The big repair or replace debate

Yep. We always leave the door adjar so that the interior airs dry. Cold and wet are the best friends of mould.

It is best to do a hot wash once a week to help ensure that washing machines don’t become contaminated with bacteria and moulds. Keep the door seal clean and dry and leave the door open unless this could be a danger.

Yes. ‘Hot Wash’ ought to be over 80C, though – 60C leaves some bugs still raring to go again. Our 2013 Bosch Best Buy has a 95C wash for cottons, so I do my old super-thick cotton bath robe and some towels with this once a fortnight – they come out sparkling white, well worth the extra electricity.

And carefully wiping the door seal weekly (especially the lower half) does seem to prolong seal life. Most makers recommend it strongly. Like the hot wash, it’s really a hygiene matter, though. I don’t think that the gungy, mouldy deposits weaken the synthetic rubber. I think that tears are far more likely to be caused by catching something sharpish (like a metal zip) on the seal as the door is shut, or as washing is dragged out in a lump (which happens to impatient me quite a lot!

By the way, our Bosch replaced a 19 year old Best Buy AEG which blew its motor and became not worth repairing because of two things:
1) the repair would have been quite expensive – lots of bits to take apart, as well as the cost of a reconditioned motor (which WAS available); and
2) even a Best Buy 20 years ago is nowhere as good as a good machine today. We were astonished at the difference, and I don’t think that the AEG had deteriorated in its long life from what was then a ‘superb’ performance. Technology does march on!

David – As a microbiologist I have been interested in washing temperature for years and I am convinced that washing once a week at 60C is enough to keep a machine free of bugs. My machine is clean after over 30 years of doing this, and the original seal is still in good condition. Like you, I doubt that microbial growth will damage the synthetic rubber, though I cannot be sure.

Within the last year, Which? reported on the fact that a 60C wash describes cleaning performance rather than operating temperature, thanks to EU intervention. With one of the machines they tested, the maximum temperature achieved on the 60C setting was 43C. Totally crazy. Unless you have a machine that displays the actual temperature it is probably best to do a ‘maintenance’ wash at a temperature that makes the door glass uncomfortably hot, about once a week. The usual recommended frequency for a maintenance wash is once a month, but I prefer to do it weekly.

OK, wavechange. But why, then, does Pasteurization use – is it? – 72C for 20 seconds? Even that merely slows down bacterial growth. Is is different bugs?

The milk has to be drinkable!

I tend to agree. We very occasionally use 60 deg to wash towels, maybe once a month at most. Usually we wash cottons at 40 deg and synths at 30 deg. We don’t seem to have a problem.

The inside of a washing machine does not provide a favourable growth environment for most bacteria and moulds. Those that do grow are fairly heat sensitive. Incidentally, there are bacteria that can grow at boiling point, such as those found in volcanic springs.

Pasteurisation is used to kill of harmful bacteria and preserve the life of milk, etc. without spoiling the taste and nutritional content of milk. In the lab we would use a temperature of 121C for 15 minutes to ensure that all bacteria are killed.

Terfar is probably avoiding microbial growth by using the machine so frequently that bugs are unlikely to build up.

Thanks for that help, wavechange. Do I deduce this right, then:

Because we only use our machine typically twice a week, the occasional 95C wash is useful to keep away stinks and seal growths? Whereas if we washed more frequently this wouldn’t be necessary?

I use an occasional 95C wash anyway because for certain white cottons, especially handkerchiefs and utility room towels, it does give superior cleaning (with an enzyme prewash if there’s staining rather than simple grubbiness).

It is difficult to be sure about this, David. There are so many factors that can vary.

Bugs will stop growing in dry conditions and the design of the machine and whether the door is left open when it is not in use are factors. Low temperature washing will deposit organic materials such as grease and protein from our skin on the innards of a washing machine. This helps provide nutrients to support growth of bugs and can contribute to the ‘biofilm’ consisting of bugs and the products they excrete (e.g. polysaccharides), which helps them stick to surfaces. Dental plaque is another example of a biofilm. Whether a biofilm persists depends on the nature of the surface (e.g. smooth stainless steel or rough plastic) and whether or not the washing action scours the surface. The best sites for bug growth could be the sump, which will always contain water and corrugated hoses (if used) and the base of the door seal on some models.

Smells are usually an indicator of heavy growth of bugs with little or no oxygen. A dishcloth will not smell if it is used regularly, though it is still a good idea to treat it with bleach or boiling water regularly. Frequent use might be enough to keep a machine clean but without inspecting the innards it is hard to be sure.

