Bank notes that are built to last

I resent the implication about _”old white males ” which is permanently taken up by our advertising media who are composed of the 2/3 % minority groups and are totally opposed to white males .

[Sorry Duncan, your comment has been edited to align with our Community Guidelines. Thanks, mods]

I don’t think we should have politicians on banknotes.
Concerned about the sticking together issue.

I quite agree Julia most should be strung up as they say in the US . The problem is Churchill is an “icon ” and is credited with “saving ” this country from defeat from Germany . Much as I dont like his politics I did like his drive while in power to get the country geared up for war, appointing Beaverbrook in the mold of Albert Speer ,although I know this started secretly years earlier . It certainly cost him a stroke but anybody coming out with – “we will fight them on the beaches ” etc has my temporary vote as even if I totally disagree with what my country is doing I couldnt betray it and if invaders landed I would defend it. Labour was voted in after the war and the NHS etc got going .

To add to the complication, although practically it doesn’t seem to matter day today, I found this in Martin Lewis’s website:

True or false? Scottish notes aren’t legal tender.
– Are Scottish bank notes legal tender? No, not even in Scotland, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be used. It simply means most people don’t understand what legal tender is (see below). Bank of England notes are only legal tender in England and Wales, meaning there are no legal tender notes in Scotland at all.
– What is legal tender? It simply means if you have a court order against you for money, the person you owe cannot turn down your settlement if you offer to pay by legal tender.
[…]
– Let me finish with a quick word to English shopkeepers – please accept Scottish and Northern Irish notes. While not legal tender, they are UK Parliament-approved legal currency, which makes them a perfectly acceptable way to pay.

Thank you Sophie for that additional information. I had not realised that Scotland had no concept of legal tender and that even Bank of England notes can [technically] be rejected in settlement. I think the Scottish and Northern Irish banks need to do something really canny to get the English shopkeepers on their side and issue banknotes to the value of £4.99, £9.99, and £19.99. This would save shopkeepers money in carrying change and save the banks a lot of coin-handling.

Re £4.99, £9.99 & £19.99 – just for interest…

I’d always assumed that goods were priced at £4.99 because it “sounds” cheaper than £5. But I’ve heard that an additional reason is because an item priced at £4.99 will be paid for with a £5 note. The shopkeeper then has to ring it into the till to get the penny change – instead of simply stuffing it into his/her back pocket.

So “shop assistants” might be pleased, but “shop owners” might not.

Most customers do not regard the transaction as complete until they are given a till receipt in case they wish to return the goods or just keep as proof of purchase. I always ask for the till receipt in a chain shop even if buying just a newspaper.

:0) cheers, malcolm r.

If we leave the EU? Why, what’s going on? :0)

The real issue in my wallet is whether they will be moth-proof and how long they will survive in the dark.

Yes, wavechange :0)

My practical worry with these new plastic notes is them sticking together, though I’ll have to have more than one at a time to rub together.

Brilliant Sophie!

The fun’s over Ian. Banknotes will be made of bi-axially oriented polypropylene.

Paper banknotes that are past it can be shredded, composted and used in your garden, thus helping towards food bills.

Plastic bank notes that are worn out can be incinerated, thus directly paying for your home-heating (cheaper than the big 6?)

Thanks, Malcolm, not least for a highly informative diversion to find out what one earth bi-axially oriented polypropylene is. I discovered it can’t be glued very easily and needs to be welded, instead (sure there’s a joke in there, somewhere ).

I suppose “bi-axially oriented” is what I would have called cross-ply. With a completely different derivation, the building material Sterling Board is properly known as Oriented Strand Board and is made up of wood shavings randomly arranged in overlapping layers, compressed, and resin bonded. Having had to iron numerous banknotes after a turn in the washing machine I was at first a bit worried about the effect of a hot iron on a polymer material, but I gather the new banknotes’ properties include the fact that they can easily survive the laundry process and be just as serviceable as before. Whether they will survive tumble-drying is another matter.

I think polypropylene melts at 130C. So unless you have an Indesit drier you should be OK John. No doubt there will be jokes about “laundered” and “hot” money.

The analogy with OSB is quite appropriate I think. Quote: “Biaxially oriented” means that the film is stretched in two different directions. Orientation brings about several changes in the film, such as lower elongation (harder to stretch), higher tensile strength for a given thickness, greater stiffness, improved optical properties, and improved barrier to water/gases.

This stretching occurs after the film emerges from the extrusion machine.

Are extrusion machines going to replace all the ATM’s, Malcolm? If so they could print the banknotes in any denomination required by the customer. Let’s cut out the next technological step and go straight for bespoke banknotes on demand.

