Are your LED light bulbs burning out too soon?

My suggestion would be to give priority to the lumen rating for LED lamps and consign the wattage to the back of the packaging. It’s still useful for those who are familiar with the light output of old fashioned light bulbs. I have not seen any mention of Lux on any lamp packaging, though I have seen it on some bars of soap. 🙂

Which? brand of LEDs failed within a few minutes, Keith? It’s quite common for products to fail when new, hence shops will usually replace them without question if you have the guarantee. Nevertheless, it should not happen often.

Producing LED replacements for bulbs has been difficult and in some cases impossible. For example we don’t have replacements for tiny halogen capsules or the replacement is considerably larger (e.g. G9 type).

Most people will not understand lumens, but will relate to filament lamp wattage equivalent. Re-education will take time, as with going metric. So wattage equivalent plus lumens for now is my proposal.

I use Metric Leather rather than Lux – the latter not being a measure of light output of course.

Actually I’ve bought tiny LED replcements (from Screwfix I think). Just a little bigger than the halogens, but fitted OK.

I hope you have returned the failed lamps for replacement, Mike. I had not heard of the Crimson brand but some of the Amazon reviews warn of rapid failure.

Found on Facebook:
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Oh dear! I am sorry you have made bad purchases, Mike.

I think you would be well advised to buy replacements from well-known brands in future. I have found Tesco and Philips LED’s satisfactory with no premature failures for ordinary bulb-type lamps [including golf-ball and candle designs].

I have had less success with pre-installed capsule lamps in multi-branch ceiling light fittings but replacing them all with a better brand as soon as the first one fails has been satisfactory.

I have also replaced a few halogen downlighter lamps with Philips LEDs and they are giving good service.

You might need to pay a bit more at the outset but the longer life will repay the expense.

@mikesterland Hi Mike – I hope that you can overcome your problems with LED lamps by switching to other brands. It might be worth checking with neighbours to see if they are having problems in case there is a problem with voltage spikes. It’s best not to have LEDs on the same circuit as fluorescent strip lights, which can cause these spikes.

Best of luck.

Can you provide a reliable source that shows the luminous efficacy of LEDs being lower than fluorescent lamps? I have not seen evidence of this.

I was not aware that anyone has mentioned putting capacitors inline.

Fluorescent lamps have an efficacy (lumens/Watt) of up to around 100. The electronic ballasts used to control them have very low losses. Sticking a capacitor inline, if it had any value at all (and if not already part of the electronic ballast) cannot make them use 40% less power.
Current (white) LEDs are up to around 200 lm/w https://www.lighting.philips.co.uk/consumer/p/led-bulb/8719514343726/specifications

As wavechange asks, please provide information that supports your claim. What type of light bulb do you make?

There are about a hundred LED lamps in our house, in various types of fittings and on for different lengths of time each day. They are split between the lighting and power circuits. One GU10 has failed after six years but it has been on for long periods almost every day. One in another fitting lasts about two years but it is on continuously. There are two large fluorescent lamps on the downstairs lighting circuit as well.

I suggest you ask the retailer to replace them, Andy. If you don’t have the receipt a card statement may provide evidence of purchases. Alternatively you could contact Philips because they have claimed a long life. 15 years corresponds to about 13,000 hours of continuous use.

You’re right it is usually heat, and the consistency of 9 months would suggest this is most likely in your case. It is the nearly always capacitors on the driver/power board rather than the LEDs themselves. Reputable brands bought from reputable companies have better grade capacitors and better thermal management.

Are the fixtures where it fails with the LEDs at the bottom or top of the (ie are they uplight or downlight arrangements?

One other comment – is there a dimmer in the circuit? If so, there could well be an incompatibility between dimmer and LED bulb . That is a minefield.

Direct replacements for old fashioned bulbs and halogen lamps are at risk of overheating, and Roger has highlighted the main reasons. Two ways of reducing the risk of damaging components by heat are to use lower power LEDs (if practical) or replacing fixtures where it is necessary to use a powerful LED lamp, choosing a fixture that promotes good air flow – one that is open at the top and bottom will act like a chimney and create an air flow. It’s important to avoid mixing halogen and LED lamps in the same fixture because the former will cook the electronics in the latter.

The LED lamps in Johnwell’s bathroom vanity unit are likely to have survived because they are well spaced and probably low power.

