Have you switched your heating on yet?

I do exactly the same, but, just occasionally, in “Summer” the heating kicks in on a cold morning and after an hour, the sun has made it unnecessary. I also do this because I believe a constant temperature in the house helps the fabric and stops the plaster cracking. Could be wrong on that, but it seemed to be the case, many years ago when I turned the heating off during work hours and came back to an ice box that then warmed up again. Plaster cracks were more frequent then. Of course, when I’m “on duty” that house is always warm.

Not sure about the plaster cracking, but we used to turn the heating off if we went on holiday in winter. The house would take 2-3 days to warm up again when returned.

Ian, if I could knit I’d send you a sweater patterned with clouds, sun and snowflakes.

Melanie’s intro was generally tongue in cheek. however, she overlooked the value of having a cat as a living hotwater bottle.

I do wish, though, that Which? would think more carefully about what they print that might be taken seriously. As you say “with forecasters predicting this winter to be the coldest and snowiest for six years,” is untrue and unsustainable. The danger is if people think they will have to use a lot more gas or electricity than normal they might switch to an inappropriate tariff. Advice from Which? should be based on fact, not on tabloid headlines.

There are no berries on the holly bush yet………….

But I think Ian is spot on with his weather predictions.

The reason there might be more winter berries on the bushes than usual at this time of the year is that the late summer and early autumn periods have provided the birds with plenty of other tasty morsels that are still in abundance – siders, snails, ants and worms are still readily available and it seems to have been a bumper year for moths even if butterfly numbers appear to be down. My grapes have just ripened fully and seem to be quite popular.

Following up Bishbut’s comment earlier today, I too have been surprised at how soon people have turned on their central heating given that most homes now have double glazing and much better insulation than was the case just a few decades ago. I expect the reason is that people don’t wish to wear much indoors these days and the more sedentary lifestyle requires a higher temperature. We find that the heat coming from the hot water system, cooking, appliances, televisions and lighting are adequate at this time of the year and we still have windows open selectively.

@mtrain, If only you had said that Which? got their information from “The Sun” !!(I presume the “news”paper as opposed to the shiny orb in the sky that might be letting us know it is off on a winter sports holiday). Had we been informed the information came from Rupert’s group, well known for its unstinting efforts to seek out the truth and make it known (by hacking into the weather’s mobile maybe) then all our scepticism would have been averted. 🙂

Does it leak, Melanie?

John, turning “on” your heating does not mean it will “come on” as, of course, it will be controlled by the existing temperature in the house. i left mine on all summer but I don’t think it was ever necessary to provide any additional heat. So I see no real point in turning it off.

I am in the habit of switching the heating function off by about the middle of June and then on again sometime in October. Turning it off avoids the pump running and any tendency for the system to ‘cycle’. Keeping the primary thermostat at around 17-18 degrees is satisfactory through the winter. The upstairs zone has separate controls so we tweak it a lot more both for timing and temperature and use the TRV’s to ‘balance’ the heat according to the rooms in use. When I last counted there were twenty radiators in the house, over three storeys, and we tend to keep all the doors open to provide an overall comfortable ambience, albeit some rooms are kept cooler than others.

Malcolm – If you are keeping your thermostat at a constant 21°C and the heating is not coming on in the summer, you must live somewhere warm.

The room where it is situated receives a lot of solar heat during the day and evening. Gas consumption in the summer is very low, mainly for hot water. An occasional energising of the pump though is not a bad thing.

I was so disappointed to follow your link to be only taken to the Sun newspaper. I though t Which? Was more discerning…..

Hence thermostatic radiator valves, wavechange, that you can turn down to suit the use of the room but keep the chill off.

However, never fear. with smart phone apps you will soon be able to control everything in your house – including the temperature in each room – using apps on your smart phone, from anywhere in the world. As most have little else to occupy them this should keep them entertained. You may, of course, have to buy some expensive bits of kit to make this happen and do the calculations to see if the capital cost is repaid by the (in this case) energy savings.

We Brits, according to some are, however, incapable of making such calculations so we’ll just have to believe all we are told. 🙂 and give our trusting financial support to the “internet of things”.

I have used TRVs since the early 80s but as I said, some people leave unoccupied rooms fully heated. I’m not interested in smart phone control, but if it gets people thinking about conserving energy, that would be welcome. I’ve noticed that friends who have solar panels and feed power into the grid have become much more aware of energy.

One of the consequences of replacing filament, halogen and CFL lamps with LED’s is that I care less about leaving the lights on. I know that’s not the right idea but it has become a common practice to keep side lights and table lights on continuously at night time.

LEDs with separate electronic drivers have power factors of 0.9 or better. Replacement lamp LEDs, such as you buy for your home, will generally have power factors around 0.5. The current and voltage are out of phase and the current drawn can be twice what is anticipated (Power in Watts = Volts x Amps x power factor). Not a problem if relatively few LEDs are used, but more so when there is a mass migration to replacements. Still energy saving though but whether they will save you money depends upon how long they last.

