Who is responsible for reducing our plastic waste?

Yes Which? We need action now not in 24 years.

Here is more about plastics in drinking water. Thankfully plastic is also being found in bottled water, otherwise we could see even more demand for bottled water.

Plastic microparticles in water might help raise awareness of our pollution problems more than the marine pollution.

Missing link, wavechange?

Here it is: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/sep/06/plastic-fibres-found-tap-water-around-world-study-reveals

Presumably any plastic microparticles found in bottled water are in those deriving from geologically recent sources, such as spring water and shallow boreholes rather than those taken from deep rock formations.

I wonder whether evolutionary processes will enable beings to mutate and absorb the effects, or indeed lead to the creation of new species that will effectively ingest plastic, convert it through some form of acidic reaction, and release harmless waste products or a form of oil. Not in my lifetime, I suspect, so it seems we have to stop making and using plastic and find the right way of disposing of it.

Even if it is not shredded or pulverised, Plastic does, over time, disintegrate so burying it – creating large concentrations of it – is not the answer. The Guardian article mentioned incineration but I doubt we have yet attained a satisfactory standard of non-polluting technology to take that path. And there is no point is substituting for plastic if the alternative is not environmentally better.

It’s a bit more complicated than that, John. The plastics we are familiar with are chemically different and would need different conditions to break them down. When we were discussing the subject someone mentioned Ideonella sakaiensis, a bacterium that could break down PET. Previously the concept of plastic-eating bacteria belonged to science fiction. We have not heard much more about this bug but it would not deal with all the other plastics that find their way into the environment.

Even the times quoted for natural degradation of plastics are misleading. Recently we have seen a figure of 250 years quoted, but that is under ideal conditions, and in practice some plastics could survive 1000 years or more.

I’m not sure that the ability of plastic to disintegrate is the right answer. The single-use bags sold in supermarkets will disintegrate for sure, but do they contribute to the tiny particles that get into the food chain, like microbeads?

I certainly don’t think we should rely on the propensity of plastic to disintegrate as a solution to our waste disposal problems. That was not what I meant. Matter does not disappear and its properties endure indefinitely.

I have a feeling that we need to look again at the possibility of using cardboard, including corrugated cardboard, more in the future [as used to be the case] for containment and protection, so long as it’s not impregnated with moisture-proofing chemicals and adhesives. I think the egg-box is about as good as packaging gets.

I don’t understand why the plastic used for food and liquid containment cannot progressively be standardised so that the waste can be dealt with more consistently without the difficulties of discrimination and separation. There could be particular reasons in some cases that cannot be altered, but in other cases it might be a matter of economy or manufacturing convenience where changes could be made.

One headline I found: Scientists Have Discovered A Bacteria That Has Evolved To Eat Plastic

How else could the bacteria evolve? What happens when it runs out of food, does it evolve to start munching other stuff? We don’t always have a good track record of introducing one species to control another species.

I forgot to mention that problem, Alfa, but you are right that we need to be careful about introduction of new species. Some plants that we have imported have become invasive species.

Even if bacteria that consume plastics naturally evolve or are created by genetic engineering they will not act on plastics in the home because they need moisture. I have samples of genuinely biodegradable plastic dating from the 90s and they have survived in storage, though they would break down in weeks or months in damp soil or in water.

Of course we have plastic pipes and plastic-coated cables underground, so bugs that degrade plastic could create mayhem.

John – I would support standardisation of packaging, though I’m not sure how this would be achieved without legislation.

With hindsight, perhaps the introduction of polystyrene should not have been permitted because so much of the waste is still not recycled.

Moisture-proofing is a significant problem. During this sort of discussion it is often suggested that supermarkets etc replace plastic bags with paper, but a paper carrier uses a lot of material and unless impregnated with wax or other chemicals to withstand a little rain it is not fit for use by shoppers. These additives make composting of paper waste much more difficult.