Separating the LEDs from the drivers certainly makes sense to avoid overheating of the electronics but it might be worth having more than one driver per room. The disadvantage of using a single driver is that if it fails it is not as easy to replace as simply changing a lamp.

When I moved into my present house I promptly replaced the 12V MR16 halogen downlighters in the bathrooms with LEDs but kept the individual drivers rather than running all the LEDs in a room from a single driver. I’m glad I did because one of the drivers died. When it was convenient I connected two lamps to one driver but in meantime the rest of the LEDs carried on working.

While they are neat and considered stylish, I would caution against recessed downlighters from the point of view of the quality of the light they produce, especially in kitchens and bathrooms where they seem to be prolific. Such downlighters produce a downwards cone of light that creates sharp shadows — not good in a bathroom for shaving, applying make-up, and other close work to the face. They provide very little in the way of ambient light to illuminate an area.

In my opinion, a better option is a surface-mounted globe- or bowl-shaped integrated LED fitting with a high lumen specification. This provides both direct and indirect light for overall comfort and functionality. By being below the ceiling there is a substantial amount of diffused light reflected from the ceiling enhancing the overall ambience. They are available with the appropriate moisture ingress protection [IP No.] for all domestic applications and can last a very long time before replacement becomes necessary.

Another thing to watch out for with recessed downlighters, especially when used with halogens, is the risk of fire, especially when used upstairs where there’s loft insulation fitted as with halogen bulbs too much of their heat goes upwards and into the insulation and they can sometimes set it on fire unless it’s cleared from above each fitting, or else fire safe fittings should be used, this is especially important where older less fire resistant insulation is still in place. And another important fire prevention measure where they’re used with a fan above a shower is that the fan must work together with the light so that the light cannot come on on it’s own without the fan or else the rising heat can burn the flimsy plastic flexible air ducting which is often used in such an installation, as it is in a friend’s house where I’ve done quite a bit of work over the years. Personally I think a shower with a downlighter should only be used with the safer aluminium ducting in case the fan fails leaving a halogen light on without extraction.

That is a good point. My surveyor warned me that the halogen downlighters in the bathrooms were buried under a thick layer of insulation, which is why I replaced them as soon as possible. The fans are separate and more effective than ones combined with downlighters.

I have done a risk assessment and decided that the 40cm of fibreglass insulation would do enough to deter spread of fire. I can see little risk of wiring supplying 5.5 watt lamps overheating. If I have the bathrooms refurbished I will ensure that everything is done to modern standards but living alone I just have to look after myself. Perhaps fire-rated downlighters should have been a requirement from the start.

As a child I quickly learned to catch my 15W Antex soldering iron by the handle as it headed towards the carpet. 🙁

London Fire Brigade and Which? have condemned fridges and freezers with flammable plastic backs but few are concerned about the widespread use of plastics elsewhere in the cases of white goods. There are numerous photos online of dryers and washing machines with fascias and other parts that have burned or melted, allowing fire to spread. Perhaps when more people are tempted to run appliances overnight someone in authority might waken up to the problem.

At least my windows and doors comply with current requirements.

Should we be concerned about the widespread use of plastics in aircraft?

I’m more concerned about the safety of products in my home, Malcolm. I know that I have appliances with flammable plastics in their cases.

The point is “plastics” is a generic term for a very wide range of materials with very differing properties, including their resistance to heat. International Standards specify the performance required of such materials when used in different applications, including domestic appliances and the UK requires these standards to by met by regulation.

Where appliances have failed in a fire then the first question to address is whether the materials used were non-compliant. If they were not then action should be taken against the supplier. If they did, in fact, pass all the relevant tests then the requirements of the international standard should be re-examined and, if appropriate, more stringent material properties demanded. BSI are our representative to consider and take such information to the international committee. Which? are hopefully still a member of the relevant BSI committee and should, if they are concerned, raise this with them.

The standards are the same throughout the whole of the EU as well as the UK and in many countries in the rest of the world. I imagine if there were sufficient concern they would all be raising this problem, directly or through their consumer groups. Perhaps Which? @gmartin (Happy New Year, George) could tell us more.

I have taken samples from the cases of my white goods and other household items and they all burned merrily producing smoke. I have also posted numerous photos of burned out dryers and washing machines on Conversation. Why don’t you try testing small samples of plastic from your own products and you can see for yourself?

