Brief cases: faulty washing machine claim settled in full

John Lewis still give misleading information and do their utmost to deter a customer pursuing a claim under SOGA .Best advice is dont give up keep at them keep all evidence and go to court

Which? should request instances where customers have been misled by retailers and take action. The practice is illegal – this could lead to a criminal prosecution under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. It is time retailers were reminded of their legal contractual responsibilities to their customers, now given in the Consumer Rights Act 2015. I’d suggest an agreed summary of customers rights should be prominently displayed in retailers and made available to anyone with a complaint about a product.

I’ve reversed this seemingly pointless thumbs down. Why not post your objection. whoever applied it, so we understand what the disagreement was? Then we might learn something. 🙁

The person probably objected to my use of the word “ticketing” [instead of “ticking”] which I had failed to spot during the editing opportunity, in which case a thumbs down was a well-deserved reprimand. But thank you, Malcolm, for normalising the situation.

@patrick, is there more the Legal Team can tell us to explain the award?

@awhittle, Thanks Alex.

@awhittle, thanks Alex for pursuing this. I just wonder why the details of the settlement are confidential when so much of this case has been made public. But thanks for the information. 🙂

I don’t understand John Lewis’s response. The Sale of Goods Act does apply and gives you the right to claim for up to 6 years. This would entitle you to have the item repaired or replaced (at your choice, unless one is disproportionate to the other) providing you can show there was a fault present when new or that the device did not have reasonable durability (did not last a reasonable length of time). I’d suggest the latter as it suffered a component failure after an unreasonable time. John Lewis are responsible legally to deal with this and should be reprimanded for giving you wrong information. Denying your rights under SoGA is an offence.

I’d pursue JL as your contract is with them. Failing a satisfactory response locally I would contact JL head office (their CEO would be a good start and the email address can be found on CEOemail.com). If that gets nowhere then I would report them to Trading Standards (and advise JL accordingly) and contact Apple to see if they would help.

Sorry to hear of your bad luck with that rotten Apple.

In my experience, a properly cared-for professional quality laptop can be good for 10 years of service (or more), not least as evidenced by my Dell D430 and my Lenovo X201, though the latter might be only about 7 years old. (I’m not the original owner of either of them… but their combined cost of £120 (to me) was clearly money well spent. I bet their first owners had to pay rather more than that…)

MJ Hawkins – I’m sorry to hear about your experience with John Lewis. Buying from JL rather than direct from Apple provides a two year guarantee rather then one and usually a small saving in purchase price. On the other hand, Apple can be generous to their customers if something goes wrong, even if they have not purchased an AppleCare warranty. Apple provided a free repair for my MBP after 3.5 years, replacing both the logic board and the display.

The Sale of Goods Act and (from Oct. 2015) the Consumer Rights Act give you statutory rights against John Lewis, the retailer. Assuming that there is no evidence of misuse (JL is entitled to check this) you could expect either a free repair, a refurbished computer or a partial refund, taking into account the age of the computer. It would be unreasonable to expect a new replacement. Please let us know how you get on with JL and do mention that they are breaking the law, as Malcolm says, if they don’t even consider a claim under your statutory rights.

If you do buy Apple products in the future it might be worth buying direct.

Martin – If you have evidence from emails that JL is denying your statutory rights you could take the case to the small claims court. If you don’t want to go to court then I would push for a free repair or an exchange, otherwise the best you could achieve is a partial refund or a discount on a new computer.

Apple was right to refer you to JL to pursue a claim under the Consumer Rights Act and they even have information about customers’ rights on their website, something that should be standard.

A few years ago I phoned Apple about a faulty MacBook Pro, went through a range of diagnostic tests and since these did not establish the fault I was asked to go to an Apple Store. I was quoted over £800 to repair the three and a half year old laptop for which I had no AppleCare cover, but the job was done free of charge. I had bought the computer direct from Apple rather than a separate retailer. JL might be a little cheaper for Apple products and offer an extra year’s warranty but I’ve decided to carry on buying direct.

Some years ago, Which? used actors posing as customers with goods that had failed outside the guarantee period. Major retailers including JL performed poorly and it was not much better when the exercise was repeated a year later. Which? could have used real people with real faulty goods and help them take the companies involved to court. Having the story covered in the press would have boosted the reputation of Which? as our consumers’ champion.

Please let us know the outcome, Martin.

I’d pursue JL under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 – you can find the complete act online – and use the “durability” clause as John Recommends. I’d copy it to the CEO of JLP (you can find details on CEOemail,com) and to Apple. Anyone who considers an expensive MacBook should not last longer than 2.5 years needs challenging. You deserve, at least, a substantial contribution towards a repair, or a replacement.

Sorry to duplicate your comments John but it is high time we got to grips with delinquent retailers who attempt to deny consumers their legal rights, something that is against the law and should be prosecuted.

Why do Which? not tackle this problem on behalf of consumers?

That’s OK, Malcolm – at least we’re both singing from the same songsheet. I realised too late that I had posted my comment as a new subject instead of as a reply. I continue to find the indents and initial placement of replies tricky.

Just re-post it and remove and www references if you had any in the original post.