I hope we are all wary of newspaper reports but even if we focus on basic information such as plastic pollution being a worldwide issue and it’s something that has reached the press I think it’s useful. In general, the Guardian seems reasonably good at covering science matters and at least the advertising is not intrusive.

The old greengrocer probably did not have a demand for perfectly ripe mangos and other large fruit that would be damaged easily. The supermarkets have created a demand for these products in their protective cocoons of plastics. I’m still happy to buy mangoes, pears etc in an unripe state and let it sit for a week or more to ripen.

Our town has a weekly market and when it is closing down there is often a fair amount of waste fruit in evidence.

That is true. We lived simpler lives without water melons, mangoes and with just the occasional pineapple and coconut. We learnt to enjoy what was seasonal. There is no doubt our choice has expanded immeasurably. Strawberries in January! – unheard of years ago, but these forced fruits raised under even more plastic are not very nice wherever they come from.

There is inevitably a degree of waste with any fruit and veg trade, partly because the produce is fragile, perishable, and some needs trimming. Some stall-holders let people scavenge among the waste and the birds have a good peck. I wonder whether the market vegetable waste goes to compost or landfill; I guess it gets swept up with the other litter and is tipped, but it’s not good to put organic waste in holes in the ground. in fact it is questionable whether any waste should go to landfill.

I absolutely agree, John. Next time you are in Waitrose, have a look at the fruit & veg displays and almost certainly you will see some unfamiliar produce that some will pay high prices for and others will experience when the price has been reduced by 80% for immediate sale. Environmentally, this is unsustainable. The reason that I’m opposed to consumerism and capitalism has little to do with politics and much more to do with the need to live more sustainable lives.

Perhaps the problem might have to get worse before it gets better. It looks as if there will be major changes in the cars we buy in coming years. Electric cars are flavour of the month, without sufficient thought to the environmental cost of battery manufacture and disposal, or to where electricity is coming from in a country with limited renewable energy supplies. Maybe a higher priority should be to cut down on travel rather than look to driverless cars where people can work while commuting large distances.

Time after time, everyone jumps on the bandwagon to manage the end result, when more energy needs to put into solving the source of problems first.

Doesn’t make such good headlines I suppose.

Consumerism – we are all consumers and have minds of our own; if we did not buy wasteful stuff it would not be such a problem. Education might help, but many people presumably do not care.

Travelling less is certainly something I not only support – I’ve commented on the waste that longer-distance commuting creates in time and resources – but believe will be curtailed of necessity. We must reduce energy consumption.

There are solutions, Malcolm, but many of them interfere with personal freedom. Education is only effective if those receiving it are receptive.

I’m sure I’m not the only one who survives without buying bottled water.

alfa, “manage the end result. I totally agree. we need to reduce packaging to a workable minimum, ensure it can be sorted easily and recycled, and, i think, charge retailers for the packaging waste they produce. Simply trying to deal with the current levels of packaging is no way forward, neither for dealing with waste not for sustainability.

The retailers will obviously pass on the charges to their customers. It’s not that different from introducing an environmental charge to cover the costs of disposal of waste, in the same way that garages charge for disposal of tyres, waste oil, etc. That’s what I suggested earlier in the Conversation.

Yes, they will pass on charges however they are applied, but it might encourage them to reduce waste to keep any charges down. I’m not sure what is meant by an environmental charge; I’m proposing charging directly for the amount of waste they generate in a way that might penalise them.

I’m keen that any scheme is transparent so that customers can see what they are being charged for waste disposal. That might influence buying choices such as loose produce and fruit in plastic cradle packs. The term environmental charge or disposal charge is commonly used by garages and fast-fit centres in relating to the charge for disposal of oil, tyres etc.

I don’t see a waste charge as an excuse to simply keep on packaging as now. I want to see the excess and inappropriate packaging reduced. The results will be clearly visible to consumers. Whether we need legislation is a matter to look at.