I am a little wary of leaving a breadmaker on overnight but I am awake by the time the baking stage starts and I have loud interlinked smoke detectors.

Your samples were not tested according to recognised standards. As I replied when this was first discussed I can set steel on fire – the material the casings are made of – by inappropriate samples and tests.

However, the question I asked was wider. No need to repeat it. But you can raise your concerns with BSI direct or through Which?, the London Fire Brigade or any other committee member. It is a serious issue so please keep us posted.

Have you discussed your tests with Which?

As we are well off topic, if the discussion is to continue this might be an appropriate Convo https://conversation.which.co.uk/home-energy/faulty-kitchen-appliances-electricfires/

We have discussed all this before, Malcolm. The fires that start in white goods and have cost people their homes did not happen under standard conditions.

I suggest we get back on topic.

I suggest a Convo above. However, to answer your point, safety standards deal specifically with abnormal conditions as well as “normal” ones. If you have access to standards online this will explain:
Household and similar electrical appliances. Safety – General requirements
BS EN 60335-1:2012+A15:2021

I suggest we get back on topic and then you edit your post to say that we are off topic. 🙂

@gmartin, George, although I imagine this bit of discussion is now concluded, as there is a more relevant home for it you could, if you feel it appropriate, transfer comments from where it was started https://conversation.which.co.uk/home-energy/led-light-bulbs-ikea-tcp-life-span/#comment-1643320 onwards?

You have statutory rights against the retailer under the Consumer Rights Act and they must replace faulty products within the first six months after purchase if you have a receipt or other proof of purchase. They are entitled to examine the faulty products for evidence of misuse if they wish. Hopefully Robert Dyas will replace the bulbs promptly.

“Design to fail” is not an allegation that should be applied generally, as if all manufacturers are misbehaving, is it? Unless there is sound evidence to the contrary. Many experiences with LEDs seem to be very positive.

CFLs had higher wattages and electronics within the lamp base; they could get very hot in small unventilated enclosures, evidenced by browning of the cap plastic.

Reputable manufacturers are aware of the effect of temperature on electronic components and design accordingly.

However, if there is a proper investigation that shows this to be widespread, we should see it.

Who has applied this allegation generally, Malcolm? Have I made any false or misleading claims? Is there anything in this video that is false or misleading? As mentioned in at the start of the video the fixture was sent for investigation because of multiple failures.

By dismantling failed lamps it is often to easy to see evidence of overheating, which can result in problems such as damaged LEDs, capacitors and other components and visible damage such as browning of circuit boards.

I used to dismantle failed CFLs and saw plenty of evidence of overheating in lamps made by Philips and other large manufacturers. It’s difficult to avoid when designing lamps of the same physical size as old fashioned bulbs.

In the fixture shown, the manufacturer could have reduced the stress by using a larger number of LEDs to provide the same amount of light and improved heatsinking as explained in the video. The sets of LEDs could also have been made available as replaceable components. In other discussions we have discussed the obvious benefits of having replaceable parts, and in the days of old fashioned bulbs and fluorescent lights we did not have to replace the whole fixture.

I have repeatedly said that I have been happy with my LED lamps, both expensive and cheaper ones. However, I am not happy about any manufacturer producing light fixtures that have to be scrapped if a fault occurs. We have condemned non-repairability many times when discussing household products.

The opening statement “Designed to fail. LED lamps that are designed to replace old fashioned bulbs have the electronic driver crammed in a small space….. ” and, later ………”bulb-replacement LED lamps often fail prematurely “ suggests some conspiracy by manufacturers (“Designed to fail”). I merely suggest that this sort of generalisation is unsubstantiated here, but maybe there is evidence of a widespread problem among reputable manufacturers? You may not mean this to come across in this way, of course.

Certainly there are instances of LED’s being badly designed, particularly by some “fringe” makers for some applications, and the same with integrated luminaires, but I see no evidence that this is widespread. Some arguments are supported by individual cases of failure but that does not support a generalisation.

As with CFLs that I have commented upon in the past I favour separate ballasts where possible; given more space they will generally run cooler and may contain more functions. Replacing incandescent and CFLs with LEDs in existing luminaires does not usually permit a separate ballast, and the (reputable) manufacturer can only do their best to cope with unknown conditions, such as putting a high power LED in an inappropriate light.

