Do all unis offer value for money on £9k tuition fees?

IN response to Alex’s points:

1. Cost linked to quality? Well, I know and agree that that is a commonly held belief, but as an “insider” working in education I can tell you with all confidence that it is usually the case that the worst teachers / lecturers work in the best places, simply because they cannot cope with the demands of the others. Not a cast iron rule applying to 100% of staff and 100% of establishments but a pretty good rule of thumb I’m afraid.

2. Very good points Alex and (as i understand it) absolutely correct.

3. True, but in effect what you (and the government) are saying is that the Universities will get broadly the same amount of funding but a much higher amount of it will be recorded as “debt” against individuals rather than government expenditure agains the education budget line. In other words it’s a “trick” to make the government budget look healthier in the very short term to those who either don’t understand it or glance very quickly.

I have to agree with your first point Dave – My long experience in Education mirrors yours.

As far as I’m concerned it is the old Tory smoke and mirrors technique. – It is a very short term strategy – and will alienate a great many young people.

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Absolutely and completely agree with the last Paragraph of Dr’. Aust’s post. And I defy anyone to be able to demonstrate that this is not the case.

I’m less sure about Dr. Aust’s opening paragraph though: my teachers (also in the 80’s) were utterly fantastic in every single case, but many of them quit teaching only a decade or less later because when students started to say “no”, or refused to engage in ‘old school’ teaching (i.e. didactic), they found that they could not longer cope and could not engage these students. My own experience as a teacher and later sixth form college middle manager and now senior manager with close liaison with a number of universities, is that teachers in ‘tougher’ establishments, at all levels and age ranges, are outstanding (in general) but that teachers in places with a better reputation (whether deemed deserved or not) generally are not prepared to do any more than the bare minimum work and dismiss students who are slightly more needy or challenging as “useless” and give up on them.

If I was a student or a parent seeing fees of any magnitude being racked up against my name as a debt to repay, I would not want to have any of the latter type of teacher involved in my (or my offspring’s) education.

With respect to the thing about “degrees should only take 2 yrs”, one has to be a bit careful. Many Universities outside Oxbridge now operate a 30 weeks-in-attendance year, with 15 week semesters, typically 12 wks teaching + 3 wks testing. It may SOUND like one could plausibly add a a 3rd semester (45 weeks total leaving 7 for breaks), but it is actually not so clear it could be done. At present, with 3 wk breaks at Christmas/New Year and at Easter (paralleling school holidays – note these are breaks for STUDENTS, with most STAFF still at work), there is only at most a 16 weeks gap in the Summer (actually it is several weeks less, as exams meetings and degree grading occur after the end of the formal teaching semester in June, and “fresher’s week” precedes the start of the academic year in September). So adding a 3rd 15 wk “Summer” semester would mean no Summer holidays, unless one shortened the Christmas and Easter breaks. But currently, students typically complain these breaks are too SHORT, not too long.

Another issue is that within the existing Summer break many Universities are also quite busy the last fortnight in August and first wk in September running and grading resit exams. The only time Universities are really free of students is from mid-June to mid-August. This is also when people go on holiday (though rarely for more than 2-3 wks, whatever you may have heard).

The biggest problem, though, is that Summer is also the core research time for staff, at least at the research-intensive Universities. Research, remember, is anywhere between 25 and 75% of a top University’s “business” (as in “income”). If people also want TEACHING from eminent scholars (and the position of the research-intensive Univs at the top of the pecking order for undergrad admissions suggest they do), then these scholars have to have research time. Otherwise they will simply decamp elsewhere. Pay is far less of a motivator for academics moving between institutions than are facilities and time to pursue their own scholarship.

Looking at what is happening to the sector, I think there is a chance that some of the post-92 institutions may move to 3-semester years, and possibly to 2 yr intensive undergrad degrees. But I will be flatly amazed if any of the “old” Universities do.

First Year – As a science lecturer who chose to retire early I would like to comment on a few of the points you have raised.

I agree to a large extent with your comments regarding fancy buildings and poor equipment. Part of the problem is that money is allocated for different purposes and that may not even be under the control of the university. There seems to be even more pressure to have impressive buildings now that most universities are charging £9k annual tuition fees. Good teaching staff and competent technicians should keep equipment in good working order, even if it is not new. Lab equipment is built to a much better standard than the average consumer stuff. With large first year classes and different students studying different modules there is no opportunity for students to repeat practical work, so everything has to work first time and that takes careful preparation by teaching and support staff. I was incredibly fortunate in having this support.

Your department should have a student-staff committee or other formal way of making teaching staff and the head of department aware of shortcomings. I ran one of these committees and it was our aim to sort out problems as soon as possible. It was great to hear students report a serious problem with module xxx and say that this had already been resolved. A common problem was that there were not enough copies of books in the library and the lecturers had (carelessly) not though about this or even been told of the problem. The solution is simply to buy more books and/or restrict the loan period, both of which can be done very promptly.

Students are expected to work together and not just on their own, and the best way of doing this is usually to meet up at the university whenever there is an opportunity and on days with no classes. The big difference between when I was a student (early 70s) and now is that we had plenty of time to work together because no-one was working other than during the vacations. Doing paid work during the semester has done wonders for confidence and interpersonal skills of students but many are not working effectively with fellow students.

In large departments it is impossible to give one-to-one support for students on a regular basis. What I encouraged students on my modules to do was to discuss problems with others and to come to see me if they still had a problem. On a module of 250 first year students I had about 10 who would regularly come to discuss problems and were generally prepared to help others with similar problems, either in person or via discussion boards that I had set up online. Where I received an email enquiry I would post an answer so that everyone could see it, if appropriate, so that everyone could have the same help.

There is considerable pressure to teach throughout the year. One of the main problems (certainly in science) is that the long vacation gives teaching staff the opportunity to get down to doing research, attending conferences, writing grant applications and papers, updating their lecture material and planning new teaching to meet the demands of students. Doing research is an important way of keeping up to date with teaching and without this, lecturers would soon become stale and unmotivated. Some students are actually very grateful for the vacations, which allow them to earn money and pay off debts or just have a break from their studies.

I can very much sympathise with you about what is often called ‘death by PowerPoint’. Younger lecturers tend to make better use of it and sometimes even cope with the challenges of uncooperative equipment in front of a large audience. Despite the complaints, I was aware of more complaints from students about those lecturers who did not use PowerPoint.

I believe that there is scope for a significant decrease in tuition fees but the argument is that any university that charges less will be seen as a second-rate university. 🙁

I think you will find the second and third years far more worthwhile. Do find out about the different ways of interacting with staff. Provided that you make criticism constructive, I think you will find that most of your lecturers will be happy to help. If the body language is wrong – perhaps a pained expression – perhaps try again at a different time.

Sorry – that was not supposed to be a lecture. 🙂