The packaging that is sent to waste would be charged for. Given the competitive nature of food retailing, and hopefully public opinion, I would hope that will be an incentive. By all means publish the costs imposed on individual retailers.

I would like to see as many ideas as possible put forward that show inappropriate packaging and propose alternatives. We should aim to reduce it to a minimum and find ways of ensuring that what is then sent to waste can be dealt with in useful ways, not just buried or burned. I hope Which? will join with contributors, recyclers, retailers and packaging suppliers to see how best we can progress.

When I go shopping, they let me discard the plastic wrapping in the store for recylcing and they jus scan the barcodes. This is at iceland

Ian, I agree with much of the article summarises and particularly in respect of a distinctive link between increasing individualism and protectionism among society’s more wealthy.

You notice the difference when making regional comparisons and the collective mindset of their inhabitants. I am not sure how relevant that is in making rational decisions as to where people throw their rubbish but you only need to observe the state of the grass verges when travelling on motorways to establish the collective mindset of a country’s regard for its own welfare.

Rational thought as applied to global warming is quite complex but it
involves certain aspects such as increasing technological reliance and complacency, a process of an evolutionary nature leading to brain atrophy and narcissistic thought patterns.

Rational thought at a deeper and perhaps more worrying level is a combined interaction between the unconscious, the subconscious and the conscious mind that ultimately determines the outcome of all ones decisions. For more info on this subject, log onto: themindunleashed.com – The Conscious. The Subconscious and the Unconscious – How does it all work?

Ones culture and geographical location is also relevant.
For example, visitors to Japan will notice how litter free and clean everywhere is and also the extent of the collective mentality in such a densely populated country is remarkable, which could be attributed to its frequent earthquake and tsunami prone threats. Also it is the only country to have experienced the horrors of two nuclear explosions, a catastrophic event that has left a perpetual imprint on its peoples mindset that life on this planet is not sustainable indefinitely.

Plastic waste has now become a threat to all life on this planet. A wake up call is long overdue for those individuals who still think global warming is for another time perhaps on another planet.

When do we place the environmental impact of of the way we live ahead of commercial decisions?

We need to provide incentives to commerce, possibly legislation, because most consumers don’t appear to care – at least not in a way that makes them take positive action. Otherwise we would not buy the products some complain about. However, it requires thinking about the long term consequences but beginning with short term fixes. I see no point in making promises about packaging that might happen by 2042 when we could, if we got down to it, make substantial changes now.

I can see the need for legislation, but what I’m not sure what incentives could be given.

I am optimistic that recycling could be improved by standard bin colours and clearer information about what can be recycled, but a harder problem is to encourage shoppers not to buy fruit in cradle-packs, mushrooms in film-coated plastic trays, etc.

There are some fairly obvious examples of obvious waste, such as packaged bananas, that deserve to be banned.

Incentives (or disincentives if you prefer) could be charging retailers for what goes to waste, what can be recycled, and what cannot.

I’d prefer to see us cut down on the need for recycling and having national recycling collection rules for all councils to abide by.

Persuading shoppers can be by educating some on waste packaging, cost savings, or perhaps cost surcharges if packaging is used; If you want to put 4 peaches in a protective pack, and have not brought your own, have them available to purchase.

This is what I referred to as an environmental charge, and there are useful precedents.

Waste can be in several forms – usefully recyclable (say steel, aluminium, PET) directly into similar uses, recyclable but degraded (some plastics), waste that can be burned for energy (not necessarily good, but not all bad), waste that goes to landfill (bad). So an incentive to retailers, after being incentivised to reduce waste, could be to ensure the packaging they use is recyclable to the best level possible, and charge accordingly.

Maybe if exporting waste were banned totally we might see more immediate results in the UK?

Poor thing. It looks lonely. 🙁

Nature surrounds bananas in a protective biodegradable skin that can be removed without touching the bit we eat. Thankfully my local Morrisons does not do this.