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Commercial products have power factor correction – as in separately powered LEDs, but for cheapness it rarely happens in domestic LEDs. It is of little consequence unless the load becomes significant.

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Domestic electricity meters still measure, as far as I know, “real” power. The out-of-phase current is not taken into account. However actual current is important in distribution losses (square of the current times transmission line resistance) and generator sizing. This is why power factor correction is applied to commercial and industrial loads.

One house of LEDs is a small contributor but a whole estate on LEDs might become more important. Ideally all loads should be corrected to as near unity as possible, but this costs money in extra components.

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Thanks Malcolm and Duncan for the discussion on domestic lighting but it’s over my head. If we turn on a couple of table lights when we go into the sitting room, and perhaps one or two more upstairs, and then don’t turn them off until we retire for the night, I don’t think that’s going to burn a hole in my pocket nor upset the power generators. I have no reason to suppose that any or our LED’s are going to fail before 7,500 hours on average. Some are only on for an hour or less each day so they should see me out.

Lets hope they don’t see you out John 🙂 I’ve avoided LED replacement bulbs, originally because of their colour, reliability and cost. And I like dimming. At some point I will try them more generally. At the moment I have LED strips under cupboards over a worktop in the kitchen – so far, so good.

Some LEDs are dimmable. It’s generally recommended to use a trailing edge dimmer rather than the leading edge variety that were commonly used with incandescent lighting, though this is not shown on the lamp packaging. I am very pleased with the dimmers I have fitted and they don’t create any radio interference, as some dimmers do.

Dimmable CFLs are not satisfactory, tending to flicker at lower brightness. To dim fluorescent lighting successfully it is necessary to maintain the temperature of the cathodes, which requires something more complex than a standard dimmer.

I have installed under-cabinet LED strips in the kitchen and replaced the halogen lamps on a spotlight track with LED’s and am pleased with the quality of the illumination. I am also pleased that, if the LED’s last a lifetime, I shall not have to fiddle about on the ceiling or under the cabinets trying to replace a failed lamp. The lower operating temperature of the LED’s is also a bonus when standing under the spotlights; although the heat output was marginally useful in the cold weather it was a quite wasteful in the summer months.

Kitchen lights are often left on for long periods and it is not difficult to see that lots of 50W halogen downlighters and spotlights use a fair amount of power. The popular GU10 lamps can be fiddly to fit. (I wonder how such a poor design became standard.) My most successful lamp replacement has been to switch to LED for the cooker hood.

🙂 🙂 🙂

Maybe you should change your clocks now, Sophie. If it proves unsatisfactory, there will be a cooling off period.

NIce. 🙂 🙂 🙂

I like the cat on a hot tin radiator shown in the Picture at the top of the Conversation. I had one like that a long time ago who [yes, he was almost human] would sit on top of the floor-standing boiler. His name was Dudley, brother of Eric.

I think that is the photo that inspired Patrick to create a version on an iPad.

Edit: Here is the relevant Convo: conversation.which.co.uk/technology/ipad-tablet-best-art-painting-apps-david-hockney/

We had some discussion about this picture at the time wavechange. Well remembered! I was trying to find it but was looking it up under “slow cookers”.i

According to Wikipedia: “Humans generally start to feel uncomfortable when their skin temperature passes about 38 °C (100 °F), but cats show no discomfort until their skin reaches around 52 °C (126 °F), and can tolerate temperatures of up to 56 °C (133 °F) if they have access to water.” This may explain why cats are fond of warm places.

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Ah, but birds have a body temperature (around 40°C), irrespective of whether they live in warm or cold climates. Some smaller ones can lower their body temperature, as mammals do if they hibernate. The high body temperature of birds makes their flight muscles more efficient, giving them a good power to weight ratio.

When I was commissioning works for blocks of flats or recommending tradesmen to flat dwellers there were some cynics who thought that in return for favourable mentions we would be receiving cheap or free services from those tradesmen ourselves. I was always scrupulous to avoid this conflict of interests in my clients interests.*

Honestly I can say that it went on as I know for fact in at least two cases with two different agents. Was it widespread I don’t know. AFAIR there was a major court case concerning the underhand practices and I note there is a nice one brewing with Foxtons.

If you have a managing agent or factor do not abdicate from having an enquiring mind. However also be realistic that if an tradesmen is familiar with your site that may be good reason for him to be employed frequently as his knowledge may save time and result in a better outcome.

* Possibly an area of great interest to subscribers in general is this from last year on the ful Foxtons
landlordlawblog.co.uk/2015/06/18/foxtons-to-have-their-come-uppance-over-fees/
An area where I always thing Which? has been negligent in being militant in abuses … well to be fair I am not sure they have ever covered it.

