Frequent myths about paying for care in a care home

Once again Duncan you have only dealt with a part of the picture, you fail to mention that all Care above the basic Care which Residential homes are registered for should be funded by the NHS which then is NOT subject to means testing. This very important point seems to be largely misunderstood and interpreted and is responsible for many members of the Public being made to pay for Care Home fees, there are many cases where the Ombudsman has dealt with this matter to the benefit of the Public but the Local Authorities and the NHS are regularly being taken to task, bye the way there are no Doctors involved with any assessments of needs as used to be the case it is now down to Occupational Therapists ticking boxes.

I dont mind replying to reasonable points Gerald and I do agree with the Occupational Therapists point you put as I know about this in a personal sense where she only works for the NHS two days a week and has her own business the rest of the week .

I would think that a qualified occupational therapist would be a good professional to make an assessment of whether or not a person needed to be boarded in a residential home at full or partial public expense or could take care of themselves [or be looked after] at home with or without additional support. The client’s GP would probably make a recommendation which would carry considerable weight. I thought the financial assessment was made by the social services department’s administration officers in accordance with standard policy applicable to all clients; it should be a matter of fact not interpretation.

The financial side does have some rules including how much you have in the bank ,which I am told where I live its got to be less than £25,000 and they cant “requisition ” your home if a wife/husband/partner also lives in it but they do ask questions about –who owns the house.
As far as assessment is concerned your right , initially its the GP who starts it all off.
This is far bigger than you think a whole raft of different official bodies connected to Social Services are involved , they are all integrated administratively , hold regular meetings on assessments, the problem being some of those “assessments ” dont really take to object of them, a Human Being into consideration its sometimes done in a cold clinical manner like telling the subject because they have a weak bladder they would be quote ” better off” with a catheter and just think in a few years you will lose the ability to control your bodily functions.
To me that’s just cold blooded mental cruelty and unless an 8 week assessment on somebodies mental state shows they are incapable of making rational judgements then they have no legal right to force somebody into care .
The Human Rights Act certainly applies here and , as you probably know, England has brought out new regulations on that score stopping force-able removal from the home using a court order,
This is now being touted in Scotland as a good piece of legislation which should be introduced there. You would not believe the mental pressure applied by all those services to get their way its a bit of a battle.
But yes John a lot of judgements are made by assessment not legislation just like a farmer decides on the fate of his farm animals . Its not as if we are dealing with an object here but a living human being.

I am in no position to judge whether what you are saying about the assessment process is correct or how you can possibly know what factors are taken into account in individual cases. This is a strictly confidential process and I cannot believe that any details of the assessment, other than its outcome, is made known to anyone outside the formal process. It’s not for social services professionals to make judgments on medical matters such as incontinence and so far as I am aware the process does not start with the GP although the medical facts might need to be taken into account [with the client’s permission] in many cases. I am not aware of people being “forced ” into care. If there is evidence of such a practice it must be revealed and investigated

The usual route is for people to apply to their local authority social services department to be taken into care, or for people who are already clients of the social services department their assigned social worker might set the wheels in motion. The GP might be requested to report on the medical facts and submit a recommendation based on his or her knowledge of their patient; this might suggest placement in a nursing home rather than a residential care home if there were ongoing medical requirements. I should be surprised if any other official bodies are involved because the assessment is entirely for the local authority to make and each authority will have its own policy to which any assessment must conform. To ensure consistency of decision-making I would expect assessments to be approved within a very limited number of senior social services professionals within the local authority.

There are two assessment to be made: the first is to decide what form of continuing care for the individual is the most appropriate and the safest for their ongoing health and welfare. That will be subjective to some extent but relying so far as possible on facts and the client’s case history. I believe this is an entirely person-centred process which is performed diligently by qualified professionals who are experts in the care needs of elderly people.

The second assessment is the financial one to determine the extent to which the local authority is required to meet all or any of the costs of the care provision [or home support] that is agreed during the first assessment. An extensive fact-find will be conducted, by a senior administrative or finance officer, to establish the client’s income and assets and apply the relevant rules. This will obviously take into account the availability of any unencumbered property assets.

With over four hundred thousand people living in residential care homes for three to four years on average, many of whom are not in local authority placements and are fully self-funding , there could be as many as fifty thousand residential care assessments a year being carried out. There could be a similar or higher number of assessments in respect of domiciliary care to support people who are able to continue to live in their own homes with assistance. This workload would be spread across all the local authority social services authorities and is a well-rehearsed activity. It is very rare to hear or see any references to the process being criticised or being referred to an ombudsman or the courts for maladministration or malpractice. If there were concerns there is a review process, a person’s councillor can intervene and ask questions, and if there was any suspicion of deliberate jeopardy or prejudice then there are various avenues through which to bring it to public attention, not least the press.