Here is a banana multipack without unnecessary packaging. Most supermarkets sell them.

An example I had already found, Alfa, although mine was bigger, cost 16p, and overlapped the tray. It is these sort of nonsensical examples, as well as less extreme ones, I’d like us to show to illustrate how packaging can be eliminated or substantially reduced. Whatever we end up having to send to waste, the less the better so eliminating or minimising it in the first place seems a good starting point.

More examples please.

I found a “drinking coconut” in M&S – a small nut standing on a thick card tube wrapped in film with ringpull and straw.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soeBvSSTNrM

This website suggests that we complain to Trading Standards if we find examples of excessive packaging: http://www.lesswaste.org.uk/reduce/think-packaging/

I cannot see TS taking any action unless there is deliberate misrepresentation.

Maybe Which? could help promote good examples of how pointless waste can be avoided.

I would buy that banana!

I am in touch with Which? to see how we can all work together to minimise waste and maximise the effectiveness of any subsequent recycling needed. I hope they will see this as a cause worth actively supporting.

Great. It’s something that we can all relate to and see the need for change.

I think we need to understand the issue from the retailer’s point of view. In any supermarket you will find a collection of single bananas. Anyone who wants four bananas is likely to pick a bunch of four, rather than take four single ones from the bottom shelf. All the supermarket can do is to put the single bananas with the sandwiches and snacks, in which case customers might buy one. Alternatively they could slip one in with a bunch of three in a plastic bag. The worst sort of customer is one who takes a bunch of five, leaving one lonely banana that may remain on the bottom shelf until it becomes food waste.

Like Larry, I would buy a single banana, especially if the ones in bunches will take a few days to ripen.

I don’t like ripe bananas so only buy 1 or 2 at a time. There are usually single bananas lying around, but if not I take a couple off a big bunch and no bag required.

And they quickly go over-ripe so unless you like banana cake, best to buy them as you need them.

I place unripe bananas in a room that is usually unheated and they will last a week or two at this time of year. I take two at a time into the kitchen. To ripen bananas rapidly, place them in a bag and leave them in a warm room. Ripening bananas produce ethene (ethylene), which accelerates ripening.

When I do the shopping, I pick individual bananas according to their ripeness looking forward over the next three days. This helps clear up the left-overs on the bottom shelf and gives us two perfectly just-under-ripe bananas each day.

I also select the satsumas that have green coloration in their skins because they are just as nice as the others. A lot of waste is because some shoppers are unduly fussy and judge things by their appearance. Stores could do more to guide customers though. Their ‘fruit & veg teams’ could also learn to handle fruit more carefully to prevent damage and bruising; they do tend to chuck them about a bit and to tip them into bins in some supermarkets.

Bananas don’t take much handling to make them look as if they have been in the wars. I often put one or two with a packed lunch and if one comes back it’s often quite bruised.

A Tesco store near where I used to live was offering free fruit for children and this included single bananas.

I will bear this in mind. I always seem to discover a stock of bananas on the morning that I’m going on holiday.

Yeah I do that to, because I live in an older house, there’s an unheated larder

In order to make this worthwhile, we need some indication that Which? will make use of the information and how this might happen. For example, if the first step was to push for councils to adopt a uniform system for recycling, we could collect evidence of the problem of contaminated waste caused by putting the wrong materials in recycling bins and the extent to which this restricts effective recycling and the costs involved.

I have separately asked Which? if they are interested in a cooperative look at waste, and taking proposals further. In general I think they could use Convos and their commenters more usefully than seems to be the case currently.

As Patrick T rightly points out, a number of organisations are involved with waste – WRAP for example. I’d like the Which? thrust to be reducing unnecessary packaging – start at source, in other words and with the retailers.

Whatever the focus, it would be useful to know how Which? are likely to use the information. I could probably help with scientific articles that are not available to the general public.

