Tipping should be performance related

I hate both tipping and negotiating a discount. Let’s remove the embarrassment and uncertainty – either pay the price advertised or go elsewhere. Keep it simple.

Pay staff properly so that they are not dependent on tips. If food or service is not up to standard then make a complaint, or ask for a partial refund, or don’t go there again.

I only tip if I like the service – If it is indifferent – I don’t tip and remove the “discretionary” amount from the bill. If it is bad – I complain. If the food is also bad – I refuse to pay. I’ve done this all my life. It is why it is called a service charge.

I have always been aware the “tip” is usually shared – and it always seemed fair to me – The food preparation is over half the pleasure in a meal – The quality of waiting is the other part.

I used to go out prepared to pay for a service.- My poor pension rather precludes the idea of a meal out. One meal out is probably costs three or more times my weekly food “allowance”. I used to enjoy tipping to show my appreciation of the service given.

I’m with Richard on this one, I’m not on a pension though 🙂

Quite un-british to complain though, I for one love to see them squirm when they find out that their terrible service and food bluff have been called 🙂

I only tip very rarely (whether in Britain or elsewhere in Europe), and only when EXCEPTIONAL, beyond the call-of-duty, service is provided. In a pub/restaurant for a meal, I’m buying the food and it’s delivery to the table. The costs of doing so are down to the owner and his staff. The tendency to include a 10% or whatever mark-up is difficult, but it’s usually mentioned on the menu. If you don’t like that, go somewhere else to eat.

Ditto taxis. If I’m just driven – no tip. If the driver gets out of the car to help with my luggage I’d probably not look for the change.

I have no problem tipping good service – if there is a service charge I will still tip all be it a small amount. I dont like percentages as this does not measure up – for example the standard UK 10% is fine for meals up to say £100 to £200 but I recently had to pay a meal bill of nearly £1000 – to add an extra £100 in tips would be disproportionate even though the service was exemplory. I left a £20 tip whihc I felt to be a fair amount to be split two way (always leave cash if I can!).
I visit the US often and do realy baulk at the almost demand of 20%! But I got talkin to a waitress who in my mind was ‘difficult and surly’ and she explained that she hated serving Europeans as we did not tip properly – I did explain that with her manner what did she expect – but she explained that she is taxed by the IRS by till receipts and if someone does not leave a tip or it is low she is considered to have actually earned the 20% by the IRS and consequently taxed on the amount – So all is not clear and fair.
My advice dont tip with service charge included and only tip whay YOU think the service is worth and that could be nothing!

Had a recent cruise holiday where the company (Italian) not only put a 15% charge on every purchase made on board (they said it was for just bar purchases but it wasn’t), they then tried to add a compulsory service charge of $9 a day per person. (or 5E, dep on where the ship was) Needless to say they didn’t get it. Especially as neither the food nor the entertainment was of a standard we are used to.

As a regular visitors to France, we find the service in restaurantrs and cafe’s, generally very good.
Maybe it’s because we try to order in French, and being polite to the server, does get the same response.
As a rule of thumb, with a bill of around 45/55 Euros, we tip 5 Euros. In a cafe for a couple of coffees the
odd change, but at least 30/40 cents.
I should clarify, this question of waiter attitude, does exclude Paris, where both customer’s and waiter’s
generally deserve each other!

I would have a lot of respect for an establishment that advertised that all of their prices ‘included’ a 10% tip shared amongst the staff so that the price you see is the price you pay. They could also include a proviso that if you were disappointed with the service you could ask for this 10% to be refunded. The system at the moment means that people who are against tipping or are just being cheap are being subsidised by those who feel they have to tip.

Maybe tipping should evolve to be like the performance-related bonuses that CEOs and bankers enjoy.
A service charge could be shared out in proportion to the number of areas that the customer “ticks” on the bill e.g. Waiter; Kitchen; Reception: Bar; Cleaners – or Charity! The message will get through to managements if certain areas are never ticked.
Money is a great motivator to improve performance, but the obligation to personally decide a tip (rather than a set service charge) should be removed wherever possible.

My son in law {italian] never tips in restaurants. If he is very satisfied he might leave a couple of euros or small change if paying by cash.

Oh and US waiters always forgive mingy Brits. They understand we are ignorant of the ways and whyfores of tipping. Or they just love our accents!

I would have to disagree that service (and food) is better in the USA. I don’t have any particular complaints myself (I wouldn’t say it’s any better or worse than Europe in general), but know a few people who’ve been literally hounded into paying a tip in the USA, even when the service has been bad – the waiting staff just expected the tip to be paid, whatever the level of service (and that was on top of a service charge!). Yes, in the USA you may well get better service if they know that you’re going to tip better, but I object to having to “bribe” the waiter to give me a decent service – good service should be part of the whole “package” of going to eat in a particular restaurant, so if the service is good, then I would want to go again.

For me, I’d have to agree that Japan is best – it has the best service I’ve experienced in anywhere in the world, and no tipping! You can really relax and enjoy your meal without having to worry about how much you need to pay for a tip.

I was told by the waiter that they did not receive the service charge and that it went direct to the owner of the bar so I never pay this charge and prefer to leave a tip as and when I feel it is deserved. But I do wonder why sometimes as they will be paid at least the minimum wage which is higher than my pension, and when I worked I didnt get a tip on top of my wage for doing my job.