Meanwhile, we are still waiting for the government’s Green Paper on the funding of adult social care and, with certain other turmoil going on, I have a feeling that it will not have 2018 on the cover when it does emerge.

I am in a position to judge John and asking direct questions although turning some faces red with embarrassment ? gets truthful answers —-need I say more ?

If you are referring to an individual case of which you have direct personal knowledge, fine – but I formed the impression you were generalising. I am glad you obtained answers you could accept as truthful. That’s all we can ask for.

For a minute there John I thought you were getting your “prompts ” on this subject from a “certain party ” who used the same words.
I dont and never have worked on”conjecture ” in this field even though somebody is trying to make out I am.
Reality instead of propaganda is never usually acceptable –the truth falls at the first hurdle.

I know exactly-intimately and precisely all the details relating to this issue —-Personally .
Again John I ask you why should I say more when I dont pry into other regulars personal problems ?

I always try to stick to the point and always act if def fence, I really do not understand why you have leveled this criticism at me , I have not seen very many instances where you have taken Duncan to task on his very loud tone against the Care Home Sector in which I work and ,at times against me personally,at times this has been disgraceful to say the least.

Of course I should stay silent and shut up when my “betters ” are talking .
Silly me I would have thought you would have replied directly to the 1000,s of complaints of very bad treatment by so called “care homes ” but you never did only the positive ones which were buried in the deluge of -tears- misery-heartbreak -sorry for the loss of their loved ones by couldn’t “care”-less ” attitude of those homes .

Having looked on other websites I dont see you offering condolences individually to those suffering either.
I did and have , if that upsets you Gerald it just shows the amount of care in this UK wide issue.

Well John in principle how you describe the system should be they way it works and should be the way it is , as usual what happens in practice is always different. in Most cases from my experience GPs are not consulted ,District Nurses used to be but now are very really consulted Ward Doctors ( where the patient is leaving hospital) is hardly ever .
The only time they are involved is when the Patient is in the position which has been dictated by the Occupational therapist to sort out the mess which evolves from misplacement, the short term answer is a referral to the Hospital as often the patients condition has deteriorated

Your attitude towards me is not the problem for me as your opinions are dwarfed into insignificance by the feedback I have received from thousands of clients we have had the honor of serving in their hour of need. I have no intention of trawling the web looking for good or bad points to counter your smears and innuendos with .I have a limited time to deal with the misconceptions and misinformation which is being bandied around about Care Homes (for profit only of course) .
After working in this vocation, in a variety of roles, for over 30 years now I think that I might have learnt something by now which is worth sharing.

Happy New Year Everyone

Its all a “conspiracy ” by the public , they are “making it up ” –if that is your attitude then you do a great disservice to the 1000,s of human beings who have posted here and on many other websites pouring forth their tears and sorrow at the terrible treatment of their loved ones .
It beggars belief that you have not apologized to at least one of those sufferers as you put yourself in a position as a spokesperson for care homes in the UK but we are talking of human suffering not defense of the undefensibly in the face of reality .
Those relatives will live the rest of their lives with the memory its like a jail sentence to them , I totally fail to understand why you act so cold and at Christmas & New Year you still carry on in the same manner .
Apologise to them on behalf of those you say you represent maybe then like Christmas and the bible — a LIght shone forth in the face of darkness and Darkness understood it not.

Instead of replying to his comments about me George I will contact you ,its only when he comes out with his comments first that I am forced to reply otherwise it looks like he is telling the truth about me if I dont respond .
He knows exactly what he is doing.

Understood George, more than happy to comply, getting sick of all this politics , bad enough when one has to deal with it at work ,now that I am retired I would like to concentrate on helping people in their hour of need to get through this morass.

I hope in the future then that zero issues relating to the political state of this country acting against the general public are not also brought up in convos .
Going by past convos many relate direly to government legislation so zero talk on Brexit -zero talk on the welfare state (what left of it ) or any government legislation whatever –now that is removing politics from Which ? .
I look forward in the New Year to no talk relating to many subjects that are brought up here that upset the public.
Especially any talk relating to the NHS in any form by anybody posting here .
If not I do not accept the above premise.

You don’t say how long since you retired Gerald as the social care situation has deteriorated somewhat of late.

It was a case of “no room at the inn” 3 days before Christmas when the local authority decided to transfer my mentally ill relative who has been institutionalised for 37 years from the general hospital where he was admitted from a care home through gross neglect and almost died, unbelievably into B & B accommodation!