I suspect we might be off-topic but a friend was going to replace a washing machine in one of his rental flats because the light grey seal was black and mouldy, and looked disgusting. I suggested that he replaced the seal instead and ask the new tenants to do a hot wash periodically, dry the door seal after use, and leave the door ajar when not in use. I understand that the problem has not recurred after about two years.

Thank you. I guess that I’ll continue with the occasional near-boiling wash, then. It should be some help in the sump and hoses. It is MUCH more expensive on power than the 40C wash, though, let alone the 30C wash. I wonder whether machines cool down the water in tropical areas where it comes into the machine at above 30C? (Just joking!)

PS: we always leave open both door and detergent compartment. And we always use a recommended non-concentrate powder, because the Which? tests over the years have shown this to be both the most effective and the cheapest. If Aldi can sell us powders that are both super-cheap and super-effective, why not others?

For reasons best known to themselves, most washing machines are now cold fill only. With water heating by gas, savings can be made with hot & cold fill machines and not surprisingly they are sought after by those using solar water heating. ISE sell hot & cold machines and offer a ten year warranty. I have no idea how they perform, but I presume that they are durable for the warranty to be viable.

I would like Which? to highlight products that offer longer warranties and use this as a factor in product ratings and selection of Best Buys. If all domestic appliances were covered by a ten year warranty, there would be no need to debate whether it is more effective to repair or replace them. 🙂

Two good reasons.

1. New washing machines use less water and many houses now use instant boiler heated water, so by the time the boiler has got the water hot and worked its way through the plumbing pipes, the machine already has sufficient water, so the energy is wasted.
2. Bio cleaners have enzymes that work at low temperature, so the machines fill with cold and the enzymes work whilst the water heats up slowly. Once hot, the enzymes die and other surficants get to work.

So both washing machines and dishwashers have cold fills only for good reason.

Good points, both. But if you have solar heated water, there’s nothing to stop you connecting the washing machine to this supply, before it links to the main hot water storage tank. Even, if you’re so minded and don’t mind manual controls, have the machine connected to both the solar heated supply and the cold supply via a valve system that gives you the choice (several layouts come to mind), and set up a water temperature thermometer on the solar to give you a rational reason to want to choose!

Good point about the cold water in pipes,Terfar, though modern houses are often designed to have the boiler near the kitchen or utility room, which avoids having a lot of cold water in the hot pipes. The most commonly used enzyme in biological detergents is a protease (which breaks down proteins on dirty fabrics) and this can withstand temperatures of 50°C or above. I don’t know for sure, but I suspect that the lipase enzymes (included in some bio detergents to break down grease on fabrics) is also stable at relatively high temperature.

It is not difficult to blend hot and cold water to achieve the required temperature, though I am far from convinced that machine manufacturers are attempting to use biological detergents to their maximum potential. As David says it is possible to use valves to achieve what is needed if you have solar water heating, and I have seen one such installation.

Miele are currently offering a range of washing machines with a 10 year warranty – at a price. Ranging from £899 to £2799. Thing is, you could buy two decent Bosch ones for that price, or spend a bit keeping one Bosch going if you were unlucky. In practice, warranties will come at a price – and these are special offers, not general warranties which are normally 2 years.
There is no sign on the horizon of the arrival of normal long warranties; even cars only start at 3 years – and for decent makes.
We need to assert our rights to a reasonable trouble-free life from reasonably-priced appliances befoire we have to fork out money to the repair man. It is surprising we have not grasped this nettle – it is, I would have thought, a fundamental consumer right.

Malcolm – Car warranties have greatly improved in recent years and I am confident that warranties on household appliances will follow. You have given us a good example.

Appliances often fail because of substandard components, used to save a few pennies on the cost of manufacture. Ask anyone who does servicing and they will be able to identify weaknesses in appliances they are familiar with. Even appliances made by the best respected manufacturers have these weaknesses.

If manufacturers build more durable products they cost of repairing those that fail during the warranty period will fall, so there is absolutely no need for them to be much more expensive.

The reason we must push for longer warranties is that despite the fact that we have the protection of the Sale of Goods Act etc., most don’t push for their rights and not everyone who has a valid claim is successful.

It’s time to push companies to treat us fairly and give consumers decent warranties if they want us to buy their products.

