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Scam watch: fake HMRC lawsuit threat

We’ve heard about a new scam where fraudsters pose as HMRC in an attempt to steal your personal info. Here’s what to watch out for…

We recently got this letter from a member:

I got a message on my answering machine telling me HMRC was filing a lawsuit against me, and that I should press 1 to speak to my case handler.

The caller had not withheld their number so I called them back. There was no reply for a while, then a voicemail with an electronic male North American accent said the person I was calling was not available and I should leave my details.

At this point I hung up. HMRC has no reason to sue me. If it did, I’m sure it wouldn’t contact me in this way.

I would expect an official letter detailing the reasons for the lawsuit and what initial action I would be expected to take.

Our advice

You were right to hang up. We’ve had more than 100 people report this scam to us and it’s only getting more prolific.

Variations of the scam include threatening someone with arrest or legal action if they don’t call back.

The scam is designed to scare you into returning the fraudster’s call, when you’ll then be cornered into handing over personal or banking details.

HMRC would never contact you out of the blue. If it needs to get in touch with you, it will normally write to you and quote your tax reference number.

We’ve informed Action Fraud and HMRC so this can be investigated. If you get more calls in the future, you should do the same.

Comments
Member

As always this is an original US scam but again ,as per usual US citizens are given more help here is what the US government says-

IRS Imposter Scams
IRS imposter scams occur when someone contacts you pretending to work for the IRS. The imposter may contact you by phone, email, postal mail, or even a text message. There are two common types of scams:

Tax collection – You receive a phone call or letter, claiming that you owe taxes. They will demand that you pay the amount immediately often with a prepaid debit card or wire transfer. They may even threaten to arrest you if you don’t pay.

Report IRS Imposter Scams
Contact the Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration (TIGTA) if you believe that an IRS imposter has contacted you. Report IRS imposter scams online or by calling TIGTA at 1-800-366-4484. Forward email messages that claim to be from the IRS to phishing@irs.gov

Again US government .gov –
Reporting scams to federal agencies helps them collect evidence for lawsuits against people committing these scams. However, federal agencies don’t investigate individual cases of telephone scams.

Report telephone scams to the Federal Trade Commission, either online or by phone at 1-877-382-4357. This is the primary government agency that collect scam complaints.
Report all robocalls and unwanted telemarketing calls to the Do Not Call Registry.
Report caller ID spoofing to the Federal Communications Commission either online or by phone at 1-888-225-5322.

The USA has a long list of various scams some of which will move to the UK.

Member

I cannot see what particular help to the targets or victims of scams is being offered in the USA. All the US government is saying is report it to the Internal Revenue Service, the Federal Trade Commission, etc. so they can collect evidence for lawsuits against people committing the scams. How is that any different to reporting scams in the UK to Action Fraud which is a unit of the City of London police, the primary fraud and corruption investigation and prosecuting authority in the UK? I don’t think we need to take many lessons from America which is rife with corruption, fraud, embezzlement, and exploitation that the law enforcement agencies there cannot seem to get a grip on despite their apparent legal powers.

Member

“Action Fraud ” John ? have you missed the many convos on banking fraud here where posts are filled with – Action Fraud ?—useless -lost £***** + still not got justice -say they cant help anymore -irate/angry/upset of -you name the shire/town .

I can supply victories for the FBI etc in catching those scammers as banking fraud is a Federal offense .

As for corruption in the USA yes its full of it there but people in glass houses etc this is one ,if not the top money laundering countries in the world.
Edinburgh/City of London rank high.

Member

No, Duncan, I haven’t missed the comments about the inability of Action Fraud to recover people’s lost money – but it was never intended to do that. What it can do is go after the perpetrators if it can find them, which is no easier here than in the US. We tend to get all the negative stories in Which Conversation? which builds up a false impression. The fact is, however bitter a pill it is to swallow, that in most fraud cases the victim has done something or said something that has enabled the scam to take place. That does not in any way mitigate the crime but it means that recovery is almost impossible. Changing the systems is the only effective way of stopping the scams but that can often be but a temporary respite.

I was not referring to money-laundering as I have not seen any evidence one way or the other. Obviously, financial centres will always be the chief locations for conversion and concealment but I expect that is a tiny proportion of all the transactions that take place in London and Edinburgh. Since the Financial Conduct Authority was set up I think the situation is now more or less under control, but money always attracts the dishonest. It is easy to make allegations but incredibly difficult to prove them and punish the offenders.

