Plastic-backed fridges must be removed from sale

Beryl, rather than getting into an exchange on whether I (” it would be only be someone who is working for this company”) work for Whirlpool/Hotpoint, I referred Janie to contributions I have made in other Convos on this topic.

I think it is insensitive to bring Grenfell Tower into these Convos when so much is unknown and speculative. I’d prefer to see the outcome of the inquiry before condemning anyone or anything.

I try to post objectively and if that is contrary to someone’s own belief then fine; it is the essence of a conversation. What seems extraordinary to me is the response, having simply pointed out in my comment that we don’t know the cause of the fridge failure, that there are other manufacturers independent of Whirlpool, and that a multi-storey building should resist a fire emanating from one room.

I have not questioned whether induction hobs are more efficient than gas at boiling water, simply pointing out that the energy used costs more – based on your figures about twice as much at typical gas and electricity unit costs.

I’m not sure we should avoid mentioning the Grenfell Tower fire, Malcolm. A Hotpoint fridge-freezer was identified as the cause of the fire long ago: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/23/hotpoint-tells-customers-to-check-fridge-freezers-after-grenfell-tower-fire Whirlpool invited owners to contact them.

Fires can start in electrical equipment for many reasons, but perhaps if appliances were designed to contain fire this could make our homes safer. You don’t need to discuss this tragedy but consider the possibility that those who have lost loved ones or their homes might actually be glad that some people do want to discuss ways of putting an end to appliance fires.

I am, wavechange, as I have said elsewhere naturally in favour of improving the safety of appliances. But in relation to multi-storey buildings, where fires can start in many more ways than appliances, my immediate concern is that they should contain a fire and not allow it to spread. I hope that the inquiry will lead to other inadequate buildings being remedied.

Do you know what caused the fire in the fridge freezer? I don’t. As far as I am aware there is no evidence it was a general fault in the model.

I accept that there are more common causes of fire than white goods but I want to focus on improvements in design in order to prevent fire spreading.

You have pointed out that metal fridge backs can rust, but I’m not aware that this is a problem.

You said: “We should choose the right material for use in particular situations, and there are appropriate plastics that can, and probably are, used in domestic appliances. We need to ensure the tests used to determine their suitability are appropriate and that the correct materials are use. Not all plastics are the same.” Have you any evidence that plastics used in the cases of appliances ARE suitable? My ad hoc tests showed that the plastics used in the casings of all my own white goods are flammable, and the photos I have posted in this and other Conversations show examples of casing plastics that have burned or melted. I don’t mind you criticising my suggestions but perhaps you could provide some evidence to support your criticisms.

Like you, I have seen no information about why the Hotpoint fridge-freezer resulted in the Grenfell Tower tragedy. I don’t believe that we can prevent electrical appliances going on fire but I have little doubt that they could be designed to prevent fire spreading.

I gave information on steel and its post-treatment, not specifically to fridge backs, as a comment on cost. If a prepainted (cheapest) steel panel were used as a fridge back, in a humid situation, it would be likely to rust because the edges are unprotected. Better protection needed (and available).

Ad hoc tests are not what meaningful evaluation of materials is about – they are not necessarily accurate nor repeatable. Standards are very specific about test conditions and procedures to ensure consistency and relevance. In many cases I believe a performance specification is what is required – for example in fire – with the performance being determined by appropriate, strict and repeatable tests and only materials that pass those tests would be suitable. the standards set the criteria to be met, but should not specify the material.

The key is to determining the likely conditions to which the components might be subjected or exposed, in normal and abnormal operation, and apply standard tests that reliably mimic those conditions. This is what standards set out to do. It is the designer’s job to choose materials that are capable of dealing with those conditions.

I would like to see some evidence that steel fridge and freezer backs rust at the edges. As I explained, the heat produced by the condenser will help remove moisture. As far as I am aware, steel has been used for years without problems.

Once an ad hoc test has established that a plastic can burn then you can carry out a needle flame test under standard conditions. Do you have evidence that this has been carried out on appliance fascias, for example?

The standards list the details of a whole range of tests for flammability and fire resistance using different techniques and temperatures designed for different applications. The many parts of IEC 60695 (Fire hazard testing) deal with this. For domestic electrical appliances. BS EN 60335-1 gives the tests currently applied to non-metallic parts (includes plastics).

As I said regarding steel, I gave general information, not specific to fridges. However, if an untreated steel edge were used where it is damp I would expect it to rust. Zinc coated or pregalvanised steel gives much better protection.

You can quote all the standards you want but the problem remains that white goods still set homes on fire. If BSI was to take some examples of white goods and investigate why this happens they could come up with standards that are fit for their purpose.

BSI is open to anyone to contact them with information and views relevant to standards. As they are the UK organisation that deals with international standards if the views have substance they can be raised through their committee.

I will say once again that BSI, and other standards organisations, have working groups that, as far as I know, are currently working on fires in domestic appliances. Any suggestions that might help that work would no doubt be well received.

I would hope Which? would accumulate useful ideas from Convo contributors, together with results from its surveys and testing, and discuss them with BSI; they are listed as belonging to the appropriate committee.

It’s not just a UK problem. Here is a photo of a dishwasher from a US website:

http://www.servprowalthamwestonwatertownwayland.com/blog/post/72455/fire-smoke-damage-restoration/dishwasher-fire-in-natick-mass

Incidentally, I have a Bosch dishwasher and a sample of the plastic fascia burned producing smoke. It’s hardly surprising to see the photo above. How do you explain the photos I have posted, Malcolm, if plastics are tested for flammability and fire resistance?

“I would like to see some evidence that steel fridge and freezer backs rust at the edges”

Over a lifespan of perhaps 20 or 30 years, the steel back of my parents old deep freeze rusted away completely, allowing all the rear insulation to fall away and causing the compressor to work much harder than needed.

This failure was apparent from energy consumption monitoring, i.e. using a “clip on ammeter” smart meter.

Also, this was a freezer in an outhouse. In the kitchen, I doubt that there would have been sufficient damp to allow the complete removal of the steel back to have ever occurred.

A plastic back could never have done that.

Then again, our outhouse never caught fire.

You win some and you lose some…

Fair enough, but I wonder how common this problem is. My Electrolux chest freezer survived for 34 years in the garage and the only obvious rusting was at the back of the lid where there was obviously a cold bridge because condensation could sometimes be seen.

Thank you Beryl.

I doubt anyone would disagree that we should not use flammable plastics in situations where there is a fire risk. Hence the requirement to use plastics that do resist ignition and the spread of flame. These are required generally in appliances and elsewhere. Over 50% of a modern airliner is made of “plastics” materials (adjacent to electrical devices and highly volatile fuel) , much is used in clothing, carpets, upholstery, your car, lights in your office, electrical wiring……..

If there is a requirement that plastics resist ignition and the spread of flame, how do you account for the melted and burned plastics in the photos I have posted in this and other Conversations? Either the standards are inadequate or there is a compliance problem, possibly both.

Regrettably I do not know whether there is a compliance problem in particular manufacturers’ products. The incidence of such damage generally seems very very low. However, the point I continually make is that there are many types of plastics with different properties for use in different situations. No doubt the points raised in these Convos, among others, are also being discussed in the working groups I mentioned above.

I am totally in favour of improving the safety of domestic electrical appliances and having both standards improved where necessary and compliance policed properly.