If this is the case it is tough on those whose house is well designed and the gas boiler is close to the washing machine. One of the other reasons given is that by removing the extra components needed for hot & cold fill, it cuts manufacturing cost.

Good points too Richard. The manufacturers are genuinely making efforts to minimise water usage and the filling in stages is one way to ensure that they use the optimum amount for the load.

Also, with only one control valve and no hot/cold blending, the manufacture is simplified and reliability is improved.

Eliminating hot fill will indeed improve reliability and perhaps decrease the risk of water leaks. I have always wondered why washing machines fill in stages, but this is not new. My 1982 Philips machine does this and so did my parents’ 1974 Electrolux.

Saving water is in principle desirable but not if it leaves detergent residues on clothing due to inadequate rinsing and results in skin irritation for some of the population. Perhaps it would be better to save water by not using drinking quality water to flush the loo and water the garden.

You are right Richard. I presume this is the reason why my machine does not use any hot water for a 40C wash.

Our early 1970s Hoover and late 1980s AEG both used filling in stages, and both were hot-and-cold fill. I used to run the hot water tap in the utility room into a bucket for the garden until it warmed up, before turning on the washer. Of course, those were the days when gas boiler heated water was far cheaper than peak time electric heated water. Now I think it’s the other way round – gas is an expensive fuel today.

ISE washing machines claim to have a more sophisticated system to make efficient use of hot and cold fill. I have not seen these machines but they seem popular with washing machine enthusiasts. I believe they were the first to offer a 10 year guarantee and/or warranty on their machines.

Use FreeCycle or another such local recycling system, Bill. Even broken washers are snapped up here, if they’re repairable! More expensive machines are worth repairing for up to 10 years, as the better makers do generally keep spares.

My gran had a late 40s predecessor to the Countess, the Empress – two huge levers at top corners of the front. It never broke down, and my maiden aunt used it until she had to move into a home in 1998. I hope it went into a museum, though the paint was peeling somewhat! There’s a clip of one working here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrSIvJ21dFA

And here’s another – 1940s – film about washing day, featuring efficient use of these old machines. Well worth anyone too young to have been there – and any man who’d have been elsewhere while it was going on (Work? Golf? Club?). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZYva3khdME

I’m simply glad of my modern equivalents and non-iron (sort-of) garments.

You believe adverts!

This Dettol product contains:

<5% Non-Ionic Surfactants, Disinfectant, Parfum, Contains Butylphenyl Methylpropional, Citronellol and Hexyl Cinnamal, Per 100g Liquid contains 2.40 g Dialkyl (C8-10) Dimethylammonium Chloride / Benzyl-C 12-18-Alkyldimethyl Chloride

I would be happier using good old bleach (sodium hypochlorite) which breaks down to produce salt and has such a good safety record that we use it to clean babies bottles (the active component of Milton is bleach). Obviously bleach cannot be used in loads with coloured fabrics.

I’m just a bit concerned about whether chemical residues might be harmful to humans or the waste water could be environmentally damaging. It is a challenge to find chemicals that will harm only one form of life. I would not be surprised if antibacterial handwash and similar products are phased out before long. Triclosan is a particularly nasty example, and that was used in toothpaste at one time.

I’m not suggesting that this Dettol product is harmful but there are hundreds of household and gardening chemicals that are no longer in use.

I hope you were being ironic, Phil! Suppose you try to make bread with a 10-year-old packet of dried yeast. (I have done this!) You add it to sugar water, cover, put in a warm place and wait – and wait – and wait. Nothing; yet a fresh packet will be fizzing away by now. But keep waiting. If 99.9% of yeast cells were dead (leaving one in a thousand alive), it will begin to show activity after half a day or so. If 99.99% are dead it might take a couple of days. That’s active enough to be useable, if you’re prepared to wait. And even one live cell in a billion (99.9999999% dead) is enough to grow to full activity in time. (Anyone care to do the sums? Allow an hour for each division, to be simple.) The same goes for bacteria and anything else that grows by cell division, which is why hygiene is so important.

The disinfectants and bleaches that make this common 99.9% claim are being at the least disingenuous. First, because this is a very low rate of cleansing, despite looking impressive to the layman. Second, because of the ambiguous wording: do they mean 99.9% of all germ cells, or 99.9% of all germ species, rate of death among each species undisclosed? As wavechange – who does this as his work – says, some bacterial species can withstand boiling water and survive, which is why medical equipment is autoclaved (put in a pressure cooker at 120C, for up to 30 minutes).

