidays.

In terms of fees, I would make all university fees free, but ensure there was a strictly operated meritocratic entrance procedure. Fees don’t represent a large proportion of costs for a student. Most are accommodation and living costs, so making fees free would be relatively painless. Always wondered why Clegg didn’t force that through when the Liberals were in coalition with the Tories.

Now, I know Malcolm will reiterate his concern that there’s not enough money, but I’ve already stated my belief that that’s a fallacy, propagated by certain politicians and, in fact, there’s a school of International Economics thinking that argues in favour of significant expenditure by governments, since unanticipated results can emerge, and often inflation remains very low.

There’s another reason we should make all universities fee-free. In effect, we’re investing in the national structure, by producing a highly educated workforce. We’re an inventive nation and our engineers, architects, mathematicians, doctors and physicists are among the vanguard of the world’s best. In the years to come we’ll be exporting expertise and skills. The days of exporting clothes and toys have gone.

Perhaps more controversially, I’d st up a commission to examine the types of courses being offered at degree level. I’m not at all sure that Embroidery qualifies but, oddly, it exists.

We seem to agree that some degrees are more worthwhile than others. You might describe some as “hobby degrees” where students don’t pursue a career (so earn no, or little, salary) afterwards. They then pay nothing towards them, which seems unfair on those who do.

If money was not an issue we would have the best funded health service, education system. social care, police……in the world. I do believe that we need to actually earn money as a nation to produce taxation to fund these. We were bankrupt after WW2 because of the cost of funding the war effort.

Whilst economics seems more of a art (black or red) than a science, i don’t know of any economy that survives by ignoring the need to work (or sell natural resources) to produce taxes.

Having school leavers go straight into higher education has been used by successive governments as a way of keeping down the unemployment figures. I would prefer to see school leavers work for at least part of a year to be eligible for a place. This can help greatly in allowing young people to become more mature and to focus on what they want to do with their lives. Some use a break as an opportunity to accumulate funds to help avoid getting into a life of debt thanks to having to pay university fees. For goodness sake scrap the fees, cut down the number of places and give them to those who are able to demonstrate ability and commitment, otherwise standards are dragged down by having to try and make the best out of the ‘passengers’ who are expecting a degree for attendance – and sometimes not very good attendance.

I think there is plenty of money too, but maybe it’s not shared out very well.

I have noticed that the third sentence of my previous post in this Conversation is open to misinterpretation. It should have said “It occurs to me that we have virtually run out of workers in this country and some further merit-based restrictions on entry to university would be helpful to the economy.

It is worth speaking to people who teach what may appear to be worthless degrees. I was a bit suspicious about degrees with computer games in the title, but having spoken to computer scientists who teach them and others who don’t, I think my concerns were groundless. I do not know about embroidery as a degree subject but maybe that leads to careers in the fashion industry. Clothing manufacture may not be economically viable in the UK but I imagine that there are plenty of opportunities in design.

I would be happy for the government to recover tuition fees by taxation during graduates’ working life.

I saw that but it did seem obvious what you were saying.

Malcolm – Most teaching staff in the field of science are also active in research. The long vacation provides an opportunity to pursue research, attend conferences, write papers, write grant applications, update teaching material, set and mark resits, and so on. If you are teaching subjects with some relation to your research you are likely to be a better lecturer. Three semesters would work where people are not engaged in research.

Indeed so. That is what I meant by backlash. However, 2 year courses would make much better use of facilities, and maybe of staff who did not have such commitments.

I would rather pack the courses with more content to fill the time allocated than shorten them, Malcolm.

Steve I use the same general basic logic but not in ,mathematics , a bringing together of seemingly unrelated data and making logical sense out of it, its down to mental processing and the ability to cognitively understand each individual action in relation to its original purpose but when brought together with other data produces a set piece of data out of variables , you do need to have a wide data base to begin with , used widely by our and the USA intelligence services although I use my brain not massive data holding computers. Scientific knowledge is subject to change but most is durable but cannot answer all questions and is a blend of logic and imagination therefore I base my conclusions on one thing the provable actions in this world that can be linked to motivational behaviour of nations and people. Its called the Truth. You do know there are many people in this world who can do complex maths entirely in their head without using that technique ? As an ex. company secretary my wife could do complicated cash and stock account / money distribution without any mechanical/electronic means , I admit I could not in that department.

Hi Duncan, what you have stated is a way that a website that I use in cyber security works, but it’s US based not UK. They have basically taken degrees in various areas of cyber security and broken them right down to mini courses.
You learn from security advisors via video tutorials, they give you your own notes section, so you can take notes during the lessons and save them. Once you think you’ve done enough of the tutorials (this changes depending on the area of study, as to which Skill you want), you can take the ‘mini-skill’ you initially wanted towards a main degree or certification.
Each Skill Test is the same structure as if you were doing the full course, but with one large difference, the cost!
Everything on the website is totally free, except the Skill Tests which only cost around $10 each (this price includes a free re-test should you not pass the required mark!).

