Two-pin plugs – it’s just not British

Most people are like you without the knowledge to recognise faulty items or faulty solutions, and the ability to deal with them correctly. That is what consumer law is meant to protect. It is no good having a return and refund policy to deal with an illegal and potentially unsafe item. The supply of such items should be stopped to protect the public.

I’m glad your post sparked off (re-ignited) this Convo and hopefully we might get some expert legal advice and proposed actions from Which?, who instigated this Convo in 2012. If there is nothing they can do, telling us would be useful (if worrying).

If you go direct to an overseas supplier then I’d suggest you take responsibility for the item you import. However, if you are guided to an overseas supplier by Amazon, through their market place, where they presumably make money, then I would have thought Amazon have some responsibility for the products that are purchased with their involvement. It is this area I would like Which? to look at particularly.

Hope your refund goes through smoothly. We’ve a Panasonic microwave that performs well (actually, an internal fuse did blow but John Lewis had it collected and repaired quite quickly).

Hi Ellie – Please could you take a photo of the plug on the oven/grill before it is collected. It could be useful to send it to Which? and maybe they could put it on this page so that we know what sort of plug you have been given.

Thanks Ellie. I will ‘report’ your comment. 🙂

Oops. Sorry I missed that, Lauren. 🙁

The offending plug seems to be a CEE 7/7 plug, which has side Earth connection strips but also fits French sockets that have an Earth pin in the socket: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#CEE_7.2F7_plug

If fitted into an adaptor without Earth contacts, there is the risk of electrocution if a fault develops.

Sorry Lauren. I had missed that too.

Market Place according to US sources accounts for 40 % of Amazon sales , in the USA its counter-fitting that is big business since Amazon opened up the market to China . To get an overall idea of the Amazon Market Place and an insight into its business practices go to : http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/08/amazons-chinese-counterfeit-problem-is-getting-worse.html I know some will say-well how does that apply to 2 pin plugs ? well think –where will third party sellers get their goods at the cheapest price , and where do most electrical products for domestic use come from ?? – the Land of Built to a Price and what products are cheaper to buy wholesale ?? – 2 pin products for the biggest market- the EU (outside the USA ) , its only natural that a buyer would want to make the biggest profit , why insist Chinese manufactures produce minority products at a higher cost -bigger production line – bigger discount on mass produced products thats always been the case . By the way I found a US website with a long list of Chinese “knock-off” companies -naming them when would you see that in the UK ?????

I have been told that it’s not difficult to find counterfeit products on the Amazon website, Duncan, so I decided to have a go at just looking through product images. I found this example within minutes: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Metre-Kettle-Mains-Power-Cable/dp/B01GG2P64U/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_pl_foot_top?ie=UTF8 Not a single reviewer has picked up on the fact that it is obviously counterfeit because it has a partially-sleeved Earth pin. That’s dangerous because the plastic rather than metal part of the pin would contact the Earth connection in the socket.

It’s also not suitable for a kettle because it is fused at only 5 Amps. People might buy one for use with a kettle and find it blows when the kettle is switched on. It obviously has other uses so the description is wrong.

Your right John that advert Wavechange posted just shows up the total disregard of Amazon in regard to British public safety . I just checked my fast boil kettle and its 3 Kilowatts thats over 12 AMPS , even a normal kettle in the UK is at least 2 Kilowatts -8 AMPS . Thats not all one of the charity shops I visit had a Chinese made “kettle” plug+cable that somebody had handed in because they thought it was dangerous , I was given it for free when I pointed this out and when I took it home I measured the cross-sectional area of the cable conductors and if it had been used the actual cable would have overheated due to lack of current carrying capacity . We will now find out who has the most power -Amazon or the British Public, disgraceful doesn’t come close . By the way Amazon dont get away with this in their own country-America they are VERY strict there in regards to electrical safety and Amazon knows it .

These leads are sold for computer, printers, etc. They are often called ‘kettle leads’ even though they will not fit kettles because of the lack of a recess in the plug, which a proper kettle lead will have. The lowest review rating refers to the fuse blowing when used on a kettle, so maybe they have a counterfeit kettle.

One of the reasons why the US escapes some counterfeit products is that they use a lower mains voltage than most companies. It’s not just stricter standards.

To clarify, what I meant is that the US escapes some of the dangerous and counterfeit electrical products imported into Europe because the US uses a different mains voltage.

I seem to have a box full of them [and other handy cables and connectors] and had no idea they were called ‘kettle leads’.