Regular use, wiping of seals, drying out of the surfaces and occasional high heat or whole-machine cleansing are all a part of the hygiene cycle; the object is not to eliminate germs, moulds and fungi, which is impossible because they pervade the air around us, but to minimize their growth.

Bit off topic here, aren’t we, but it’s all useful stuff!

Although I have recommended bleach because it will not leave harmful residues and is environmentally safe (any left in waste water will break down quickly), I am not sure if regular use would affect the components of a washing machine. I expect that information will be in the machine instructions.

Considering that there may be Billions of germs lurking in a dirty corner, 99.99% still leaves an awful load of germs festering!

We stopped using anything advertising itself as ‘antibacterial’ many moons ago because its long-term effectiveness is suspect and it looks as though it is aiding the build-up of resistance.

We also use bleach products minimally too because of its harm to the environment. Heat seems to be the best answer. We clean our dishcloths in the microwave (between washes) and minimise the build up in the washing machine by leaving the door ajar for it to dry out (damp conditions being a good growing medium for germs).

davidinnotts – You are absolutely right that a claim that a product kills 99.9% of bugs is a fairly meaningless statement, for the reasons you have given.

In the 80s, one of our university technicians who had previously worked for Reckitt & Colman told me that Dettol antiseptic could be used in selective medium to promote growth of Pseudomonas species by killing or inhibiting growth of other bacteria. Dettol is just a brand name and the antibacterial component of Dettol antiseptic (chloroxylenol) is different from that in the laundry product.

Terfar – Some bleaches are undoubtedly harmful to the environment but common bleach (sodium hypochlorite) has been in use for years and it is broken down rapidly in contact with organic material.

For example, from Wikipedia: “A Risk Assessment Report (RAR) conducted by the European Union on sodium hypochlorite conducted under Regulation EEC 793/93 concluded that this substance is safe for the environment in all its current, normal uses.[26] This is due to its high reactivity and instability. Disappearance of hypochlorite is practically immediate in the natural aquatic environment, reaching in a short time concentration as low as 10−22 μg/L or less in all emission scenarios. In addition, it was found that while volatile chlorine species may be relevant in some indoor scenarios, they have negligible impact in open environmental conditions. Further, the role of hypochlorite pollution is assumed as negligible in soils.”

Obviously concentrated bleach is hazardous and it would be worth looking at the manual before putting bleach in a washing machine. Boiling is an alternative way of keeping dishcloths hygienic and putting them in the microwave oven is an interesting alternative that I had not heard of.

I microwave cloths every other day, wavechange – 8 minutes in a lidded jug. Once it’s cooled, the anount of extra gunk that can be wrung out is sickening! My wife still prefers 10 minutes in freebouling water on the stove top, though. Even smellier – that scent filters all around the house.

Well that is good to know. Thanks.

I agree entirely, Claire. We concern ourselves excessively with the immediate up-front cost rather than the long-term consequences of the depletion of the world’s resources which also have a cost far outweighing the identifiable personal costs.

Discussing this in a consumption-driven environment which cannot reject or moderate manufacturing industry’s fundamental principles, supported by the capitalist economy, will always be difficult and evade the real challenges.

There are many companies that produce durable and repairable products. It is far from a fundamental principle of manufacturing industry. I suggest it is also driven by consumers, of varying wealth, need, and principle. Regulation seems to me the only way to change the situation, but that would disadvantage many who have, for example, very light use of some products.

Welcome Claire. We need more people pushing sustainability and other environmental considerations.

Malcolm – In the past it was common for people to buy secondhand products if they could not afford new ones. Sometimes people are all too happy to offer products free rather than scrap them. The problem with cheap white goods is that some owners will make heavy use of goods designed for light use and simply replace them when they break. From the consumer’s point of view this can make economic sense because repairs are expensive, but it’s obviously not sustainable.

A friend has a number of rental properties that tend to be rented out for a year or so. He buys new cheap white goods between rentals because that’s what appeals to his tenants.

We discuss repairability and availability of spares on a regular basis, but what about all the working appliances that are scrapped?

In 1982 I told my new neighbours that I was going to buy a freezer for the garage. Soon after they gave me an ad. from the local paper and as a result I was soon the owner of a nine month old chest freezer, which I eventually scrapped in 2016. It was not that I could not afford a new freezer but it did not seem worth buying one just for the garage.