From Patrick’s link above: “Three-quarters of the waste generated in the United States is recyclable, according to the Environmental Protection Agency. Despite that, only 30 percent gets recycled.”

That’s an interesting observation. Thinking about my own behaviour, I don’t recycle paper that it contaminated with food etc. and I don’t recycle bottles of cooking oil, since they are difficult to clean. I’m never sure what to do with a plastic bottle of milk where the milk has gone off and what is stuck to the sides will not rinse out. If I’m uncertain about whether plastic can be recycled I put it in with non-recyclable waste, which is the best option but in some cases it’s the wrong decision.

Shame on you Wavechange 🙂 A quick shake with a tbs of White vinigar will quickly clear all milk solids from plastic milk bottles and one drop of washing up liquid soap and hot water soon neutralises your oily bottles. A good shake gets rid of a lot of suppressed negative feelings and, if the mood permits, an accompanying dance theme coming from the radio adds a bit of light entertainment to what amounts to quite a dreary routine household chore!

It’s not at home but a place owned by our charity. Volunteers bring milk and there’s no fridge. I have used hot water and detergent but some of my colleagues just throw the milk bottles in the waste, sometimes with the contents. 🙁 It’s difficult to believe how daft some people are.

Why not start a trend Wavechange 🙂

I do my best, Beryl, but it’s easy to be branded as a crank.

If it helps to save the planet keep cranking Wavrchange.

It takes a crank to start a revolution… 🙂

Very good!

🙂 The problem is that what we do as individuals is hardly likely to affect the behaviour of the majority.

You’re right, Wavechange . . . we have to make it a fashion trend and I am always perplexed by what makes these start [ripped jeans, for example – where did that come from and who saw it coming?]. I am not too despondent, however: constant dripping wears away stone.

Fashion is generated by the clothing producers to make us buy stuff we don’t need and consign other garments to waste. I have naturally-ripped jeans from 3 or 4 years of wear, so don’t need to buy them.

If one or more major grocery retailers are persuaded to substantially change their packaging approach – reduced packaging, reduced material types for example – many consumers may well just take it in their stride and adapt to it.

Some retailers sell much fruit and veg loose so you can select how much you need, weigh and label it at their scales, and avoid a stack of unnecessary trays and plastic covers in your bin. If you need a protective pack then, like carrier bags, these could be sold separately.

We all have cookware for oven and microwave (or could add it to our kitchen paraphernalia) so why do we need food in their own cook-in trays?

Well, Iceland [the retailer] has broken out in front of the pack so it will be interesting to see who follows and who is still in the starting blocks. It will also be interesting to see how much such action will convert into higher sales and public sentiment; those are probably the only things that will drive a change of practice.

Iceland has only made the pledge in respect of its own lines, of course: the big battle is against the manufacturers. There is an environmental cost to this: putting sauce back in glass bottles will increase fuel consumption in haulage due to the greater weight and the manufacture of glass probably requires much more energy than making plastic.

Addendum : I hadn’t realised this story had already been reported seven hours ago [see Alfa’s, Hannah’s and Malcolm’s comments below], so apologies for the duplication.

We don’t have an Iceland in town or anywhere nearby, but I will make a point of looking if their plans start to be realised.

I expect that Iceland will continue to sell raw meat in film-covered plastic trays though there may be benefits in selecting the best plastics for recycling purposes.

If they need to be in trays at all they could be aluminium which is better to recycle and does not degrade.

As discussed above, a retailer can change public habits. This announcement will take 5 years to implement, and only on their own label products. A good initiative, but why does it take so long? I hope their paper-based alternative to plastic will be recyclable, as many treated paper products are not. And do we still need to pack oranges and apples in nets? I’m quite happy buying fruit and veg loose. But abolishing unnecessary packaging – and cook-in trays as an example – is the start we need.