I’m sure the glossary given in the Sale of Goods Act Explained – the predecessor to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 – is still perfectly valid. Durability has nothing to do with 30 days or an initial fault; it has everything to do with it lasting a reasonable time given the relevant factors, one of which must be the price in comparison to similar products. Apple products are expensive and should, therefore, last several year; certainly more than yours. that is my understanding.

I think it arrogant of JLP not to give you their CEO’s details, and they could well be in breach of the law by denying your right to redress under the Act. I would now contact their CEO and copy Apple and point out the legal position and (if you so choose) tell them you will both publicise their lack of assistance and refer the problem to the small claims court.

durability – the durability requirement is that the item should work or last for a reasonable time but it does not have to remain of satisfactory quality. For example, a pair of wellington boots should stay waterproof but does not have to keep its brand new appearance.
reasonable time – this depends on the item and the circumstances. What is reasonable is determined by taking everything into account and considering what an impartial person would think is reasonable.
impartial – used to describe someone who does not favour any side in an argument or discussion. A good example of someone who is impartial is a judge in a court – they must listen to both sides and make a decision based purely on what is said in court and any evidence provided.

Thanks for coming back, Martin. I think it’s time to contact either the consumer ombudsman or go to the small claims court. There is advice on both on the Which? website. It might be worth paying for advice from Which? Legal.

I don’t think there is any way of proving that the fault existed at the time of sale. Logic boards fail just like washing machine motors fail but it would take a lot of cases to provide evidence that there is a common fault with your model. The ill-defined durability clause of the Consumer Rights Act must be the basis of your claim. As Malcolm says, the 30 day period is irrelevant and having this very poor email will help your case.

I’ve only ever regarded the CEO email address as a means of having an email for a company rather than having to use web forms where it is difficult to keep a track of correspondence. The CEO of a large company is unlikely to respond to every email received from a customer and at least JL has been honest about saying that their Customer Care Team will handle the case.

As I said before it’s vital that you push for a repair rather than a partial refund or a discount on a new computer because these options could leave you with little recompense. Apple does provide spares to Apple Approved Retailers and their own workshops so a repair is perfectly possible.

I find John Lewis’s interpretation of the durability clause quite perverse and certainly well worth testing.

I think Wavechange’s suggestion of going to the Consumer Ombudsman is a good idea but unfortunately John Lewis is not listed as one of the companies participating in the scheme [as at January 2018].

Oops. Thanks for looking this up, John.

If this does go to court I assume that incorrect information supplied by JL could be useful to support Martin’s claim.

I have wondered about crowd funding and petitions for some time, Patrick. Crowd funding and petitions can be successful even in cases that are in my view poorly researched and presented. Perhaps a more professional approach would be much more successful. What is vital is to pursue issues that many are concerned about, as Which? generally does in its campaigns.

I’m surprised that we have mentioned but not really explored to opportunities for class action in the UK: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34402483

I’d rather see petitions on consumer topics carried out under the auspices and control of a respected consumer organisation. I (and others) have criticised some of Which?’s campaigns and I think they could be improved with more consultation but, overall, I think they should be the right vehicle.

It would help if Which? began a move to significantly increase its membership. The more supporters it gets for its campaigns the better.

This has prompted an off-centre thought: it is disappointing that very few of the people who have been employed by Which?, and in many cases been writers/editors. etc, of Conversation, have come back as contributors in their spare time to give us the benefit of their accumulated wisdom. Perhaps they have had enough of it, or it was just a job!

Historically, Which? has had a fairly high turnover of its staff and a reasonable idea of what the staff think can be found by looking at the comments on Glassdoor. I suspect that Which? hires a lot of young and aspirational, perhaps idealistic folk who can then become frustrated in the Which? environment. The impending announcement of a new CEO won’t help, either

No, but I am cheered by it, Ian.

The problem I see is we need a CEO for Which? Ltd, but we also need a separate one for the Consumers’ Association. I do not see that the control of the consumers’ guardian organisation should be left in the hands of one whose aim is generating profit. Given the pay scale currently offered I would have thought you could split it between two decent candidates..

“I suspect that Which? hires a lot of young and aspirational, perhaps idealistic folk” (https://conversation.which.co.uk/home-energy/faulty-washing-machine-bosch-john-lewis/#comment-1537918).

Yes, I believe that too. I think an organisation such as the Consumers’ Association needs them – fresh ideas not coloured too much by experience. But they should be accompanied in equal measure by middle aged people who have experienced different organisations and industries, gained real-life experience, and also by older people with deeper knowledge and maturity who have seen the same sort of issues in the past and can bring their own advice to the party.They all need to pool resources and work together.

When I joined my first employer I had a lot of “good ideas”, and some of them proved so. But, they only became useful because of the advice and assistance received from those helpful, and tolerant, more experienced colleagues whom I worked with.

I suggest that is an idealistic view of what should happen. The only way that breaching the CRA will be much reduced is by a few expensive and high profile cases widely reported.

Currently there is every incentive for retailers to block and little in the way of a disincentive. HAving worked in several customer facing industries I know exactly how this pans out.

I totally agree with you, Patrick. But I do consider many shop assistants are ill-informed about consumer rights, as are many consumers. Showing them both what they are entitled to can only help.

I do agree on using the criminal part of CRA against appropriate retailers and to publicise the outcomes. I believe this is something Which? could do on behalf of consumers. It has certainly seen quite a few appropriate cases in Convos.