It would be useful if Which? resumed testing LED “replacements” from main-stream manufacturers (they cannot possibly include all of the others) under differing conditions to see how they performed. They cannot do life testing as that would be both too long winded and the lamps would have been superseded before the tests were complete. But they could monitor temperatures in sensitive areas to determine whether “overheating” was going to prejudice life. When my laboratory tested enclosed electronics the manufacturers marked test point(s) on the enclosures which should not exceed a declared temperature under specified conditions. These points were located to ensure the most sensitive internal components were not run beyond their temperature limits.

“Designed to fail” is in quotation marks and attributed to the person who made the claim. It referred to a specific product.

The driver in LED and CFL bulb-replacement lamps is crammed into a small space. That is fact and not opinion.

Would you agree that in fixtures with separate LEDs the LEDs should be user-replaceable rather than having to scrap the entire fixture?

I would like to see Which? push for sensible manufacturers’ guarantees for LED lamps because some of the claims about long lifetimes by major manufacturers are not backed up by matching guarantees.

Many LEDs seem to work well even though the space for components is limited. I suggest it is the way manufacturers design circuits for use in that space that is important, and the quality of components. I don’t think we would disagree about that.

A feature of LEDs is that, from reputable manufacturers, they have extremely long lives. When they do eventually fail it is likely technology will have advanced and there is little point in replacing them perhaps. The problem I expect is with poor quality products usually sold relatively cheaply. I would suggest that warranties should support early failures when the whole luminaire should be replaced if it as an integrated construction.

The problem with LED replacement lamps is the manufacturer has no control over what light the lamp is used in. It might be one that overheats the product because it is too small or constricted for the size of lamp being used. As no doubt with many warranties I would expect the supplier to take a good deal on trust; for low value products there is no point in spending time examining it. Although manufacturers will be interested in seeing failures to help identify potential problems.

“I suggest it is the way manufacturers design circuits for use in that space that is important, and the quality of components. I don’t think we would disagree about that.”

Good components used in unsuitable conditions can fail prematurely, as I have mentioned in various conversations, so your assumption about what I agree with is not necessarily correct.

“A feature of LEDs is that, from reputable manufacturers, they have extremely long lives.”
Not always, as some posts here and elsewhere suggest, for example further up this page: https://conversation.which.co.uk/home-energy/led-light-bulbs-ikea-tcp-life-span/#comment-1618964

“I would suggest that warranties should support early failures when the whole luminaire should be replaced if it as an integrated construction.”
I hope that we might see the claimed lifetimes, of LED lamps of 15,000 hours or more might be backed by a sensible manufacturer’s guarantee.
I am very disappointed to see light fixtures like the one referred to in my first post being integrated units rather than having replaceable LEDs and drivers.

I was commenting on the statements made based on a background in manufacturing and the lighting industry, to add a view that I believe is valid to what was said. I’m sorry we disagree but Convos are to explore topics, I believe.

Should Which? commission testing on a selection of most used LED lamps from the major manufacturers to see how they perform? I would think it useful to help consumers with a review so they could make more informed choices.

Which? did not find any major problems with LED lamps and has discontinued testing, so I doubt that they will commission further tests unless it sees a need. One area that might be worth looking at in relation to sustainability is light fixtures that must be discarded if they fail, as in the present example. I regard that as unsatisfactory and hope you agree, though I make no presumptions!

I normally buy well know brands of electrical items but thought it would be interesting to see how cheaper LEDs performed. I did not go as far as buying from pound shops or buying unfamiliar brands online but bought some cheaper brands from supermarkets and other shops. I had no failures until recently when a Diall LED bulb failed after not much use, but others of that brand have survived considerable use in the past five years.

This all suggests they are not designed to fail and that, in general, people are happy with their LEDs. There is a Which? article here https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/light-bulbs/article/how-to-fix-common-led-problems-aCgn02Q1UEXV

As LEDs will, presumably, be commonly used throughout the world maybe the experiences of other countries, and the good and the bad, could be sourced by Which? through there equivalent consumers’ organisations. Collaboration would seem an efficient use of money and resources on this and many product investigations.

I have found new LED lamps fitted in the last few years to be far more reliable than those installed when they first became available so I reckon there have been significant advances in manufacturing quality among the better brands.