One of the primary functions of local trading standards/consumer protection departments was to keep a look out for counterfeit products, especially hazardous or potentially harmful ones, and disrupt the supply chain. It seems that the supply chain has been institutionalised now and is a mainstream activity. I would have expected the legitimate industries that are being undersold to have risen up and pressed the government to restore proper enforcement capabilities [a government obedient to big business would surely have done that]. I believe protection from counterfeit goods is one of the priority areas supposed to be addressed by National Trading Standards but they operate in an obscure and largely unaccountable way so it is not easy to see whether they are focussed on that function.

To say something positive, Trading Standards put in a lot of effort to deal with the dangerous hoverboards. There were various problems including plugs with no mains fuse. I suspect that dealing with consignments of dangerous and counterfeit goods forms a substantial part of their work.

Whoever developed the standards for these plugs did not think that the leads might get mixed up and a kettle lead with a 13 amp fuse could be connected to a low power appliance that should have a smaller fuse. With a tiny amount of thought, this could have been avoided.

Sorry, I somehow missed your comment @wavechange. I got a full refund which was processed very quickly. However, when I watched the terrible tragedy at Grenfell Tower and heard the words “faulty fridge” and “it’s only a matter of time before something catastrophic happens”, this thread did cross my mind. Does it take a terrible tragedy to occur before something is done?

That’s good news, but I expect that products with the wrong plugs will continue to be sold via the Amazon website. There’s little we can do as individuals. Sooner or later there will be an accident shown to be linked to use of a product with the wrong sort of plug. Until then, I expect that Amazon will continue to break the law.

We may never know the cause of the horrific fire but fridges and freezers commonly use isobutane as refrigerant. It’s in a sealed system but if there is a leak – which is not uncommon in fridges and freezers – there is the danger of a gas explosion. The old CFC refrigerants were not a fire risk but believed to damage the ozone layer. Safe alternative refrigerants are available, but isobutane is cheap. 🙁

Well something must have struck a cord in Amazon,s corporate board room if they are now saying its illegal to sell this in the UK–Which at work here ? Its much cheaper to sell a mass produced item (for the continent ) than one specifically for the UK so money is involved. Its down to supply+demand . It depends who you bought it off Rob was it Market Place ? but yes something COULD be done but we are talking at government level.

I think Rob made it clear the product came direct from Amazon, not from an Amazon Marketplace trader, so they seem to be acknowledging that they are at risk of prosecution themselves even though they continue to deny any liability in respect of a third party sale that they have hosted, promoted and serviced.

This is another outstanding issue in the Which? waiting list. No more government action is required; the law is clear and being broken.

Perhaps I misinterpreted Rob’s statement when he said “I clarified several times that the item was sent straight from Amazon, there’s no 3rd party seller involved, etc.“. Whatever, it was an illegal sale.

We have switched 13A sockets under the worktops with fused switches above the worktops and I think that is the better arrangement. I have never experienced a blown fuse and the circuits are also protected by RCD’s at the consumer unit. Even if a fuse in the plug were to blow, it is not a huge problem to pull out the appliance in order to identify and hopefully fix the cause of the problem, replace the fuse, test the appliance, clean the area around and behind the appliance, and push it back under the counter. Usually any hosepipes are long enough to enable this without disconnection. I think the safety advantages of moulded-on plugs should not be underestimated.

Graham-The molded plugs were fitted due to danger of electrocution by the clamp not holding the wires in place , many versions of holding the cable were tried and this is what they ended up with for businesses to sell to customers . Legally cutting off the molded plug would invalidate the guarantee as allowing it would put the company in a difficult legal position if somebody was electrocuted . A switched spur unit like I have to my summer-house /garden shed , which I installed myself , has in- built fuses ( fuse wire-each circuit ) as well as an isolater .

The arrangement described by John is I believe the current practice for supplying appliances in kitchens and utility rooms. It is convenient when pulling out appliances for cleaning, repair or replacement. I would prefer sockets behind appliances to be protected against moisture, and maybe that will be a requirement at some time in the future.

I agree that moulded plugs are a safer option but would like to see the BS 1363/A (impact-resistant) plugs with a flat surface suitable for labelling. Labelling above-counter isolation switches is easier and is helpful when friends and family are visiting.