I’m all for a suitable home printer John – then, like the BoE, I can indulge in some quantitative easing of my own.

Presumably as the material is already stretched as far as it can be we wont be able to make our money go any further?

I think a five-pound note in those days had several times the surface area of the present miserable coupon, and the new one will be even smaller.

I was reminded about the size of the old penny when I was given one in exchange for my entrance fee at a recent visit to Sandtoft Trolley Bus Museum. For our younger readers, 240 pennies was equivalent to a paper pound note. Had the size of our notes and coins gone down as fast as their value they might now have been the size of confetti.

The Bank of England is prudent. It saw no need to replace the paper notes before it became necessary.

In answer to your second paragraph, David, I am prepared to offer a secure collection service to anyone who wishes to part with any one-pound notes, and indeed any five-pound notes that are becoming a burden. This offer is free of any necessity to accept coin or other negotiable instrument in exchange.

There’s a general principle with coins that, for example, a 2p coin weighs exactly the same as two 1p coins. This is so that those handling large amounts of cash can simply weigh copper coins (mixed 1p and 2p) instead of counting them. If this principle were carried over to £5 coins they would need to weigh the same as five £1 coins – quite a weighty coin! The principle isn’t applied universally, you cannot mix copper and “silver” coins for example, but is a factor the BoE would no doubt want to consider.

Incidentally, there have been proposals to phase out £50 notes. Plastic cards and bank transfers are now used for the vast majority of transactions over £30 or so. I believe there are concerns in official circles that £50 notes are now used mostly to launder the proceeds of crime or to evade tax. Whether or not they are withdrawn probably depends on that word “mostly”.

I personally have a big problem of this slide into bank cards only . I dont use mine except very occasionally over the phone and then only to recognised businesses I know about. ie- reliable. I can just imagine a car-boot sale you give your card to the stall holder their machine wi-fi,s it via a hub on site , yes , that would sure go down well—–nope ! What it also means is BB getting more info on you on every transaction and hitting you with sales communications and the government knowing your every financial move , no sorry not for me. And no I dont have the money to “launder ” as my OAP doesnt reach those stratospheric heights that cameron + co and his millionaire cabinet does . I know exactly where all this is going and hopefully by that time I will be gone.

Ron,
LCA = Life Cycle Impact.
It’s all here (I think) 🙂

The Bank of England
LCA of Paper and Polymer Bank Notes
Final Study Report

bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/polymer/Documents/lcapaperandpolymerbanknotes.pdf

I wonder why these notes are referred to as polymer rather than plastic.

Probably because “plastic” sounds cheap. These polymer fivers or not – to buy them will cost you around £614/100g in supermarket pricing – and no special offers. 🙁

Yes, but this stinks of marketing. From the Bank of England’s website: “Like Churchill, the new polymer note will also stand the test of time. It is cleaner, being more resistant to dirt and moisture. It is safer, with better security features. And it is stronger, making it longer lasting and more environmentally friendly.” This is the first time I’ve heard polypropylene described as environmentally friendly.

Well, the report (that I linked to above) says that the polymer banknotes (£5) use one 27th of the amount of water used for paper versions, 70% of the energy, are half as ecotoxic, and generally have superior environmental performance. Paper is not as environmentally friendly by comparison, it would seem. I suppose the most environmentally-friendly money would be on-line transactions.

Polypropylene ? wavechange that comes in different grades its probably low grade ,high grade stuff is used in high quality audio capacitors (expensive ) military /government labs etc . I agree though I wouldnt rate it “enviromentally friendly ” .

I know, Duncan. But irrespective of quality, when it is shredded and ends up in landfill it will be there for hundreds of years. Plastic-eating bacteria are still in the realms of science fiction.

The report shows the effects of impact at end of life.

I hope it does Ian – PET is a poor competitor to PP which has far superior qualities (high grade ) . That includes the chemical composition ,so does it breakdown PP just as quick ? Had a look doesnt refer to PP only PET which I am sure wavechange will tell you has a different chemical composition.

No – there’s no reference to PP, but I suspect it won’t be long.

Thanks Ian. I had forgotten all about Ideonella sakaiensis and it’s not that long since it was discussed here on W?C. I don’t recall any bug that will biodegrade polypropylene has yet been discovered, but it’s probably best not to store your savings in damp earth.

The chemical structure of PET and PP are different, as Duncan says. Most plastics are non-natural materials which is why bugs had not evolved to degrade them. From memory, I. sakaiensis was found near a factory manufacturing PET.

