Power cut – the problems with power of attorney

Bill I would ask Barclays for any paid cheques and if these confirm fraud then contact the Office of the Public Guardian to see if they are interested

I think that it is vital for it to be made clear that with an LPA (Property and Financial), once it is registered, the attorneys can act immediately on the donor’s behalf – for example, take control of their bank account. Since it is impossible to predict how circumstances or relationships might develop over the next ten or twenty years, this seems unwise. However, Section 5: Restrictions and Conditions does allow the donor to stipulate that the LPA can only be used once they have been medically certified to lack mental capacity. This is suggested rather weakly as a possible restriction in the Guidance notes but I think that it deserves much more prominence. I do not intend to complete my LPA until this is fully sorted out – for example, what exactly does ” medically certified” mean?

Julian If the PoA ismade professionally then there s/b no risk.LPAs are straightfoward just long winded.I made 1000s of EPAs andLPAs and none of 100s of registrations were rejected .I believe it can cost about £500 to register and if 90% are never used thats a lot of money wasted

Owen Joint names is a good idea for accounts which can be operated on either signature and there is total trust.May not help for investments or property where both need to sign

Julian I agree that otherthan bank accounts joint names has drawbacks.It can be made clear that the attorney is acting as bare trustee for the donor as sole beneficial owner but that could be challenged.On the other hand inheritance would be easier if the donor wants the attorney to have funds immediately

My parents had signed the old Enduring Powers of Attorney. When my mother had a stroke and my father was physically no longer able to deal with financial matters, though both were mentally still capable, they asked us (my sister and I) to use the EPOA. We started the process, having to explain repeatedly that the EPOA was not registered with the court. We had certified copies from a bank and a solicitor. Our experiences were very varied – some went through easily (NatWest and Nationwide were very good), others asked for more details and one said that we needed to send the original deed and required my mother’s signature as an original Attorney for my father, even though they had been officially informed that she had died. Things did work but we didn’t always feel to be in control.

In February 2007 I obtained Power of Attorney for my late mother’s affairs.
I had no problems with her bank (HSBC) I rang for an appointment took in my ID and the attorney document.and left with a joint account about 15 minutes later.
I did have problems with Dept. of Work and Pensions.I phoned the office dealing with her State Pension,I told them I did not like the idea of post the document to three different offices. I was told I could take them to our Job Centre and have certified copies taken. when I went to the Job Centre I was told they did not do it. I tried to explain but he was not interested I then said I was not going until they did the copies. Next thing the bouncer was breathing down my neck asking me to leave I said if he touched me I would inform the Police. On hearing what was going on the Manager came out. She asked me what the problem was, I told, her she took the copies, I signed a form and left.
The only other problems I had were after my mother’s death. People,companies,and organisations who should know better were hounding me and I also had threat of court action for money owed. I just told them to contact mother’s solicitors.
I hope my experiences with Power of Attorney will be of some use to others especially do not take no for an answer.

Kindest regards
Ron Bates

Having recently taken on a LPA for my Aunt, the ‘Power Cut’ article in this month’s magazine was of particular interest.
As my involvement with HSBC echoes the same problems as reported – the denial of a debit card and online access – I have forwarded a letter to their Customer Information Services asking for clarification.

My Aunt, now approaching her 105th birthday, is registered as blind, reliant on a wheel chair, and virtually housebound in residential care. Although more than happy to shoulder the responsibility of managing her affairs, the logistics of living fifty miles from the nursing home create a number of problems.

Despite the many downsides to my Aunt’s health her mind has not suffered, but her increasing frailty is such that she is no longer able to make telephone calls or to sign cheques, and therefore relies on me to purchase the majority of her additional needs.
Being denied the use of an HBSC debit card means that the purchase of her requisites has to be achieved via my own credit or debit card. The reality of reimbursement is having to write cheques in favour of me; a practice which I would rather avoid.
At the time of registering the LAP the representative at HBSC stated that the bank did not favour such actions [although admitting to times of unavoidability]. The issue of a debit card would ensure that all purchases were recorded directly to my Aunt’s account and make transactions far more transparent.

In addition, not only would I be able to purchase online and have any item sent direct to the nursing home, but also the need to traipse to a bank with a reimbursement cheque would be eliminated.
As for the managing of her accounts it is almost prehistoric, as without online access I have to await the arrival of statements by mail.

In the majority of cases the registering of the LPA with other institutions has been relatively easy, but in cases such as with Santander, the required additional documentation has not proved straightforward.
Apart from the certified copy of the LPA, Santander asked for a copy of my passport or driving licence, plus a copy of a recent bank statement or utility bill. Of the latter two items I elected the utility bill, but a downloaded version was not acceptable and a copy of a paper bill was stipulated.

My banking and utility involvement is all managed on line and is therefore paperless. To comply with the request involved telephoning British Gas, who I found more than helpful. It was necessary for them to close my online account, reinstate postal billing, arrange the forwarding of the statement, and then resurrect the online facility. This was all done in a single phone call and I was impressed.

The decline of paper billing continues and I would hope in time to come that downloaded copies of documentation will become acceptable. I am not au fait with the law, but as it appears acceptable for millions to rely on online invoices as evidence of purchase, why cannot a downloaded copy of a utility bill etc. be accepted as a legitimate form of proof?

Anthony Mallett

The article is potentially confusing, in that there is almost no differentiation made between an Enduring PoA and Lasting PoA. I have en EPA for my mother, which has not been registered with the OPG, and have so far been able to exercise it as expected. It’s a bureaucratic pain, but seems to work.

Contrary to the article, I’ve been able to manage her HSBC accounts online, even though she still is able to sign her cheques when necessary, and has her statements sent to her.

Liz Your problems show that there are good reasons to have a joint and several power not just joint.

Thanks Mike and Bob –

Mike – I agree that a joint and several POA would have been good and we still have no idea whether mum was advised by her solicitor to do a joint one or chose to – when we needed to register we were just glad there was an EPOA in existence as I think it unlikely my mother would have agreed to draw up any new POA given her mental state.

Bob – In comparison to our situation your aunt sounds a rational and reasonable lady!. – We took legal advice before we registered the EPOA. Briefly – It became obvious that mum was not well but refused to go to the doctor, her IFA tipped me off about large disinvestments he was concerned about, we then discovered quite by accident that huge sums of cash had gone missing, there was evidence of horrific sums being spent on scams (you may have seen Panorama/Watchdog etc) the Serious Fraud Office had been involved, a builder was ‘helping’ and this previously well organised lady had not dealt with tax etc etc. Whilst anyone should be free to spend their money as they want this was entirely out of charcter and mum was ‘spending’ at a rate that would have quickly made her homeless and destitute. Subsequently the medical diagnosis confirmed our fear and mum’s mental incapacity is now obvious to all who know her – except the bank staff!

Thanks for your advice – we will be writing to the bank as you suggest. The measure of the impact of this on one’s ability to think rationally is that your very simple suggestion never occurred to me! Thank you

It would be interesting to know how many appointed as attornies have made a power of their own.I once asked a doctor who attended my mother in law when she was diagnosed with Alzheimers if he had done so and it had never occured to him.