A lot of the staff depend on these tips to have a living wage. If you leave cash it is shared amongst the staff. If it’s included in the bill, the business takes it and gives a portion of it to the staff and uses some of it to pay their costs!

@Susan
The voluntary service charge belongs wholly to the restaurant, not to the staff.

Yes you are right, many people are paid poorly – it is only the restaurant industry that is proud of that fact and uses customers to be the go-betweens in this wage dispute between wait staff and employer. The customer is seen as a cash cow, ever ready to donate to the restaurant.

Ninety-five percent of employtees are paid the rate for the job. Almost alone are wait staff who are paid according to customer numbers and customer spend at each and every transcaction.

It is tempting for the restaurateur to keep the voluntary service charge and not give it to the staff.

Cash tips ensure [almost!] the cash goes to the staff. And in Europe Australia New Zealand and more,about 3 % is left as just a thank you.

In those countries the staff are paid the rate for the job.

Tips are a Totally Inadequate Pay System

I see no valid reason to tip . I enter into a contract with the restaurant or other establishment to provide me with a meal . As I would not be allowed to get it from the kitchem myself this contract should also include someone to bring it to me . I expect the meal to be cooked properly and the service to be pleasant and efficient. If these conditions are not fulfilled I feel complaints are in order. Tipping only gives the restaurant owners excuses not to pay their staff a proper wage . Waiting on and service should be seen as the honourable and worthwhile occupations they are and the staff employed should not be reliant on hand outs and charity.

It is outstandingly unfair to automatically add a charge to a customer’s bill without their authorisation. That’s what happens to the, so called, voluntary or discretionary service charge.

It’s my money but it lands on the restaurants bill – there is no item to account for this charge, nothing consumed by me.

Not only is it unfair, but it is not proportionate. An easy job for the restaurant – a short sentence at the bottom of the menu, the small print I never noticed. But I have to claw it by asking for it to be taken off my bill at the end of the meal. Only the restaurant industry tries to embarrass it’s customers. So most of us go along with it, justifying it to ourselves with a ‘they’re paid poorly’ and a ‘they work hard’.

The proprietor doesn’t seem embarrassed that his staff are paid poorly so why should I be embarrassed to get my money off the bill to donate how I wish.

I always, without fail, ask for the voluntary, optional or discretionary [or whatever fancy term is used] service charge to be taken off my bill.

It’s my right to spend how I choose. It’s easy – try it – consumer rights are mine and yours – we deserve to decide.

After all I am only doing what the restaurant invites me to do -opt in or opt out. Out thanks – then I’ll give how I want.

@Nick Cheek

I believe we should get the restaurant industry into the 21st century and pay the rate for the job. It’s very sad that we encourage ‘fair trade’ somewhere far away, but here under our noses we watch employers in the restaurant industry treat waitstaff badly.

So what is wrong with trying to emulate Japan,or France or Spain, Australia. Is it because we are still snobs and we want and like to control the under-stairs staff? I hope not, but in Australia the relationship between wait staff and customer is equal; they like equality in work – why don’t we? Why do restaurants enjoy this perpetual wage dispute?

It is the irresponsibility of the restaurant industry that angers me. It turns to cash cow customers for the unpaid wages. It looks down on it’s staff in the same way as far-away garment manufacturers do, the ‘unfair trade ones’.

Nick, when you refer to ‘performance related’ you are not referring to the employer rewarding staff through a company system. You are referring to customers deciding the wages of each employee all the time. That is pay or punish.

We don’t do that. The company knows the targets and standard that staff are trained for and the company gets the increase in turnover and profit when customers return satisfied. Customers don’t interfere in pay packets. Perhaps tempting; when we are kept hanging on the phone we can track down the culprit and reduce their pay for that day. No, it only happens to wait staff.

And it should not happen to them. That’s why the Japanese and Australian way is right, honest, fair and equal.

Nick, help publicise the stingyness of our restaurant industry so they will pay in the normal way and we can relax with our fiends doing something so simple – eating, instead of tampering with paypackets.

The Japanese do indeed regard it as an insult to tip but they do recognise that in UK, for eg, it is customary to do so. I have taken Japanese tour parties out on a couple of occasions and both times their UK-based Japanese tour leader has spent the last half hour of the run home discussing my tip. I know this from the constant repetition of ‘Chris-san’ and the word ‘tip’ in her spiel.

But imagine my astonishment when, after the clients have bowed and waved me goodbye, she has split MY tip down the middle and walked off with half!

Clearly she has learned to swallow this insult in good old British fashion.

Please don’t assume that just because one restaurant owner keeps the money it will be the same across the industry, it is not. Always ask your waiter. When you pay for a meal, you pay for good food at a nice table and someone to wash up for you. You do not pay for your coat taken, a paper bought for you, someone to notice it is your birthday (and make a fuss or know to be discreet), someone to entertain your kids, sweep up the raisins you allowed them to launch all over the floor, someone to understand your needs ie business meeting, romantic meal, anniversary, birthday, funeral, graduation etc etc and then help you to have an appropriately fantastic experience. You pay for a meal, what waiters provide is memories (or at least I try to), and a relaxing stress free experience. This is what you tip for. So please don’t generalise all waiters and make your decision on this. Yes I get paid rubbish but watching my customers have a great night and being a part of that in whatever way is fit makes it all worth it for me. We are not all the same.