/ Food & Drink, Home & Energy

Why kettle water tastes funny: mystery (nearly) solved

Steaming red kettle

Earlier this year we asked you to help solve the mystery of smelly, foul-tasting kettle water – a problem that for many of you has been spoiling your daily cuppa. And now we’ve discovered a common cause.

The problem bubbled up when Which? members complained that the water heated in their kettle had a ‘plastic flavour that made it undrinkable’. We carried out testing in our lab, which confirmed there was a problem with how the water in one of the kettles tasted and smelled.

But it soon turned out to be far from an isolated problem. In fact, we’ve so far had more than 130 comments complaining about the taste and smell of the boiling water your kettle produced.

But what’s the cause? It soon turned out that it wasn’t a single brand that was to blame. Was it the water supply? Even some of you who used filtered water had the same problem.

The cause of smelly kettle water

We contacted scientists Luke Montgomery of Yorkshire Water and Dr Robin Price of Anglian Water. They told us that the chlorine in tap water reacts with phenol-based compounds sometimes found in plastic and rubber parts of the kettle.

There aren’t any associated health risks. And not everyone will have this problem – chlorine levels vary, and people have different sensitivities to taste and smell, Dr Price told us.

It’s recommended you compare the kettle water with water boiled in a saucepan to see whether it’s the kettle’s causing the problem. If it is, you can get rid of the chlorine by storing tap water in a covered jug in the fridge for a few hours.

We’re looking into whether in the future we can test every kettle we review for this problem, so you can avoid buying models likely to produce smelly water.

However, the mystery still isn’t fully solved. We had problems with the Russell Hobbs’ Ebony 15076 kettle even with filtered water that didn’t contain any chlorine.

Dennis Morley says:
30 October 2015

My Kenwood JKP280 kettle bought more than two years ago (a Which best buy) has consistently caused the same problem. I’ve blamed the kettle, coffee, the water supply, my dishwasher and plastic pipe plumbing (on one of my kitchen sinks). However There was never a problem with my old appliance so it must be the kettle or a change in the water supply? The taste is a combination of soap, oil and metal that leaves a nasty metallic tingle on your lips. A few sips and the drink has to be thrown away. To mitigate the problem I rinse mugs, empty the kettle of any residual water, run the cold tap until the water is icy cold and then fill with enough water for drink/s and take the first sip with some trepidation. What a load of hassle just for a hot drink!

hi dennis
ill just test this first to make sure it goes through

BS EN 60335-2-15 “Household appliances….Safety….for heating liquids” might contain information about the use of materials. If only we could look at standards. Perhaps Which? has access to them for its testing?

Thanks Malcolm. If you have a look at the Introduction it looks as if this may relate mainly to electrical safety. It’s a good example of the need to have open source British Standards, a topic we were discussing recently. Any respectable scientific journal includes an abstract or summary of the contents of research articles and reviews. These abstracts are freely available even if there is a cost involved in obtaining the article.

wavechange, many standards are safety standards but encompass more than just electrical safety, if it is relevant. If there were a hazardous chemical issue known it might well be included. There are other standards for kettles that relate to performance.

Sometimes I find sites that do give a little information on a standard; even a contents list can help.

I’d still like Which? to tell us about its own access to standards and whether it has looked at those that concern electric kettles to see if they help.

I’ve had a bit to do with standards too, Malcolm. Perhaps we can agree that it would be helpful for them to be publicly available.

Which? or any organisation commissioned by them can purchase copies of standards either on a one off basis or may be able to do this by subscription.

@deekay wrote: “Could this modern kettle smell be down to the metals used and the reactions betwen the metals or between the metals and chemicals in the water. This all does happen in other situations.”

We have discussed metallic tastes in this or the earlier Conversation. As you know (but others might not), having two or more different metals in tap water (which contains various metal salts and is electrically conductive) results in electrolytic action, which results in metal ions going into solution and a metallic taste. Even welding stainless steel can result in differences between the weld area and other areas. As pointed out in earlier discussions, stainless steel can be passivated to avoid such problems.

While some have described metallic tastes it seems that the main problem is other smells and tastes related to plastics and rubbers.