Since moving home six years ago I installed new LED lamps throughout the house and took the opportunity to replace incandescent lamps in some table lamps and other fittings. We also installed a number of new replacement ceiling light fittings, usually multi-branch fittings with a number of individual lamps, in order to provide a better light output and good distribution. I recently reported on this in one of the other Conversations on this subject here –
https://conversation.which.co.uk/home-energy/led-light-bulbs-ikea-tcp-life-span/#comment-1646205

Because the projected durability of LED lamps is stated in hours of use [not in years of ownership] I doubt many people have any idea of how well they have performed before they fail. Obviously, they are generally only on during the hours of darkness. In some rooms they might be on for extended periods [like in kitchens] but in other rooms they could only be on for short periods once or twice a day [e.g. bedrooms]. Lamps that burn out within a short period of purchase are clearly either of poor manufacture or installed in an unsuitable location or fitting [mostly the former in my opinion].

Nearly all the LED lamps I have installed, and which have performed well and not failed prematurely, have been manufactured by Philips and purchased from John Lewis. A small number were Tesco or Sainsbury’s own-label lamps and they have also performed well but were generally installed in fittings or places that are little used. I am not aware of any diminution of light output in the lamps I have installed in the last six years.

Yes. Good heatsinking can make a big difference and the video illustrates it well. None of the heatsink compound I have used will act as an adhesive so LEDs or any other component that requires cooling must also be retained in place. As mentioned in the video, it would have been better to have a larger number of the LED chips so that they would deliver the same light but not get so hot. One of the benefits of doing this is that the efficiency is improved, but it adds a few pennies to the cost of manufacture.

I’m impressed by how long your Poundland LEDs have survived. ‘BigClive’ has looked at numerous small electrical products from pound shops in his YouTube videos. What is most encouraging is that there are few safety issues. If cheap shops can manage safety, why do we have online marketplaces such as Amazon and eBay selling dangerous products.

For years we had the 2D type of fluorescent lamp in circular ceiling fixtures, supplied by a choke ballast or electronic equivalent. Spare lamps of the two most popular sizes were readily available and could be swapped by the householder or maintenance contractor for flats, offices and commercial premises. What is needed is a standard for LED lighting fixtures to allow maintenance in the event of failure.

Yes, that would make sense Wavechange as it does seem ridiculous that an entire light unit would need replacing when the LED’s fail. It would make much more sense to have an industry standard LED replacement, reducing waste and maintenance costs.

Compact fluorescent lamps had a limited life – around 5000h from memory – and many such lamps were used in commercial installations with much heavier use than domestically. It made as much sense to replace those as any fluorescent or HID lamp; nor did they lend themselves to full integration. Decent LEDs and controllers should last so long that they would not need replacing; replacements may be impossible to get after 15 years or more. Early failures (when faults generally surface in otherwise decent equipment) should be covered by an appropriate guarantee.

However, cheap fittings – cheap circuitry and chips with maybe little attention to longevity – are what should be avoided. If I were buying a complete LED luminaire I would look at those made for commercial use.

I understand the wish for sustainability but when we buy cheap we generally contribute to wastage.

Standardisation of replacement LEDs is, of course, worth investigating, not only for the end user but also for the luminaire manufacturer. I don’t know how much exists , in street lighting for example, where I would expect local authorities to require independent sources of supply.

Wingman – You might be interested in the ‘teardown’ of a faulty LED bulb to discover the fault, which I posted above: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btBmE-PZ5ig. The circuit board shows evidence of the high temperature that can be found in LED and CFL bulbs, especially the more powerful ones than in this example. In this case the temperature cycling seems to have caused an inductor to fail, which is a fairly uncommon fault in electronic devices, but it only takes one component to fail to cause failure of the product.

Malcolm – I am not convinced that cheaper products are automatically destined to premature failure. Those who advocate that you get what you pay for often compare expensive products with the cheapest they can find, where there is likely to be a major difference, but if you take into account mid-priced products they might offer the best value for money. Wingman has pointed out that all his Poundland LEDs are still working after six years. I’m surprised, but pleasantly surprised, and my own venture into buying mid-price LEDs has proved worthwhile after six years.

Wavechange, fascinating what can be discovered on Youtube.