If Optalis were behind this move in an effort to prevent bed blocking, then I would suggest they take the necessary steps to ensure local authorities have suitable placements to accommodate vulnerable people to prevent them being treated like common criminals.

My relative is currently at my home being looked after by me.

Anyone watching Andrew Marrs interview with TM yesterday will recall he made reference to the state of the UK social care system which is currently under review. TM agreed there was room for improvement and that demand currently far exceeds supply.

I don’t envisage any improvement in the situation as long as government continue with its policy of funding privately run care homes that are using loopholes to bypass regulatory inspection by substituting ‘care’ for ‘supported living’ where vulnerable people are being left to fend for themselves without any external regulatory body to check on them.

Some care homes are even introducing their own panel of regulators where unbelievably they are now both their own judge and jury when an internal problem arises!

I fear the current UK Social care system is fast reaching third world status unless consumer bodies take radical action to address the situation preferably sooner rather than later.

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Beryl- You have my “blessing “- backing- and total loyalty on this ,I am with you all the way !

Thank you Duncan

Dear Beryl, in spite of being retired I am still very active in promoting Care Homes of all persuasions now that I have the time to do so. Looking at your own conversations you are also active in a variety of Conversations yourself and you appear “on the ball” as they say.
Dealing with your recent points :
I am not aware of Optalis record of satisfaction or area of operation maybe you could check this with their Employers (LHA or Council).
Most Care Homes do not deal with Mental Illness , as far as I am aware this is now solely under the jurisdiction of the LHA I personally have very little experience in this field and have ,in the past , left things matters in the hands of GPs to refer anyone to specialists.Anyone such as yourself who is having to Care for a relative requiring a specialist treatments as you describe has my deepest sympathy and both you and your relative both deserve better treatment then this.
What I cannot understand is if there is a greater demand for Care Home beds than supply why is there empty beds all over the Country and why are there numerous family owned ,good quality Homes going bankrupt or selling up.
Care Homes are all registered and regulated by the CQC and so I cannot understand what you refer to in reference to this.
I have ,in my time travelled to Europe and America and compared their systems with ours and I really think you are being rather unkind with your comment with regard to “third world standards”. I used to work with Filipinos,India,Chinese and east European Nurses and I can assure you they do not agree with you .Given half a chance most of them would like to stay here.

Dear Duncan
Over the years I have met Politicians from all of the major parties and they have all praised the work that That everyone in the system is doing with many of them having loved ones residing in Care Homes and Nursing Homes.
Most Care Homes have clients who are state funded and Privately funded.
Most clients are to busy dealing with the very difficult situation in hand and Politics is the last thing in their mind. Can we now emulate our clients and just deal with Caring and advising roles.

It would seem we are debating two entirely separate topics Gerald. My main interest is the current state of social care and its connection with care homes.

Since the majority of UK care homes are now privately owned and increasingly expensive to maintain to reach the standard required by the CQC, local authorities are finding it increasingly difficult to fund social care clients owing to government cutbacks. This would explain the reason for the increasing amount of empty beds you mention, another reason being the standard is not being met by some and so local authorities are no longer funding (subsidising) them hence they have no alternative other than to close down.

Social Workers (Care Cordinators) roles are now being split between health and accommodation as the lack of suitable accommodation requires more specialised domiciliary healthcare in the community, including B&Bs if relatives are unable to meet their needs.

Since Alzeimers is now accepted as a form of mental illness, I would question your assumption that “ Most Care Homes do not deal with Mental Illness..” 1 in every 4 people will suffer from some form of mental health problem during their life time and the elderly are no exception.

I would advise everyone contemplating moving into a care home to first compare their promotional ads to CQC ratings before deciding which one to choose.

I would reiterate my concerns regarding the use of loopholes in the care system that allows vulnerable people requiring residential care being sent into supported living accommodation where their needs are not being met. These establishments are – not required to be regulated by the CQC or any other external regulatory body, some even forming their own internal regulatory panels to meet their own standards of care..

I would again add my concerns that if the current situation is allowed to continue, we can increasingly look forward to third world standards unless consumer bodies take decisive action.

Seconded Beryl.
And your right about mental illness do you know even agoraphobia is now an official mental illness and yes , while not applying to me , I know that for a personal FACT !

Agoraphobia is technically an anxiety disorder although, as a complex set of interrelated symptoms, it can become a mental illness.

But you’re spot on, Beryl; the CQC is a reactive organisation when what is needed in an ageing society such as the UK’s is well-appointed and state operated care. This will mean an increase in either National insurance or Income Tax, but as services many will require in time it seems short-sighted not to move forward with a set of solid proposals, now.