Thanks for that Steve especially with your qualifications some people think I am getting a bit “beyond myself ” in delving deeper into human nature on an International level , but I cant help it my only desire is to give the general public as much information as possible so they have a wider knowledge base to come to opinions on many things and not constricted into a programmed mode put out by government and authorities and even big business . Yes I spend a lot of time talking via the web to Americans and I enjoy it as , if you eliminate the couch potatoes a lot of the intellectual ones actually hold the same views as myself but many are wary of speaking to their neighbours about it and stick to high grade political/tech. websites of which I am a member of and get emails from . I like intellectual conversations and debates it invigorates my mind even in old age.

I expect that you benefitted a great deal from your father’s dedication, Derek. I have met many students who have arrived at university with real desire to get the best out of their time there, thanks to being inspired by their parents, family members or friends. In my case it was my uncle who helped me explore university courses and the range of opportunities available for chemistry graduates.

One of the problems faced by those working in HE is that it takes some much longer than others to adapt to the move from school teaching and to make sure that students have an adequate grounding in A-Level material. Without degree courses specifically designed for the minority of students who could cope, I suspect that two year degrees might not be worthwhile, but I’m prepared to be proved wrong.

I do agree that the four year courses have an important place, though the only ones I had experience of is biomedical science with a hospital placement. In common with other universities, we changed the degree title to include MSc, but the content and duration of the degree course did not change. It may have made the graduates more employable but it did not make much difference to the majority, who were aiming for careers in hospitals.

“I expect that you benefitted a great deal from your father’s dedication, Derek.”

I am sure I have. I have inherited my father’s liking for text books and keep a small but useful selection on my desk at work. Thankfully I’m not alone, when it comes to doing that.

I do wonder if the gradual advent of internet based teaching resources may eventually result in the death of the text book. No doubt this would be welcomed by those “pointy haired managers” who advocate “clear desktop policies” for company security, but without bothering to provide storage space for books and other references.

That sounds familiar. I’ve still got a few textbooks left over from before I retired and the odd one from when I was a student. Nowadays, teaching staff often receive loads of free books in the hope that they will recommend them for their modules. I’m not keen on this because it just puts up the prices that students have to pay. Like my colleagues, I gave away surplus copies.

Publishers started selling books with CDs and DVDs but have moved to online learning resources that are complementary what is in the book. These include tests and other informal assessment and videos that are useful in helping the user to better understand the topic. What I am less keen on is that access may be limited to one year after online registration, so that buying a secondhand book means that the purchaser cannot use these resources. Apart from that, textbooks can be useful for more than one year. Lecturers who adopt a textbook for their module may receive a PowerPoint version of all the images in the book and other resources, all licensed for their use. There is quite a lot of commercial pressure, even if it is not overt.

I am still convinced that textbooks have a place, especially for giving an overview of a topic. On the other hand, electronic resources are searchable and may be updated more frequently. Several years before I retired I was approached by a couple of publishers about putting together customised textbooks that included selected chapters that would be relevant to my modules. It may seem best not to have textbooks that contain irrelevant material but I think there is considerable value in encouraging students to read well beyond what is being covered in a module. That’s a key part of education.

I could tell a few anecdotes about how we dealt with the university equivalent of the ‘pointy-haired managers’ but that would be going too far off topic.

Bogus degrees are a problem, so it may be necessary to check that information provided in application forms and CVs is accurate: https://hedd.ac.uk/aboutHedd.htm

I wonder how many people have been scammed with bogus degrees. We do hear of medical staff from overseas whose credentials are not properly checked, for example. Having a “qualification” that states you have knowledge you do not in fact possess should get found out, sooner or later. But some qualifications are not in this category and can impart status you have not earned, although some may have the requisite ability and escape detection.

It helps to have formal qualifications but many people who do not have very successful careers. A qualification makes it easier for an employer to make an initial assessment and get you on the first rung of the ladder. Eventually your ability and attitude should be the most determining factors.

Thinking about unearned status, what about professional qualifications? Thanks to my academic qualifications I have offered various letters I can put after my name in return for an annual membership subscription to professional bodies. Thanks but no thanks.

Many professions assess knowledge and competence and then permit the use of letters after your name. These recognise achievement in a chosen field. These can be as important or more telling than academic letters.

I’m specifically referring to ones that are granted without any form of assessment to anyone who has the relevant academic qualifications.