Member

I concur, John. There’s a wealth of advice from both official bodies and voluntary organisations in the UK and I believe we’re well served. That’s not to say more couldn’t be done, but these scams date back a long time.

Far from them being ‘original US scams’ they date back in recorded history to 1900 BC, when lively scams using rigged scales were very much in fashion.

Fast forward to Rome and in merry slave markets the slave you paid for in an auction wasn’t always the one that arrived in the post.

The Middle ages were no better, where a very neat scam involved paying for a piglet in a bag. The pig-pedlar displayed a healthy happy pig for all to see, and when you parted with your groats you were given a bag full of cat. Interestingly, that’s where the expression buying a pig in a poke originated.

But this current scam, the HMRC one, again originated around 3000 years ago. In ancient Egypt supplicants were anxious for good luck and to edge the dice in their favour would often pay for a mini-tomb with their pet cat dried and mummified within. There was good money in these but when researchers from Manchester Museum and the University of Manchester used a CT scanner and X-ray machine that would normally be used on children, to see beneath the wrappings without damaging the ancient specimens inside they found around half were completely empty.

To aggravate matters scrolls claiming to be from Pharaoh’s tax collection depot would claim the scroll recipient would be subject to torture and possibly death if they couldn’t pay the appropriate Mummy tax on such a deal.

Scams, therefore, are nothing to do with the US but are as old as mankind. I’m pretty sure Ug bitterly regretted buying his woman from Kug and dragging her back to the cave, only to find out she was far older than he’d been told. When he sought the traditional retribution he then found out his club was riddled with woodworm, so he clearly wasn’t having a good epoch.

It’s sad, but the only thing that has changed is the ubiquity of communication devices, making it a lot easier to fool more people.

Member

It certainly isn’t easy to prove John but the internet has the ability to provide files of transactions that are kept hidden .
Of course I cant post them, I (and Which ? ) would have a City Advocate down on us in a second but I do have the files (off computer ) in another SSD .
So yes its hard to prove but its even harder to make public in this country .
I was attacked last week for having the nerve to criticize a certain US “legal ” policy aimed at a female ,now resolved, on a US website.

Member

duncan, I understand your fear of possible retribution but there seems no point in storing incriminating files if you make no use of them. May I suggest you leak them to an organisation that may be interested? I’d suggest Private Eye.

I sometimes think there are areas where Which? could collaborate with PEYE, who carry out some very worthwhile investigations and offer rational commentaries. But there seems a wish for many organisations to remain somewhat insular, even from their own Members.

Member

“the inability of Action Fraud to recover people’s lost money –… was a comment made above in relation to scams.
The Guardian headline June ’18 reads; “ 95% of UK burglaries and robberies not solved, data suggests“.
We probably need to pay for a lot more resource to tackle it more effectively. Those fortunate enough to have insurance may get some of the value of their possessions back, but all we insured folk pay for that through our premiums. Perhaps we could insure against online fraud and scams, but be prepared to have to prove you did not contribute to the loss.

Member

With all due respect to your accumulated fraud intelligence, Duncan, this Conversation is not about money-laundering but the sort of scams that ordinary upright citizens are prey to every day at the end of their telephone line or through their e-mail account in the worrying belief that the HMRC is after them. No wonder they sometimes give too much away and get exploited. These are hard crimes where people are visibly suffering and the distress is palpable. I don’t exonerate money-laundering but its personal impact is negligible.

Member

Morning all,

This is veering off topic, so let's leave this discussion here. Thanks,

Oscar

Member
DerekP says:
29 January 2019

Scams can involve many different topics, but a very common formal is a “hurt and rescue” scenario in which non-free help is offered as a remedy a made-up problem.

We can fight can in many different ways as, for example, outlined here by Jim Browning:

youtube.com/watch?v=83y0_ypA3Iw

Member
John R says:
2 February 2019

Since Insurance companies are likely to have less net losses if both police and other agencies have more targetted manpower, I would like to see them contribute towards increased police surveillance.

Member
Robert Pemberton says:
2 February 2019

Robert Pemberton
I live in Orpington and I am continually getting recorded phone messages from an American sounding female regarding my internet connection where she is saying that my broadband will be terminated and inferring they are from BT. They ask me to press keys to be put through to someone regarding my account otherwise they will cut me off because of non payment. I know this to be rubbish and just hang up I am never tempted to contact anyone. This is happening more often and it seems I cannot stop them ringing.