Thanks Wave, I wasnt reading again and missed this
In my last position the whole trend was stainless.
I can say it bit us the behind good and sore but was never cured.
Might I add that the standards did not deal with nor make mention of dissimilar metal with one being prouder than the other or in fact anything to do with corrosion or reactions
Add to that electricity and all hell breaks loose
I have some examples of the all the offending items here and wished them to operate for many years yet as replacing them would be expensive.
Might I add that what was utilised were standard readily available components as would not be unusual and they were tested to destruction and deemed fit for use before the final product was put into use.
The first spec prior to this was mild steel electro plated case with nichrome wire wound and mounted. The wire was obvioulsy insulated from the casing. These were the best loads of the bunch but the nature of the open element could not be used because of the threat of electrical shock even with installing instructions stating only to mount them well out of harms way without repeating the thing word for word.

The earlier before stainless demand casings lets say done not so bad.
The casings were mild steel, electroplated with zinc with various types of elements mounted in them.
I am not coastal so things get much worse there but the mild steel versions are still okay after some 10 years but they are showing their age. I’d estimate another 5/10 years maybe.
There is no sign of the elements corroding but some of the plating has gone and the casing is the sacrifice. These mild steel versions ended up only being used to prototype the elements testing. Thats how I have them.
The later by demand stainless casings are all as expected in pristine however the same cannot be said of the elements. The elements corrode to open circuit (with a little luck) over a 4 to 5 year period.
In an attempt to help the situation I added two magnesium anodes as would be used in water heaters.
This stopped the corrosion and the anodes are notably suffering so the theory is working. Nearly.
My former work mate, instruments tech and former north sea worker and yacht owner so plenty of corrosion experience fore warned me that I would need to check the electrical terminals for evidence of migration of tiny particles.
The anode material seems to be being attracted to the open spade type terminals and if you could see the route it has to take to get there you’d be surprised. In otherwords it has to go through an adjacent hole in the casing and travel about 2″
If it had not been his warning I would have looked up in at the visible elements and thought everything was fine.
Anyhow its just another bit of info that stainless may not be everything it is perhaps made up to be and that stainless and today’s readily available elements may not agree.
I might add I personally have both oven/air and immersion/kettle type elements used in these applications.
Both suffer. Both are replacement parts for recognised brand names and I can confirm that it makes little odds if the parts are OE or aftermarket
Add to that a load of plastic that is obviously of unknown origin plus chemicals in water that then has an obvious magnetic field with a coil style element and I’d say at best its a guessing game.

No odds to me personally as our water and kettles have no problems despite what seems to be such a common problem.

It’s quite surprising that we did not hear of problems with metallic tastes when metal kettles had (often peeling) chrome or nickel plated copper-clad elements.

I’m not convinced that metallic taste is a major issue and perhaps we should focus on the more common problem of strange smells and tastes that seem to be due to the plastics or seals.

Your probably right. Boy some were pretty rough looking before they were chucked out.
To be honest I have never had as many problems with dissimilar metals as I have had with these things with electric in them.
Bear in mind all these elements are 2 or 3 turns and everybody says never coil ac.
The power we had was mostly pulse width which causes fields in a similar way to ac. At full power the gate closes and they then got dc.
If any of that makes any odds
Maybe someone with more knowledge of these fields might think of something or result of some other thing they have ran across in the past.
Keep throwing things is the ring and something will come outs

In the earlier conversation I asked the British stainless steel association whether they could shed any light on the problem. They returned a very comprehensive and helpful guide on the use of stainless steel in the food industry but they did not expect the stainless steel to give the tainted taste.

A couple of days ago asked what I believe are the relevant UK trade association and marketing association – AMDEA and SEAMA – if they are aware of this problem. Waiting to hear. However this problem is unlikely to be confined to the UK, and our products are subject to European standards (EN). Hence I asked Which? if they have liaised with BEUC (European consumer groups umbrella organisation).

This may be irrelevant but when I tried boiling water in my kettle with the lid off (be careful when doing this as you could scald your hands) to simulate the same process as in a saucepan using tap and not filtered water, there was no unpleasant taste. The difference between the kettle and the saucepan being, the kettle failed to automatically switch off at boiling point without the lid. The lid when applied, presses on a plastic arm when in situ which I assume must activate the switching off process. My kettle is a metal Breville but I hadn’t noticed the plastic arm until I tried this experiment. This has probably already been covered before on this topic but I am curious to know whether the plastic and its related
constituent chemicals in this arm can alter the taste of the water at boiling point.