Duncan – I don’t approve of people cutting off plugs and fitting re-wireable plugs because most people are not very good at fitting plugs and choosing appropriate fuses. 🙁 Nevertheless, I don’t see it as a valid reason for invalidating a guarantee if the fault is unrelated to replacing the plug. If someone was electrocuted then obviously the possibility of an incorrectly fitted plug should be considered but examination of the product should establish whether this was a factor or not. It would be interesting to know how my speculations would fare in a court.

I guess I am of an age where fitting a plug was a perfectly normal domestic skill to acquire. I do recall a type of plug that accommodated all three wires of equal length and that and a proper wire stripping tool undoubtedly makes the process easier. I guess I could have changed the plate on the under-counter spur outlet to a 13A socket and kept the moulded on plug (John’s arrangement), but I didn’t have one available and was under time pressure to restore a working washing machine to our home!
I also see Johns point that a water/splashproof socket would be better around any plumbing.
Re the main subject, last I knew it is perfectly legal to import an electrical product from elsewhere in the EU (and probably any country). I have bought a couple of appliances from Amazon’s German website as they were significantly cheaper. In such an instance I have to change the EU to a UK plug. I don’t see any difficultly in doing that. Similarly, I have occasionally had to replace a plastic plug that had been accidentally damaged or broken.
Sorry Duncan, but I winced when I read your reference to “a danger of electrocution” when wiring a plug. Next we will be requiring signs at pedestrian road crossings saying “danger of death”. The risk from wiring plugs comes from NOT knowing what you are doing. Given that one day it becomes necessary, we all need to be taught how to correctly do that and then accept responsibility for our actions. Leastways, I am fine with that.

The first plug designed to take three conductors of the same length was (as far as I’m aware) produced by MK. It was a poor design for two reasons. Firstly, it is essential that there is slack in the Earth wire so that it is last to break if the cable is pulled through the cord grip or the latter is not used. Secondly, the MK plug gripped the outer sheath of the cable between two pieces of plastic. With thin cables, the cable grip was ineffective and with thick cables the grip was difficult to use and many users failed to use it, leaving the three conductors unanchored and visible outside the plug. In other respects, MK has done a great deal to produce high quality and safe products.

I have seen many examples of plugs that have been wired unsafely and was glad to see the introduction of products fitted with plugs – both replaceable and later the moulded plugs.

Some common sense here Graham – which is what we should be using. Of course some of us are competent enough to wire up plugs, replace light bulbs and install central heating. A couple of my appliances plug into sockets on the underside of the worktops, fed from switched fused units on the wall. They will not be subject to any water ingress.

It all makes you wonder how any of us survive driving on the public highway 🙂

In reply to Graham- been there-got the T-shirt , spent the 50,s onward changing plugs on every type of domestic equipment and electronic equipment , spent my life repairing/building electronic equipment . Started off with the old bayonet fitting plug to attach to a light socket – no power points in house then 2 pin plugs where if you got it the wrong way round and was repairing an old valve radio with a non-isolated chassis live could be terminated on that chassis . Got the shocks , same with most British TV,s (CRT ) , then 3 pin pin round as Wavechange mentions a few good tugs and live could detach from its brass termination or earth . Then ,as Wavechange says MK plugs worked on every type available – bakelite- plastic – rubber- yes rubber came in various colours , fibre clamp/ steel clamp / tapering V formation . The best mains plugs of the era were ex.WD types brilliant types of holders and clamps of many varieties used on ex WD communication receivers /test equipment . What I was (trying ) to get at -yes you can do it but the business world isn’t happy about you doing so and even the electrical federation recommend molded plugs . Its okay for the likes of me with very thick skin and a high emf -body resistance who has survived shocks that would kill many 1000,s of times but females with fine moist skin could be killed very easily , one of my aunts was blown across the kitchen due to a lose connection on a mains plug.

Graham – If I could just take up one the points you made above . . . You wrote “it is perfectly legal to import an electrical product from elsewhere in the EU (and probably any country). I have bought a couple of appliances from Amazon’s German website as they were significantly cheaper. In such an instance I have had to change the EU to a UK plug“. While the first part is no doubt true – importing into the UK products with two-pin plugs purchased while abroad – the corollary is not, and this is our bone of contention with Amazon and its MarketPlace traders. It is illegal to sell or to expose for sale in the UK any electrical appliance that does not conform to the UK plugs and sockets regulations unless, in the context of mains plugs, it is fitted with an approved converter device which is attached to the two-pin plug in such a way that it can only be detached with a tool. That is not the exact wording but is what the regs mean. Ideally we want people to be able to use and enjoy their electrical products safely and conveniently from the moment they take them out of the box and not have to learn the hard way or the hazardous way.