Member
DerekP says:
2 February 2019

That scam has its own conversation here:

conversation.which.co.uk/technology/bt-phone-scam-microsoft-technical-support-computer-pc-scams/

Member
Rob Broadhurst says:
2 February 2019

Similar to the call threatening to sue you, there is another scam doing the rounds that only leaves a message for you to call back. It is a very real person and they never speak if you answer the phone. The message asks you to call them back on a UK number. when that call is answered, you are kept hanging on whilst the scammers make their money by the extremely high call charges you are paying (without knowing). I don’t know what the charges are but suspect they are north of £100 a minute.

Remember, for an HMRC call to be genuine, they will ask you to provide them with confirmation of certain items of personal information. If you refuse to give these, a genuine HMRC caller will not continue the call. The information is NOT bank related.

Member
DerekP says:
2 February 2019

Which? has a web page about similar scams here:

which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/premium-rate-number-scams

Member
Eleonore Kofman says:
2 February 2019

I had a similar attempt. The worst is that when I tried to report on the Action Fraud line, it didn’t work. In the end I gave up.

Member
DerekP says:
2 February 2019

I also found their website hard to use this week.

For one thing, I think they count users who’ve been approached by scammers as “victims” not “witnesses” but if you merely been approached but not suffered any consequences it doesn’t seem obvious that you should be seeing yourself as victim.

I have had problems getting the website to accept a contact phone number – which it needed for a full record and submission. In this case, it just wouldn’t accept the victim’s mobile phone number as valid data.

Member

They have a notice on their website saying some people are experiencing problems Derek .
You will be “pleased” to know you are communicating with the latest AI robot everything has to be perfect in your report.
You are dealing with a Texas company and while the website is “secure ” that is relative it isn’t the top level of security which is shocking for a public crime website .
They use third parties .

In the US the equivalent is really secure .

Member
Derek Putley says:
2 February 2019

Duncan – I saw that message too, but it made no sense in the context of my problems.

Member

Action Fraud is actually a division of NFIB who are not police officers but info gatherers and I was right run by the USA .
While they can hide or abbreviate the public from finding out, their “trail ” cant be hidden to observant investigation.
Just imagine the uproar in the US if it was found out that the UK was running their police reporting services. Already US legislation was brought in to prevent any attempt by foreign governments to interfere with US legal legislative policy .
The only way the US can legally get info on US citizens abroad by spying is asking GCHQ to do it.

Member

https://www.actionfraud.police.uk/what-is-action-fraud
Action Fraud is the UK’s national reporting centre for fraud and cybercrime where you should report fraud if you have been scammed, defrauded or experienced cyber crime in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

We provide a central point of contact for information about fraud and financially motivated internet crime. People are scammed, ripped off or conned everyday and we want this to stop.

The service is run by the City of London Police working alongside the National Fraud Intelligence Bureau (NFIB) who are responsible for assessment of the reports and to ensure that your fraud reports reach the right place. The City of London Police is the national policing lead for economic crime.

The City of London Police’s National Fraud Intelligence Bureau is using millions of reports of fraud to identify serial offenders, organised crime gangs and established and emerging crime types.

This may have been confused with NFIB.com?
“What Does NFIB Do?
NFIB is the voice of small business. Learn how NFIB and our members work to keep America’s small businesses strong and independent.

Member

Yes malcolm I know the official spiel but that doesn’t change the fact that the actual organisation is American run .
Dont know anything about the small business version although I am a staunch supporter of UK small businesses as long as they are legitimate.
Some websites tried to hide the details of the organisation.

HMG has much past form on this I visited a so called “RAF ” base in Scotland , even in the telephone books it was labelled “RAF ” even with British police there , guess what ? it was actually run as a US spy base ,spying on Russia , even talked to some American personnel as they visited an Arbroath supermarket .

Member

duncan, would you provide the link that show that Action Fraud / NFIB is American run so we all know the situation.