The automatic switch-off process generally needs the lid closed to operate. This diverts steam down a tube and activates the switch. Originally this was done using a bimetallic strip, which bends as the temperature rises and operates the switch. There may be more sophisticated devices in use these days.

Have a look inside and you may see the steam tube towards the back of the kettle.

I agree with Malcolm that if there is taste there may be a health problem and testing should be done
Why does everything have to kill people before anyone pays attention. I was around most likely like most of you all thought the era of tobacco companies denying the obvious against all odds and for years they continued to promote their products.
I did make mention that we have no problems with taste or smell from any of our kettles but that we have no chemicals either. Our kettles are all supermarket cheapies.
I note that others have commented on bottled which should be plain water as such but maybe not.
Just thought I’d throw my bit in about unadulterated water as a thought

I’ve had a response from amdea – the UK trade association for electrical appliances – which says:
“Kettles are all manufactured to meet the requirements of the legislation governing materials in contact with food.
In terms of reactions with chlorine, it is possible that where water is coming into contact with older plastics in the pipework or tap washers these may contain phenols. There was also a study some years ago which looked at natural water constituents which could, in some conditions react with chlorine to produce chlorophenols. And some people are more sensitive to chlorine anyway so may taste it when other people do not.
However, water in different parts of the country contains different levels of minerals which affect its taste. Some serious tea drinkers even recommend that you should use a pH neutral water to make tea. Re-boiling water is not recommended as this will concentrate any chemicals influencing the taste of the water and will affect the flavour of the tea.”
It does seem as though some testing is required by someone. Is this the usual “something must be done” (but by whom?). I don’t think it matters who does it but since Which? has raised this topic twice would it cost then much to arrange tests using kettle and water from people in this conversation who have had problems (and who have already offered to cooperate)?

This response avoids the possibility that there could be anything wrong with the kettles. But trade associations are there to support their members and not the public. I was once told that directly.

Which? has said that they will test all new kettles for taste problems and I’m not convinced that they will take up the offer of collecting problem kettles for testing. Once goods have been purchased, there is no way of knowing how they have been used or abused.

Perhaps the way forward is to push everyone with a smell/taste problem to return their kettle to the retailer as soon as possible. Under the Consumer Rights Act we now have 30 days to reject goods. As far as I am aware, these problem are usually there from the outset. I have not checked all the posts but I cannot remember anyone reporting problems with getting a dodgy kettle repaired.

Actually, that response contains almost no information that has not already been presented on these Which? conversations. I wonder if their research was confined to a quick look on here?

People have reported the smell/taste problems with brand new kettles. Their water supply or composition did not change overnight. Their vegetables have not become inedible. Their hot shower does not smell any different. Amdea’s statement is probably lawyer-approved and is intended to deflect attention away from the fact that the domestic appliance manufacturers have possibly been negligent through (a) failing to exercise due diligence over the production process, and (b) failing to test the product if a change was made in the materials used during manufacture. Alternatively the companies have been comprehensively taken for a ride by non-compliant activities at the production factories and are afraid to admit it. I can’t see how trying to cover up this issue, or blaming it on something known not to be a cause, is going to help their reputation or consumers’ trust.

John – There are indications that the problem is due to interaction of chlorine in tap water with the plastics/rubbers used in the manufacture of kettles. The high temperature is likely to be a factor because chemical reactions become faster at higher temperatures. The rate of chemical reactions doubles for every 10°C rise in temperature and the rate of leaching of chemical compounds from plastics/rubbers will also become faster.

The sloppy writing in the AMDEA statement is inexcusable. “There was also a study some years ago which looked at natural water constituents which could, in some conditions react with chlorine to produce chlorophenols.” I wonder what that is intended to mean.

I would like to be sure that the materials used in kettle manufacture are safe.

Maybe when we establish the cause of tainted water, rather than simply speculating, we can then take the necessary action.

Yes. I am trying to point out that nothing has changed in these users’ experiences other than the kettle itself so it is pointless of Amdea casting around in an effort to pin the blame on something else. Their behaviour stinks and leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.

I have little confidence in an organisation that managed to chose the acronym AMDEA to represent the Association of Manufacturers of Domestic Appliances.