It would be useful if the British Retail Consortium adopted a constructive approach to packaging. It is true that we need a balance between food waste (life and damage) and suitable protective packaging. But do we need to film wrap a whole cucumber? We can over-complicate change by trying to cover all angles at once – we are still talking about a product recall system 3 years from the initial report. We can tackle unnecessary packaging now.

Sainsbury’s half-cucumbers are double-wrapped in plastic because the shrink-wrapped whole cucumber is cut in half [approximately] and overwrapped with loose plastic film.

Perhaps it’s time the industry grew half-size cucumbers.

Good idea!

At least Sainsbury’s only charge 50% for half a cucumber unlike Tesco who charge 60% or more.

Most of these we have already proposed.
Why do you buy a jar every time too purchase instant coffee?
We need more than to suggest, we need to work with the different industries involved to develop proposals.

Yes – when discussing recycling and cutting down waste, a lot of ideas are recycled, and having different organisations saying the same thing may achieve progress.

I get through a lot of instant coffee (plus real stuff) but don’t see an easy alternative to buying 100g jars or 150g refill packs when these are available.

Why not refill packs? We fill our tea caddy and coffee tin from packets of leaves and grounds. I could fill a cereal container from a bag of cornflakes – I don’t need a box. Working together would pool expertise and achieve far more, assuming a working consensus was achieved, than going it alone.

I have suggested to Which? that if it uses member’s and contributor’s input with its own resources, and works cooperatively with, for example, WRAP, the recyclers, packaging producer and,the retailers we might begin to put a staged and pragmatic programme together to attack waste packaging. We don’t have to wait until we have a total agreed solution; we can start step by step. A big first step would be to reduce what would be agreed to be unnecessary packaging, of whatever material.

Simply replacing plastic with cardboard is a move forward, but not if the cardboard packaging is really unnecessary in the first place, and if as a waste product it has no further use. That just eats up trees, fills holes in the ground or pollutes the air when it is burned.

My big first step is to ask Which? to push for councils to standardise what can be recycled. In the meantime, I might write to my local council.

Regarding coffee, instant coffee is freeze-dried or spray-dried and is highly hygroscopic – it absorbs atmospheric moisture rapidly. An opened refill pack will spoil quickly unless sealed or stored in a sealed container. I suspect that this is why manufacturers don’t sell many of them.

Yes, we should standardise the way waste is collected nationally, how it is segregated, and to ensure it is all properly dealt with in constructive ways.

However, why do all this and not attack the key problem – too much unnecessary packaging in the first place, and too many materials. We don’t want to have to export it, burn it, dump it in the ground, Dealing with those issues would reduce the pressure on recycling facilities, make councils collection easier, and get to the root of the problem rather than just letting us carry on as usual.

Why not do both?

That is what I am suggesting. I am simply suggesting the priority should be to reduce waste at source, then deal with what is necessary in better and more efficient ways.

I have not looked, but I’m sure the information is available somewhere. I wonder what are the most common forms of packaging waste, and what proportion are technically usefully recyclable? For example, where do egg cartons, polythene milk bottles, PET drinks bottle, glass bottles, cardboard food packaging, black PET food trays figure? If we could see what were the biggest problem we could maybe see where to start.

I look round our food supermarket and see a lot of loose fruit and vegetables that you put into polythene bags, but then many more of the same that are presented in clear plastic containers, fibre trays with plastic lids (apples, pears, grapes, cherries), plastic nets of oranges. I see tackling this as straightforward and, if people need a plastic tray to put their produce in, let them buy one separately.

I thought it was to reduce pilferage of high-value small items as they go round carousels and tracks in the sorting hubs. Since I can reuse Amazon boxes I am not complaining. I wish I could reuse their cardboard book wrappers.

Is there not some limit to how many cardboard boxes you can make use of?

We are not overstocked with boxes at the moment – there is always something to be stored, or taken somewhere else. I gave a quantity to a neighbour recently as they were moving.

Tax on wasteful packing methinks. That is plainly stupid in the extreme.