What was most apparent is the difference in build specification when compared to the previous video you posted featuring the circular ceiling light. The LED module in the candle bulb consists of an aluminium PCB on which the LED’s are mounted, with the PCB acting as a heatsink. Whereas the LED’s on the circular ceiling light were mounted on a thin flexible strip, most likely with copper track providing electrical connection between the LED’s.

It seems clear that some manufacturers are producing lights/bulbs at minimal cost by omitting an adequate heatsink, which is causing the LED’s to operate at the limit of their tolerance. The LED’s will function for a limited time, but are more likely to fail earlier during their lifespan when corners are cut.

It’s possible to spend a long time looking at YouTube videos and there is a lot to learn. In the past ten years there have been considerable improvements in the design of LED lighting, particularly in removal of heat from the drivers and LEDs. One useful development was the filament LED which is probably bought for aesthetic reasons (it resemble a vintage light bulb) but from a practical point of view it keeps the heat from the LED chips away from the driver and keeps each of the tiny LEDs away from each other. Aluminium-backed PCBs are useful as you have seen.

Some fundamental weaknesses remain. LED chips are usually arranged in series because they operate at a low voltage of around 3 volts. That means that if one fails the lamp can fail, in the same way that a string of Christmas lights will only work if every bulb is intact. The more powerful bulb-replacement LED lamps are pushed to their limits to produce the maximum light output, which is not good for reliability or efficiency. There is absolutely no excuse for this in a ceiling light fixture.

Well known brands can be better made but as the Sylvania ceiling lamp illustrates well you cannot rely on it. Here is just one more video that you might find interesting, Wingman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klaJqofCsu4&t=256s

“Malcolm – I am not convinced that cheaper products are automatically destined to premature failure” and that is not what I said. The likelihood of a cheap product failing early is greater than a more expensive product is simply because cheapness is often achieved by poorer components, poorer design and construction, poorer evaluation. That does not mean all low-priced products are automatically destined to fail early. Nor that early failures don’t happen to pricier products.

Equally fascinating Wavechange. It’s nice to see well engineered lamps and that the design of these ensures the LED’s are not operating at their limits.

There are international standards that set down the testing regime for luminaires, including thermal performance under abnormal conditions. If manufacturers design and test accordingly then the components will be kept within their operating limits. For “conventional” lamp luminaires we would, for example, check the temperature rise of all sensitive components at 10% over nominal voltage, in a draught-free enclosure, with the luminaire mounted in the most adverse condition likely to be encountered. Worth checking whether a light being purchased complies with the relevant standard. BS EN 4533 for example.

That’s interesting malcolmr. Given the majority of LED chips, lamps and complete light units are manufactured overseas, with the greatest proportion in China, it does leave me wondering how rigorous their compliance is with the required standards.

I am sure there are some large industry players overseas who comply with the standards exactly, but I imagine there are also some who are borderline compliant.

Wingman – Manufacturers and retailers must comply with all applicable standards for products to be sold in the UK and European countries. Most do a good job but there is a major problem with dangerous and counterfeit products sold on online marketplaces, as Which? has reported.

Although it has been suggested that some products have better chips than others that is not necessarily so. For example you can find Brightpower chips widely used in LED lighting, irrespective of price. In fact many of the chips used in electronic circuitry are made by one manufacturer, as they were when I used to dabble in construction in the 70s.

Malcolm – I presume that the Sylvania ceiling/wall lamp is designed to comply with the relevant standards but as illustrated in the video it appears to be poorly designed and assembled.

I do not know about the Sylvania wall lamp. Perhaps you could check to see if it is appropriately marked.

Wingman, you a right about overseas products, where many non-compliant products originate. However, reputable manufacturers who manufacture directly or indirectly in China for example would design and test to appropriate standards and have quality control procedures in place to ensure continuing compliance.

Just complying (borderline) would meet a standard.

The video shows the product label at 2:00. There is a CE mark and Sylvania has UK offices in East Sussex.

I’ve long regarded Sylvania as a manufacturer of good quality products and I don’t know why they have allowed their name to be used on a dubious product like this.

I used to have great faith in Philips and they do make some very fine products including laboratory and medical equipment but sometimes their name appears on substandard products. JCB produces very durable excavators, but I’m told that their power tools are not too good.

This is exactly the point I was making malcolmr. I am sure Manufacturers do produce their products to meet the required standard, in terms of product safety and meeting electrical regulations etc, but this does not necessarily reflect on design which may impact product lifespan.