” To put it in a nutshell, the law states that because agents are in a particularly powerful position, effectively managing their client’s business for them, with the ability to make contracts on their behalf (meaning that they are able to feather their nest without their landlords knowing about it), they have a legal obligation to be extra specially careful to act in ‘good faith’.
The law will (or should) treat an agent who has breached this duty, much more harshly than it will other breaches of contract, as the agent is in a position of trust. Courts and Judges normally take this duty very seriously.”

Similar of the higher standard required of Trustees.

As of 2016 55 landlords are included in the case

I have a feeling the previous three comments belong in a different Conversation but I do not know which one as my quick search did not identify one.

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If evolution worked those of us in the cooler climate band would have developed a natural protection from the cold as many animals have. Perhaps wearing clothes for centuries has interfered with the human evolutionary process.

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It’s a lot to do with fats:

“According to Prof Paul Thornalley, of Warwick Medical School, variation in average metabolic rate and body heat production between men and women “may explain why there is a difference in environmental temperature required for comfort between males and females”.

The body’s metabolism is responsible for growth and the production of energy, including heat. Resting metabolic rate is the minimal rate of energy expenditure per unit of time while we are at rest, calculated through a standard set of equations. On average women have a lower metabolic rate than men.

“A great determinant of resting metabolic rates is the fat free body mass in people’s bodies,” says Thornalley – accounting for around 60% of the individual difference in men and women’s resting metabolic rates. Because men have more fat free body mass – all the components of the body like skin, bones and muscle, but excluding fat – than women, they have a higher resting metabolic rate.

Major body organs, including the liver, brain, skeletal muscle, kidneys and heart are where most energy is consumed.

Non-movement production of heat – where energy is expended outside of active exercise – occurs in the body in “brown fat”, according to Thornalley. Humans have two types of fat – white fat, a store of excess calories, and brown fat, which generates heat.

Brown fat produces heat involuntarily through a process called thermogenesis. It is regulated by the thyroid hormone and the nervous system, and may account for further variation of resting metabolic rate, particularly in men. (Babies have higher levels of brown fat than adults to stave off hypothermia while young.)

This higher proportion of body mass which is able to produce heat involuntarily means that on average men don’t feel the cold as easily as women – and, in sultry summer months, means they have a lower tolerance for hot weather because their bodies produce more heat at a resting metabolic rate, getting warmer quicker.

But, as Thornalley is quick to point out, not every person is the same. Some men have lower metabolic rates than some women, and so in some cases it may be Dave on reception reaching for a jumper more readily than Ellie in the boardroom.

Some people also have suggested less scientific reasons for the general gender divide over the air-con – while some women wear light dresses in August, some men are stuck in stuffy suits.

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In future it may be possible to increase heat generation in individuals that feel cold. Breakdown of brown fat to create heat is controlled by thermogenin (see Wikipedia), an uncoupling protein in the mitochondria of brown fat tissue. A side effect would be loss of weight but that might be welcome in many cases.

IIRC that phenomenon was first discovered in WWII, where women assembling certain munitions started to feel excessively warm and, over time, lost weight. Can you confirm that, Wave?

That’s right Ian. They were using 2,4-dinitrophenol (DNP), a chemical that causes uncoupling of energy production in the mitochondria of fat cells. When used as a weight loss drug, it does not take much to cause fatal overheating (hyperthermia).

Which?Convo never ceases to amaze 🙂 Next time I visit my 6′ 3″ son and he sits there in his T shirt with his thermostat set at 17 degrees and I am shivering in a couple of sweaters, I can at last explain to him it’s all down to his BAT!

What never ceases to amaze is how individual body parts seem to naturally have a back up coping system, as does the mind. For example, I remember when cholesterol levels first became measurable by researchers and those with total borderline high readings were put on statins until they discovered HDL/LDL ratios.

It’s also interesting to learn how cooling the body can increase the body’s brown fat levels and increase its mitochondria, assisting its ability to reduce white fat levels and heating body temperature at the same time, which begs the question, can our centrally heated homes play a part in reducing the production of brown fat, thereby creating a downward spiral of further reducing body temperature and can ingesting spicy foods, or any other food, trigger an increase in Brown Adipose Tissue’s metabolic rate?

Like many couples, my mother and father preferred different temperatures. When he retired, they were both in the same environment and I wondered if things might change, but he continued to tweak the thermostat down and she turned it up. I take after my father in this respect, though as I have become older and more sedentary I prefer warmer conditions. I must dig out my wooly jumpers and find out if the anti-moth precautions have worked.

My wife and I are a bit like that. She sits in the lounge with the wood burning stove and I read Which? in the study. We periodically communicate by email.

Could try Skype and have a face to face Convo Bieldman.