The European Food Standards Authority (EFSA) has looked at the evidence regarding the possible danger of bisphenol A to humans and concluded that it is safe in contact with food. Many would argue that this is not the case, and surely it is better to use plastics that do not contain it.

There are a few kettles that have no plastic or rubber components in contact with the water. That’s how kettles used to be made. I look forward to reading a Which? report about all-metal kettles.

My suspicion is that the companies specified plastics free of bisphenol A but the foreign manufacturers have not complied, whether deliberately or accidentally, and AMDEA’s members in the kettle trade have been caught out not controlling their product. To cover their embarrassment they say our water has gone funny.

Not sure what you mean, but if it was the reason for the redundant E I suspect it was for Electrical as that it was they represent.

This is why I keep suggesting that companies should be subject to the equivalent of a Freedom of Information request. We should be able to find out which plastics are (and have been) used in the manufacture of kettles of different brands. At one time we did not know the ingredients of manufactured food, but in most cases it is obligatory to provide this information.

There have been problems with leaching of harmful chemicals into food in the past. Cling film comes to mind.

I am not claiming that any kettle may contain harmful plastics because I am denied information that should be public knowledge.

This is why standards – Euro Norms in the case of the EU – are so important as they are written by experts and developed to take account of such matters. They then provide the means to both design and test products for conformity, and police products. Without standards it is a murky free-for-all.

No system is perfect – there will always be those wishing to deceive as in all walks of life, and they often get a head start. And a problem, as we have seen in other conversations, is how you stop these perpetrators before they get too far.

I still want to know, not conjecture, just why the water becomes tainted. Plenty of speculation but we need proper scientific analysis if we are to determine the cause and get something done about it.

I accept that standards exist, but how do I know that the materials used in the manufacture of my kettle do not leach toxic chemicals at the temperature of boiling water? When production is outsourced to other countries know that standards are being complied with. Well known companies have attracted criticism for failure to comply with environmental regulations, working conditions etc. overseas. I don’t have a great deal of confidence that standards are adhered to.

My own experience with standards has not been good. There is a standard (presumably EN rather than BS these days) covering earth bonding in electrical equipment. At work I encountered several examples of non-compliance in every one of 36 items of specialist electrical equipment manufactured by a well known European company. I have seen similar problems with domestic equipment in the days before Class II (double insulated) products became common.

Although the analytical equipment needed to identify the chemical compounds responsible for the smell/taste problem is commonplace, it might not be an easy task because of detection limits, as we have been told. I doubt that Trading Standards would take up the problem unless there is evidence of a hazard or retailers refusing to offer replacements or refunds for affected kettles.

“I accept that standards exist, but how do I know that the materials used in the manufacture of my kettle do not leach toxic chemicals at the temperature of boiling water?”. I would expect a standard for appliances that boil water to take account of such matters. Would that we could see the appropriate standards. A job for Which? to answer, i believe.

I accept, as I said earlier, that rogues can foist products on to us that do not comply with standards. I don’t know how you can get round that problem. Manufacturers must have strict procedures in place to produce compliant products that are tested for compliance. Quality systems track materials origin for example and audits are made by the certifying authority. But if you want to deceive……..

What else would you have instead of standards? In general. they work well for our benefit.

If goods are made on behalf of companies 10,000 miles away the possibility of non-compliance with both standards and the specifications is increased. The ancient commercial art of profit-making is to manufacture at Far Eastern rates and sell at European prices. Putting a team of quality assurance managers or specification compliance auditors on each production line would soon erode any economies brought by the outsourcing.

I feel that we should be able to have access to all standards that may affect our health and safety. As it stands, I don’t even know whether there is a relevant standard related to kettles and other water heating appliances or whether we need to look at standards relating to plastics in contact with food and drink. I have not been able to find information that gives me any reassurance that kettles are free from harmful materials.

I’m not sure how I would address the problem but I would like to see externality in ensuring that commercial products meet requirements. Going back to what I have said many times, Which? does not just accept what manufacturers declare, but arranges its own testing.

I’m just going to add my tuppence here.