Straight from the horses mouth Ian -NHS – quote-its a mental illness no other mental illnesses needed and on that basis a clinical judgement is made thats Official.
No Ian didn’t get it “off a website” -much more personal than that unless you are going to disagree with NHS professionals ??–Are you ?

I’m only stating the facts, Duncan.

So am I Ian and can back it up ,there again the two parts of the country have different legislation as regards the NHS as the northern part is devolved in control from Westminster.
Look Ian I am not going to devulge anything more personal just let me say the person concerned is “near ” to me and I have it from a top professional in the field .
I do not wish to add to that..

The dispute seems to be over the classification, not the condition. I accept Ian’s definition of the condition of agoraphobia as an anxiety disorder, but I can also see that it can be categorised as a mental illness for the purposes of care and treatment. The classification of many conditions does vary across the UK according to how inclusive or exclusive the health authorities wish to be in the allocation of resources.

I put exactly what you said John and was told direct from the NHS -quote it was a mental illness.
I spent the same time arguing it was not but was overruled by the NHS staff in my area.
If you dont care to belief me fine I wasn’t enamored by the definition either but was forced to accept it even when I made an official complaint .
Do you need it in blood John ?

I have no reason to doubt your word, Duncan.

I was just trying to explain how there can be confusion over the way the same condition is treated in different parts of the NHS.

There’s no need to make offensive remarks at the end of your comment, but I have noticed you are doing that a lot these days with challenges to contributors or demands for substantiation of any counter-opinion. You claim freedom of speech for yourself so please grant it to others unconditionally. Thank you.

Look John if I am continually doubted and have to go to great lengths to prove I am right and even when I do its grudgingly accepted then you develop a kind of “embattled ” state .
I notice you dont criticise some who make derogatory remarks at me but when I reply I am the one in the wrong .
Check out my posts recently and you will see its not me thats starts it off, as you say if you give it out you must take it –no problem with that but a massive problem with ignoring who started it and putting the “searchlight” on me .
I apologise if I made that remark but when you personally are involved in something not something found on a psychology answers website its a bit upsetting when you are not believed .
Look to where this stems from the very person who makes outrageous remarks about me and none of you criticise him –that leaves me to only one conclusion.

Actually, Duncan, when you say “its not me thats starts it off” in a sense that’s not entirely correct. You frequently post assertions but not always with the evidence to back them up. Naturally, others will want to know more and that’s when you become defensive and aggressive.

In this instance I was simply explaining how Agoraphobia is defined, but it’s a complex condition – as I’ve said – and can be defined as a mental illness in some circumstances. That’s usually when it’s an outlier indicative of a more serious mental illness.

Can I suggest that this tone of exchange does not continue? I think a blind ear or a deaf eye should be employed. Duncan has been told by a health professional that Agoraphobia is a mental illness. Here is what the NHS says. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/agoraphobia/
I expect the line dividing anxiety from a mental illness is very blurred.

The recent discussion is irrelevant to the cost of paying for care, the topic we have been invited to discuss.

Suffice to say agoraphobia could be categorized as a mental disorder which is treatable as such, as opposed to mental illness which is essentially more of a pathological nature in its identification and diagnosis.

I trust we can now move on to find more constructive ways in which to solve the current crises that exists in UK social care essentially pertaining to care homes without further ado.

Thanks George. I get the feeling Emma doesn’t have to hurry back – the government is moving at a snail’s pace on this.

Thanks, Emma

Obviously, it has slipped again . . . or did they mean 2019?

If a care home is the best place for your Mum then you could look at getting money from the existing home through equity release.
https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/equity-release
https://www.which.co.uk/money/pensions-and-retirement/youre-retired-working-on-benefits-equity-release/equity-release/what-is-equity-release-a5jqy4d36xlv
Read up carefully before deciding.

Does you Mum not have a pension – private or state – that would provide the extra £115 a week?

Dear Malcolm,
Optalis was set up by the Council and the Area Health using people of their choice,some of them actually working for the Council in conjunction with the LHA. Some of the Patients involved will require NHS treatment at HOME OR IN A NURSING HOME and therefore should be NHS funded. I am not aware of which Authority is paying for Optilas but I agree it should be the Health Authority.
The important point is that Optalis is actually working and have really good results in a very short time and this concept needs to be introduced Nationwide and could be the answer to quite a few of the staffing problems the NHS is experiencing .It might also be in answer to the problems of placing people with Alzheimer’s and Dementia with getting DOLs some taking up to two years I believe.