The factory was in Japan wavechange ,typical .

The piece I saw on the TV news [or perhaps on the BBC website] showed a comparison between the existing paper note and a new plastic one. The former was easily torn whereas the latter was not.

Rupert you might not realise it but you have put forward a vital point . According to the British Plastic Federation the =max con. use temperature is =80 degrees centigrade . While the weather in this country isnt often that temperature it has happened and that means you need to keep it cool and dont put it in that non-eco washing machine or go to the Middle East/Africa . The merging of the molecular structure due to heat must cause trouble.

Australia gets pretty hot, Canada pretty cold, and they with New Zealand have converted with other countries to polymer notes. There seem to be no major disadvantages but not doubt when they are introduced to the UK we will have an animated discussion about our experiences. I wonder whether they may stick togther more when wet (not often that they will be unless they are stuck in a sweaty pocket perhaps, or in your swimming trunks)?

Generally maximum continuous use temperature for plastics relates to its mechanical properties – strength for example – that designers use. Probably not so critical for bank notes. Not that you’d normally see them exposed to 80 deg C.

Chile is a good test-bed for plastic bank notes because it has the widest temperature and climatic rage on earth. Chile’s plastic banknotes presumably perform satisfactorily most of the time otherwise they would have been withdrawn. Once we know the problem we can adapt or get used to it.

Cashless is “penciled in ” for 2025/35 Shugg and then you lose real control of your money .

John-why not make a plastic £1 note= cash machines and the billions to convert them , who pays . In any case £1 sterling coin will be like the old threepenny bit and probably the same value soon so the value will be worthless in the future so no point.

Received my new passport the other day [thankfully marked ‘European Union’] and the range of new security features is most impressive, including perforations, transparent sections, raised text, holograms, metallic images, things you can only work out when you hold it up to the light, and even my own signature embedded in it. This’ll cut immigration at a stroke!

Interesting comment especially in view of the EU referendum result, John.

wavechange, please send 5 £10 notes and an sae and I’ll provide you with the same number of plastic fivers. Let us know how you get on. Alternatively the Scots could let us know their experience as they’ve been using them for around a year (that’s if any Scot would admit to possessing a five pound note). 🙂

I think I’ll decline Malcolm’s generous offer. 🙂 I’ve spent a couple of weeks in Scotland since the plastic notes were introduced but did not see one of them.

Polymer banknotes should trump rubber cheques.

On a serious note [!] I don’t know what I’m going to light my cigars with in future.

Watch out John somebody might take you seriously and think you were the projected image of the fat capitalist lounging back in his leather padded chair a cigar in his mouth , champers in one hand and his other hand is grasping a pile of big bucks . A smile is on his face as his right foot rests on the back on one of his workers while the shoe on his other foot is being polished by a down at heel shoe-shine boy , a waiter enters the room with the Times on a silver platter and bows as he presents it to him , he then complains of a crease in the newspaper and growls at the waiter who retreats backwards a la Queens servant in her presence , reaching the door he trips and the tray goes crashing to the floor and the words —FIRED ! issue from the tycoons mouth.

Quite right too! You’re fired – what is the world coming to? This use of the word “trump” again – must be planted here by some crafty schemers across the water or in murky parts elsewhere.

One attribute, I’ve heard, of plastic notes is they can be prone to sticking together. I’m looking forward to visiting the cash machine to see it this is fact or fiction.

How about some “penny shares” sir!

Are bit coins plastic, metal or fictitious? I’ve never understood their concept, but they’ve always sounded like bit cons. Haven’t heard much about them of late.

Investing money in scarce commodities that have use is a good idea, even if only decorative. Many metals and minerals are vital to industry.

There is political intervention involved in bit coins , they are ,in fact, competition to the hegemony of the “Almighty Dollar ” . They represent an alternative currency and in a way a “threat ” to the established Big Banks , they are a type of virtual money that is “open source ” . Even so I would rather invest in gold than bit coins although big time hackers hold up computer systems for bit coins , like ransom-ware hackers holding companies and individuals to ransom . They are paid for services rendered over the web.

I hope and pray it stays that way Wendy.

I hope they will feed into the ticket machine at the railway station; probably so as it’s just been upgraded with a new card reader and they surely would have done the banknote tray at the same time . . .

My 1st 4 came from a cash machine in Swindon yesterday.

They look a bit like toy money,
“But it doesn’t matter cause I’m packing plastic
And that’s what makes my life so blimmin’ fantastic”
(Read more: Lily Allen – The Fear Lyrics | MetroLyrics )