By the way, it was not me who made the point about water-resistant plugs and sockets behind water-using appliances. I wasn’t clever enough to think of that point which is relevant where sockets might be at skirting level. Modern installations place the sockets at approximately 50 cm above floor level, but as we know, for many people that is not good enough and they run a four-way extension lead along the floor behind the plinths to connect their appliances to a distant socket.

As far as I know you can purchase an electrical product directly from abroad (not through he likes of Amazon) and it will arrive with a European plug quite legally. It is your responsibility to deal with it. But in my view, if you buy an electrical appliance through a UK distributor, it must comply with UL law and have either a UK plug or a proper adaptor.

Also as far as I know Which? have never answered the questions asked of them – why they do not pursue Amazon legally when 2 pin plugs are provided on goods that they are responsible for – either through Amazon or their market place.

I think that’s right, Malcolm, but there could be a technical legal issue over “exposure for sale in the UK”. If the product was on a foreign website in that country’s language and currency and clearly not aimed at the UK market I cannot see a problem and, as you say, the buyer must accept responsibility for any incompatibility with UK systems or non-conformity with UK standards and regulations at their own risk.

People are obviously going to use an adapter, aren’t they? Or try to plug them into a bathroom shaver/toothbrush socket.

I consider a projecting adapter and continental plug as just another potential hazard as they can easily get knocked partly out of the socket.

The Europlug will fit a modern shaver socket, which is designed to accept either a UK shaver plug or a Europlug. UK shaver adapters will not accept a Europlug.

I suppose it’s alright to plug a 1 amp wall charger into a bathroom shaver socket but I don’t like the idea. I don’t suppose the water ingress protection on the conductor flex on the device being charged would be as good as on a product designed for use in a bathroom. When I wrote “adapter” I meant a Continental>UK travel adapter which can be picked up anywhere quite cheaply rather than a proper shaver adapter.

Not at Screwfix (UK) John – rated – 20VA approx 20 watts at 230V AC thats approx – 100 MA not 1000 MA .

No, that’s right, Duncan, but we were discussing the Energizer products that Wavechange posted a link to [see above]. I was looking at a couple of two-pin wall-chargers on their site that were rated at 1 Amp 5 Watts. I did specifically say “plug a 1 Amp wall charger into a bathroom shaver socket“.

Do the Screwfix products you mentioned have two-pin plugs? I should be surprised if they did.

I don’t have a clue why they are described as wall-chargers. To me they are just chargers.

They are made for two pin plugs (shaver sockets ) John although they dont seem to sell them. Its “American ” to describe them as “wall-chargers ” thats where it originally came from it took me a while on American websites to reach that conclusion , same as the US-speak- “wall-warts ” . I told you “Americanisation ” of the UK. I can only surmise that as America runs on “autos ” and cars have battery generators (chargers ) they wanted to differentiate between the two . They have a whole string of hard to understand colloquial “American English ” that defies logic.

John – David Peacock (our Socketman) has written articles on the inadequacy of travel adaptors, including the ‘universal’ type widely sold in shops.

Duncan – I rather like some of the US terminology such as ‘wall-warts’. If I met a US visitor who wanted to fill up their car with gas, I would be tempted to send them to a filling station that sold LPG.

Yes, and Socketman has also explained very lucidly the illegality of the Amazon MarketPlace selling and supplying products with two-pin plugs into the UK. I tried to find his comments quoting the regulations but it was taking too long.

Duncan – I am getting a bit confused, and its not the American terminology that’s doing it. My points are (a) only products designed to be used in bathrooms, like shavers and toothbrushes, should be plugged into a shaver socket – the pin spacing is slightly different to a Europlug so a Europlug can only be used in one by misuse; (b) shaver adaptors are available to enable a shaver or toothbrush with various 2-pin plug formations to be inserted into a UK 3-pin 13A socket but they do not step down the voltage and rely on the fusing at 1 Amp to make them safe; the pin holes are in a vertical alignment to distinguish them from other forms of adaptor; I regard them as a temporary accessory that should not be used for any other type of device; and (c) two-pin plugs should not be used in UK 13A sockets by means of multiple or combination adaptors since, so far as I am aware, there is no compliance approval for such use and many have no earthing provision for continental plugs with earth contacts; the widely available travel adaptors are not satisfactory as the electrical connexion is loose.I consider it best not to compromise by attempting to make an imperfect connexion.