When there was a full eclipse of the sun in summer about 10(?) years ago, I was quite surprised at how quickly the temperature dropped, how cold it got and how long the air took to warm up again even though there was a clear sky.

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I have looked down over Los Angeles and seen it clad in a yellow smog.

Ian, whatever was responsible for knocking our planet off its axial probably made life as we know it possible, creating a life sustaining balance between the Northern and Southern Hemispheres. I predict that humans will destroy each other long before the sun becomes a supanova. Could solve the energy crisis in the meantime though assuming of course the Suns power could be utilised to operate air-con devices.

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So why do we worry about the State Pension?

We can, unfortunately, never go backwards on developments; destructive weapons in particular. Maybe they are simply a device to keep the population under control?

What I want to see is the “military” operating as a police force rather than aggressive conquerors. Fist fights never really solve problems, simply cause festering grudges. Military people should keep out of politics and act to mediate, not destroy. I do not believe a deterrent has ever worked to prevent conflict, and the present one will not either. It just soaks up money that should be spent on preserving life, not trying in vain to insure against an enemy.

But for now let’s keep our homes pleasantly warm, as far as we can afford it, until the end comes. Maybe if the prediction is sooner not later we could use our savings and turn up the thermostat a bit. 🙁

I can guarantee that some energetic vacuum cleaning will warm you up, Beryl. Even light physical activity such as preparing a meal makes a difference when compared with sitting reading or watching TV.

You are so right Wavechange, a bowl of hot soup is about to be devoured and the computer switched off for the time being. The vacuum cleaner will have to stay silent for another day or two though until normal energy levels return, drained by last weeks viral infection.

Get well soon. Recovering from an infection is a good excuse for early nights and late mornings.

Many thanks Wavechange 🙂

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Having hard water should not be a problem because central heating is a closed system. I lived in a very hard water area and never had any problems with the pump or four motorised valves seizing. That sort of problem usually indicates a fault such as poor siting of the components or a leak under the floor that results in the system taking in more hard water. Yes it’s worth occasionally turning on the system during the summer, but it does not have to be for long.

It is not hard water that can cause a problem but the Iron Oxide sludge from internal corrosion that settles in the components . Good to keep your system operating, even intermittently.

As delldweller says the thermostat does the work, with the time controller. If your house is at or above the temperature you require because of the outside conditions then the heating will not operate.

In my previous home, I operated the heating more or less as delldweller does, except that I turned it on to the night time setting when I was out of the house. My new house has a simple thermostat but that will be replaced with a programmable version soon.

All closed circuit heating systems should contain corrosion inhibitor. I had Fernox in my system and there was very little black iron oxide. Sentinel is another popular brand of corrosion inhibitor. It’s vital to have the correct variety (e.g. for aluminium or cast iron boiler) and to add more periodically to maintain protection. Mounting valves and pumps in horizontal pipe runs near the bottom of the system should be avoided.

In an unprotected system, oxide can build up to the extent that a mound builds up in one or more downstairs radiators, resulting in a cold area in the centre at the bottom. The next step is that the radiator starts leaking.

TVR’s cannot ‘override’ a thermostat setting, but they will remain open to allow hot water to circulate until the set point on the TVR is reached.
There is a difference between hot water circulating in the system and the boiler firing to warm the water as required. In other words, the thermostat calls for heat, whilst the TVR calls for circulation.
As above, the best programmer is a timer/thermostat version, in conjunction with TVR’s and a modern condensing boiler.
Our programmer brings in heating three times daily – a so called ‘home worker’ setting, and the house is maintained more or less at 19.5-20 degrees.
Needless to say, efficient insulation and an equally efficient boiler are key, together with the cheapest possible energy provider – in our case, Worcester Bosch provides the heat, and OVO Energy provide the means. Both are Which? recommended and both are brilliant !

Locating the room thermostat in the hall is the recommended position but there then should be no thermostatic radiator valve on the hall radiator as they would be operating in conflict with each other.

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John, I’m not sure why you say there should be no TRV on the hall radiator. Although they are supposed to be thermostatic and react to temperature, the reality is they just control the amount of hot water that flows through the radiator.

When it gets colder, the only place our house can maintain a steady temperature is with the Hive thermostat/control placed in the enclosed hall near the front door as that is the place that heats and cools the quickest. We also have the TRV set to full on along with the TRV beside the back door. The Hive is set to 17 degrees in the daytime and 15 degrees at night. The rest of the TRVs in the house are set between 1/2 and 2/3rds on in the rest of the house and maintain temperatures suitable for the use of the rooms.

The Hive is too slow to react when placed in the living room which resulted in us getting hot, cold, hot, cold…

As it is not that cold at the moment, it is a pain in the rear to maintain a comfortable temperature as the Hive needs a lot of manual intervention.

We do have an earlier version of the Hive, so I don’t if the newer version is any better.