I drink a *lot* of coffee and the kettle is constantly on the go – I’ve had all kinds of kettles, from metal to plastic – stove top, corded and cordless and never had a problem with taste – until late today. That’s how I found this thread as I’m trying to find a reason..

my kettle is around 2 months old (it’s a breville), I use Brita filtered tap water and my cups are washed in the dishwasher.. After the last few hours of absolutely undrinkable coffee, I did a semi control test. The cup was from the back of the cupboard and had been washed in a load that hadn’t given me trouble, I got a new jar of coffee out and used pure tap water heated in the microwave and I smelt the coffee in the new jar and it didn’t smell any different to usual, I drank some of the tap water I boiled before boiling it and it didn’t taste any different to usual.

The result was there was still the vile taste but not as strong (but then I didn’t boil the water in the microwave, just heated it up enough to be drinkable).

So, any ideas? I don’t think it’s the kettle, the cup, the coffee or the milk – it has to be the water but I can’t work out how it can develop this nasty taste just by heating it.

If there is something nasty but potentially smelly dissolved in your tap water, it will be released by the act of boiling the water and you will then be able to taste it.


Why do we drink the water from the kettle anyway, surely this is the part most likely to contain contaminants? Possibly a new type of kettle with say a glass plate to distill the steam from the water and therefore remove the pollutants would be a better idea. Having read the comments above I am debating using the steam pipe to extract distilled water or a pyrex jar at the opening of the kettle mouth to condense pure water which can then be collected. Quite crude but to get rid of 99% of the pollutants I think worth the time taken. Can anyone suggest any imnprovements, would appreciate any critsicm positive or negative.

would using the steam from the kettle and hence distilling the water be a better alternative?

If the water has an unpleasant smell, that means that the chemical compound(s) responsible are volatile and would probably end up in the distilled water. Contrary to popular opinion, distilled water is not very pure and it is expensive to make.

Since perfectly good kettles that did not introduce odd smells or taints were available for years, and some brands remain available today, I think we just need to get back to those manufacturing methods and materials that produced satisfactory kettles. The number of reports of nasty tastes in new kettles seems to have declined lately but that might just be because people have given up reporting it here. Alternatively, there has been a change in production processes to eliminate the incorrect use of inferior materials which I personally believe was the origin of the problem.

Just returned a plastic Kenwood kettle to john Lewis because of this problem. Swapped it for a metal one but the same problem occurs. There are some plastic parts inside, such as the water level window. The old style all metal kettle we were using didn’t have this problem and I’m glad we kept it. I think kettle nr.2 will be going back to John Lewis. This seems to be a widespread problem. Is it just Thames Valley water (where I live) that reacts with kettle’s? Presumably not.

It’s the manufacturing process, not the water, at fault. Keep taking the kettles back until you get one that’s ok. It might even be the same model (mine was).

I have a Morphy Richards plastic kettle that fouls up the water .I bought another kettle a Russel Hobbbs filter kettle , still plastic and the water tastes fine even without the filter so it’s the kettle there is something in the Morphy Richards kettle that is stinking up the water I tried cleaning it with bicarb and lemons separately and together .I scrubbed it I threatened it and swore at it but to no avail Something in the kettle is reacting when water is boiled in it .

Derrick says:
9 January 2016

I have a metal kettle that I use in gas cooker (happy lady made of stainless steel). No plastic is inside it but still sometimes it makes the water tastes and smells funny. Sometimes we found that it helps that you throw any remaining boiled water from the kettle and put some more fresh again, but didn’t always work either. Also note that I use filtered tap water.

I have the same issue, but if I empty the kettle and leave the cold tap running it then seems to be ok, I can only assume that it must be the water that has been stood still in the pipes that accumalates whatever is causing the taste/smell. Still none the wiser though

Gill Davies says:
29 January 2016

I recently bought a Which best buy kettle for work. I have used it for 2 weeks and still tea tastes of plastic. It is horrible! I thought it was the water, but it isn’t as I’ve made tea using Evian water, but I have to throw the tea away; it is undrinkable.