Member

The NFIB analyses information from a large number of organisations within the public and private sectors, including industry, commerce and government sources. Investigators from both law enforcement and private sector backgrounds analyse the raw intelligence for distinct patterns of fraudulent activity and behaviour. When patterns are spotted, such as an identifying a persistent offender or linked activities, intelligence reports are sent to relevant regional police or law enforcement organisations for investigation, which may involve enquiries throughout the UK and overseas. The public, as well as businesses and the police can report fraud to the NFIB using the national fraud reporting service, called Action Fraud.
About 90 investigators, who are not police officers, work at the NFIB in the City of London.[8][9]

Action Fraud is the UK’s national reporting service for fraud and financially-motivated cyber crime.[10][11] It was transferred to the City of London Police after the National Fraud Authority was closed in March 2014.[12][4] Action Fraud has a website and call centre which provide information about different types of fraud and offer prevention advice. Individuals and businesses can report fraud (such as forwarding scam emails for inspection) to Action Fraud on their website or by telephone. When a fraud is reported to Action Fraud, victims are given a crime reference number and their case is passed on to the National Fraud Intelligence Bureau.[13]

There were about 85 call-handling staff working on the Action Fraud helpline in November 2014 which fell to 70 by December 2015.[14] US firm brought in by City of London police to run Action Fraud helpline despite concerns. This increased to about 80 staff in 2018.[8]

(Information on Action Frauds location should not be posted on this website)

Heard of Moxie (USA ) malcolm , they get the info —US firm brought in to run Action Fraud —despite concerns —–as said above . Plenty of posters on TP saying the same thing as some posters here

I got my tracking info on them using apps malcolm and traced them back to the USA.

Member

You don’t give a link. It is from Wiki It says a US firm was brought in to run the helpline. Why this was necessary I don’t know but probably better than using Serco or Capita. However, as far as I can see, running a helpline is a long way from Action Fraud “ being run by the USA” …..but I’m happy to be proven wrong.

Member
DerekP says:
2 February 2019

But when the only tool you have is a hammer, it is easy to see everything as a nail

Member

I don’t know why anyone would want to question the fact that the UK’s Action Fraud organisation is an internally-operated service currently provided by the City of London police force. Certain technical functionalities might be serviced by an American company but that would be under a proper contract setting out the scope and reach of its activities. It is for the protection of UK citizens, not primarily a matter of national security although it might have useful spin-offs in that direction.

Member

Its bigger than you think John and the spread of it isn’t confined to the police or official bodies.

The City of London is a law unto itself and has to be due to its actions .

Reach of its activities ? it certainly does “reaching” all the way to an American company which is better known as a data provider for third parties to use for financial benefit .
Any kosher public body that puts the public first would not allow third -party transmission of data to a foreign country.

As Derek has provided a bit of social philosophy here is-

The ultimate tyranny in a society is not control by martial law .
It is control by the psychological manipulation of consciousness,
through which reality is defined ,so that those who exist within do not even realise that they are in prison .

Member

I note your opinions, Duncan. And literary quotations are also only opinions and prove nothing, especially when they are not relevant to the context. You could at least credit the author, Barbara Marciniak, when you rely on it for your argument.

The City of London police force is not a law unto itself. It is answerable to the Home Secretary in the same way as any other police force and is ultimately accountable to Parliament. It is subject to the laws on policing, human rights, and other legislation. I have seen no evidence that it transmits data on Action Fraud cases to a foreign country – and so what if it did? With proper controls that is not necessarily worse than keeping it in the UK or in another European state.

Member

..and this is how we go wildly off topic. From discussing HMRC fraudulent lawsuit threats we’re off, once again, to the US of A, threading through subverted control, secret messaging and finally to the words of someone who makes her living from the truly gullible by suggesting she’s channelling Aliens and their messages.

Member

Looking back through this Convo it never seems to have been on topic. It started with a post about the US and I’m pushed to see any meaningful comment about HMRC (a quick glance, so may have missed it).

It may be the topic is much too narrow for a dedicated Convo. It is these sorts of Convos that often then wander off down another, related, alley. A Convo on what the authorities can and can’t, will and won’t, do to combat fraud and recover lost funds and/or bring the perpetrators to justice seems a more useful discussion.

Member

I agree it was shoved off topic with the initial post, but the header also failed to pose a question. Most headers ask a specific question, which serves to provide a fenced pathway for future contributions.

Member

Had 2 of these calls today from slightly different numbers, second went dead when I answered but looked up the number and others reporting it as the HMRC scam.

The recorded message sounded a lot more realistic and threatening than on here:
https://www.which.co.uk/news/2018/10/hmrc-scam-voicemails-how-to-spot-this-new-tax-scam/

They want you to press 1 to talk to someone otherwise a warrant will be issued for your arrest. Quite a few people admit to pressing 1.