My view is that that the Energizer chargers with 2-pins, shown in Wavechange’s link should not be sold into the UK market. The problem we now have is that, once one trader starts doing it, others follow and customers assume it is compliant and safe.

I realise I slipped into American in previous posts by using “adapter” instead of “adaptor”. Some American words and usages are, of course, original English forms that went over with the Pilgrim Fathers and later settlers and have not been changed.A lot of the Americanisms in car terminology [like hood (for bonnet), trunk (for boot),and dashboard (for fascia or instrument panel)] derive from the components of horse-drawn carriages which were the chief form of transport in 19th century America.

The problem with shaver sockets is that despite being marked ‘Shavers only’, these sockets are often used for other purposes. I well remember being at a meeting in Davos and having breakfast with a group of people from a US company that was sponsoring my research at the time. One did not have an adaptor to charge the laptop he would be using to give his presentation and he was told to use the shaver socket in his hotel bathroom, and the others agreed. :-(nnI don’t know how common this is but – as Duncan says – the socket might only be rated at 20W, or 40W at most, well below the requirement for modern laptops. As far as I am aware these sockets have only a single safety devices, such as a self-resetting overheating cutout or a thermistor.

Having taken several apart in the past Wavechange they have, as a safety feature ( bathrooms/water ) a small mains isolating transformer , which , if it doesn’t have a fuse of a small value has built into the Primary winding a “safety thermal fuse ” . The same was built into my Chinese soldering station and when it overheats due to gross under-specification of the SWG of the Primary winding ( not allowing for 10 %+ overload ) it blows making the transformer a good paperweight and earning the company more sales in spares or a new unit .Gone are the good old British Standards when applied to Chinese goods. Your right Wavechange I have a long list of young people plugging laptops into them and blowing the sockets and then having the cheek to complain about it. I also have a webpages on grossly underspec. Chinese illegal imports of electrical equipment bought by importers for “a song ” .

A non-resettable thermal fuse buried in the isolation transformer will of course mean that a shaver socket or power adaptor is scrap if overloaded. A friend had a Christmas decoration that contained a 10W halogen capsule and not having a spare, replaced it with a 20W one, which soon killed the adaptor. Sometimes overloading will just burn out the primary winding, as you say. My problem with these fuses is that there is no way of confirming that they have been fitted other than destructive testing. I do hope manufacturers do check each batch they purchase.

I would be interested to know if you have encountered two-pin plugs used unsafely, Duncan. I have seen overseas students turn up, defeat socket shutters and plug in laptop and mobile phone chargers with two pin plugs. We required students to have their laptops etc. PAT-tested, which picked up this problem, but the message did not always get across to new students.

I’ve just had to replace a shave socket in the main bathroom. It had become very hot to the touch and was emitting a loud buzzing noise. Only ever been used for a beard trimmer and a toothbrush charger.

The overheating is likely to be due to a shorted turn in the primary winding of the isolation transformer. If it is an old model, it may have been designed for short term use rather than for charging toothbrushes etc. I have a Braun/Oral B toothbrush that can take 36 hours to charge and wonder if the manufacturers have ever looked at a modern mobile phone or laptop.

And the buzzing is from insufficient number of laminations and /or low quality steel becoming slack due to the overheating – normal practice in China importers importing cheap products .

Where I work, all foreign visitors (including students) are required to get all personal electrical items PAT tested before they are used.

If they turn up with laptops powered by 3-wire connections, we normally try to lend them proper visitor adaptors (with appropriate) earth connections. When we cannot do that (e.g. because all of our stock is already loaned out) we require them to either provide their own or to not use their devices via our mains.

Some years back one of the church halls where we hold presentations and displays asked users to ensure that all equipment including extension leads is PAT tested. The local library and archive asks visitors to use laptops on battery power or use their computers.

I routinely carry a socket tester and am wary of using extension leads, having found a couple cross connected L to N and others with no Earth continuity.

It’s a very good idea to provide the correct adaptors for visitors.

If it is a safety-marked adaptor and cannot be removed from the 2 pin plug without the use of a tool, I believe it is legal.

The legal requirement is that the correct ‘converter plug’ must be fitted when supplied and not just in the box. A converter plug encloses the two pin plug and cannot be removed without a tool. A detachable adaptor is not permissible.