In the case of the circular wall/ceiling lamp, having LED’s mounted on a thin conductive strip, not attached to the light housing mechanically and without a defined heatsink, is quite likely compliant, however, such a basic design may well cause the LED’s to function at their limits and reduce the product lifespan. This is what I meant by borderline compliance.

If a product meets the required standard, then that is of course okay, but I guess it’s important to recognise that some Manufacturers will do ‘just enough’, whereas others will do ‘more than enough’.

Here is another example of an LED ceiling light, this time sold under the Philips brand name: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnHHvGRhHoQ Apart from having an occupancy sensor it’s similar to the Sylvania one.

Once again the LEDs could be better heatsinked. There are more, which will help with cooling but they are tiny, which is worse. To quote from the text in the video description:

“This product is very much in the category of unserviceable. I very much doubt it will last for 15 years. You can’t just change a lamp in it, and with the profitable Part P* protection racket driving up the hourly rate of electricians in the UK – products like this will inevitably force homeowners to get involved in doing DIY electrical wiring even if they are not technically inclined.
*(Part P was pushed for by a private marketing company called the NICEIC which presents itself as an “official body” by use of careful wording in their adverts. You pay to use their logo and benefit from the image they imply.)

This is an unused product and only time would tell how long this would last. It’s interesting that the LEDs, albeit not the driver, are guaranteed for five years.

It is CE marked by Philips to indicate it meets all regulatory requirements.

I would assume a company of Philips standing would not buy in a proprietary product and resell under their name without being sure of its provenance. Presumably their experts will have either designed it and written an approriate specification or thoroughly vetted it and the manufacturer in China before marketing it. At least, I would hope so. My company would have.

I didn’t plough through all the Sylvania video circuitry bit, but as far as I can see one LED had failed out of 24. That could be a simple LED fault. To check whether there were a fundamental fault would have involved measuring the LED junction temperatures which, as far as I can see, was not done.

Asking Sylvania and Philips might be worthwhile, as would doing proper tests on the luminaires. Then we would have some definitive information.

I wonder why a third party might be assumed to have more expertise in evaluating this product than the company responsible for it. I did not look at the whole 15 mins of the video but did not see any claim it was defective. Perhaps there is evidence that it was?

Yes Wingman, but standards for safety often include tests that also impact on long term performance. For example thermal testing, including endurance, will not only show a potential safety issue but also show whether vulnerable components will be operated with their stated limits, limits that relate to acceptable working life.

The Sylvania product failed completely because of a single damaged LED chip. This is a weakness of having LEDs, which are low voltage devices, run from a high voltage supply. This arrangement is common in LED bulbs and LED light fixtures. As mentioned in the video the electrician that provided the faulty fixture had encountered multiple failures of this product, possibly in rental property in London.

The concern about the Philips product that I have reproduced above is that it is unserviceable by the user, which seems fair comment. Compare that with a 2D fluorescent light where it is easy to buy a new tube and replace it. The other comments made in the video can be treated as a personal opinion like other reviews.

I presume that having an occupancy detector, the fixture could be useful in toilets and hotel corridors to avoid the light being left on for long periods or continuously. Having looked at the Philips website it seems that the five year guarantee does cover the driver as well as the LEDs although this is not clear from the packaging.

I watch this type of video because I am interested in circuit design and why electronic and electrical products fail. Those presenters who manage to fix faults rather than just offer their opinions about the cause are the ones I pay attention to.

As I mentioned earlier, 2-D lamps (exclusive to Thorn at the time) as other compact fluorescent lamps have much shorter lives than LEDs used properly. You might use such a light as the Sylvania or Philips in the domestic setting for 1000h a year, so a 15000h LED life would equate to 15 years service. For a product that might retail at £15 I doubt it economically worthwhile to stock replacement LED units for that length of time. LED strips are available so the concerned and knowledgeable owner could replace them.

Malcolm – I was trying to illustrate some of the issues that can affect longevity of LED lighting to Wingman.

Incidentally I was speaking to a friend who is using high power downlighters in a long hall and has to replace them approximately annually. They are on about 16 hours a day because of the lack of natural lighting. He is going to take my advice and fit lower power GU10s like the 5.5 watt ones that continue to serve me well.