This comment was removed at the request of the user

I would tend to agree
When one is grinding one learns the taste of steel/iron/aluminium/plastic etc
The little dust size bits most likely have the chemicals on the outside of them as they have just been cut/heated and generally been stirred around………A lot of compounds seem to taste and smell the same just as they start to burn and we know that smell is part of taste

There may be a chance that Gill that you have tasted plastic in the past……….otherwise how would you know what a plastic taste is…………
If I tasted plastic in my drink I would not drink it………..Try taking the kettle back and ask for a refund

I haven’t posted to this kettle debate often but to date it has been very scientific has it?????
If there is a taste of smell/taste then there is something in the kettle…………..Taste does not appear out of thin air

There may be a combination of water chemicals and kettle taste but those who notice “a funny taste” and have not changed the kettle or run the tap are not a great indication…….
If running the tap solves the tap solves the problem I’d assume the funny taste is the water not the kettle

Why has Which started a topic and not contacted the those who have the problem……………the introduction states Which has contacted a couple of eminent people and been told about a combination of chemicals and plastic but that it is most likely safe
The lack of input suggests to me that it could have as much chance of being unsafe as safe as there has been no input apart from peoples stories
Not very accurate is it

In our rural area we noticed that after every heavy rain fall the level of chlorine in our drinking water is increased . 2 to 3 days after a cloudburst fresh water out of the tap is stinking, let alone boiling water in the kettle. You should test your kettles according to the weather condition!

whichisit, ,
You are possibly correct
The addition of bleach is often not an exact science for some water plants and often is better too much as too little which to a degree is correct but it doesnt mean you like it or have to like but one has little choice I’d think
You must be getting water from a catchment damn and if there has been a downpour especially this year the ground is already sodden and will hold no more water which in turn means there will be a load of muck run into the catchment. . That muck is the problem that needs treatment most likely and they may be a little over zealous about the treatment
When first married we lived for a short time in a council house and every time we flushed the toilet we had to get out of the wc as the fumes were awful
The smell though does tell you that it is probably free from harmful little thingys, , ,It’s probably free from all the good little thingys also but bleach is not discriminate stuff
If one finds themselves out without fresh water and one has bleach tablets or powder one is instructed to keep adding bleach and letting the water rest a little before smelling and when one has added enough one will smell a bleachy smell. . .It is then supposedly safe to drink and not before the smell remains
I’m sure Wave will fill in the details if I’ve forgotten the teachings

My understanding is that the water company varies the amount of chlorination according to need to be sure that there is enough to keep the water supply safe. Organic matter uses up chlorine quickly so the company needs to err on the safe side. Some are more sensitive to chlorine and have problems with swimming baths, whereas others seem unaffected. I have always assumed that boiling water will remove most or all of the chlorine. If not, there are filters that will remove what’s left – at a cost. I’m not keen on drinking water with chlorine but at least it provides evidence that it’s likely to be safe!

Still bottled water contains no chlorine but it can contain lots of bugs so should be boiled before giving it to infants or anyone with a dodgy immune system.

Jut bought a brand new De Longhi kettle and have the same issue. Going back to my old kettle, a few years old, and there are no foul tastes.
So do I take my kettle back for a refund or persevere and try bicarb?

Lorraine says:
6 March 2016

I removed filter from kettle – no more problems 🙂

Well done Lorraine. Brand new Russell Hobbs “Buckingham” kettle. Not cheap. Tea had a rubbery plastic taste. Undrinkable. Taken out the filter and “Voila” . Now tastes fine.

Just purchased a Quest low watt kettle to use in our caravan and the taste and smell of plastic has spoilt all cups of tea and coffee ,we have used water from 3 areas and also spring water with no fix to the problem, the main body of the kettle is stainless steel but the top is plastic so the taste and smell must be coming from the top. I have contacted the retailer by email but guess what no reply after 5 days!!!!

Boil fresh cold water in a new kettle; tea tastes and smells of ‘antiseptic’, boil it in a totally stainless steel saucepan; no problem. The CAUSE of the ‘antiseptic’ taste is really very clear – it’s the modern kettle (our old, deceased model Breville didn’t have this problem). The REASON for it has been known for SIX years at least – see DEFRA ‘What to do if my water has an objectionable smell or taste’ under ‘TCP tastes’. i.e. Chlorine + certain plastics = phenols. Why hasn’t DEFRA done something about it, or do they not have that kind of authority?

Why is it taking so long to identify a ‘good’ kettle brand + model? What is urgently needed is for people to report back with kettle brand + model that doesn’t
1. give you a whiff of ‘antiseptic’ as you pour the boiled water
2. produce tea that has an ‘antiseptic’ taste.
3. leave the water remaining in the kettle with an ‘antiseptic’ smell after it has completely cooled.

In the meantime, let’s keep on taking brand new kettles back in droves for refund/replacement as DEFRA points out we’re entitled so to do.