It’s the final switch off for incandescent light bulbs

Fair comment if you are comparing exactly the same product. There are some cheap lamps on the market and I’m not sure how safe they are. I would be worried about fire risk.

I bought some Philips CFLs for 10p each from B&Q, albeit more than a year ago. I’ve seen the same ones on sale for more than £2. I will agree that B&Q is not usually the cheapest source.

If there was more demand for CFLs there would be more competition and prices might fall. The trouble is they last so long, at least for some of us. Even if you had to pay £10 per lamp you would recoup this in electricity savings. That is easy to calculate.

I think as far as pricing is concerned, the fact that for the first umpteen years of the aggressive campaigning to get us all to change over the Energy Companies were subsidising the cost of CFL’s so that they were being sold more cheaply in the shops, a fact which seems to have escaped the notice of many of the population until prices started to go up …..oddly at the same time that the first tungstens went off sale, what a strange co-incidence that was?! …. is probably why the larger stores are still selling at over-inflated prices. (I.e. to keep their profit margin where it was when the lamps were being subsidised.)

Of course, the cheap lamps in pound-shops may (or may not) be inferior quality too, I don’t know.

I do know that with every other “green” initiative or technology that I’ve had anything to do with, you have to buy the more (or most) expensive of whatever it is to stand a chance of making any real savings in the long run. I’m stopping short of saying that I believe that to be the case with CFL’s because I simply have not, and won’t for some time be, used enough of them. I have have a good number of bitter disappointments with cheaper CFL’s, especially the less-well-known brands, and I’ve had fantastic experiences with the Old Phillips ones, but bitter disappointments with newer Phillips ones. At present the best I have first-hand experience of are Crompton and Sylvania ones. Since mum’s house was re-wired almost 2 years ago all of her lights have had these brands in and all are still operating, even though she has lights on an awful lot of the time. That said, they still have had to be 30w plus to give the level of light that she used to get, and still requires for reading an needlework, from 150w and 250w tungstens, and getting hold of 30w of higher cfl’s is not as easy as I think it should be.

You are right in saying that dimming an incandescent lamp makes it last very much longer but your guess that it will use much less power is completely wrong. Incandescent bulbs operated below full brightness are extremely uneconomical, though this is not well known. I am surprised they have not been banned for this and other reasons.

The traditional use of table lamps and wall lamps with smaller lamps at full brightness is far more economical. Dimmable CFLs can flicker. Beware that some LED lamps are unsuitable for dimming.

Unfortunately, it is unlikely that CFLs will be made small enough to suit your needs, rocky. The problem is that the designers of light fixtures failed to plan ahead in the last 20 years. LED lamps might prove suitable.

Bell make some excellent LED gold ball lamps – exactly same size as tungsten ones and available in white and many colours. Only one they don’t do is clear. They’re real glass and they don’t have a huge electronics unit at the base. In fact, they are indistinguishable from Tungsten golf ball lamps.

Only down side that I know of is that they are only available in up to 4 watts LED, which are claimed to be equivalent to 25w tungsten but I’d say they are more like 15w tungsten. Might still be worth investigating for multi-light fittings.

Actually, I do also have a couple of CFL gold ball lamps. The actually globe is the same size as a tungsten golf ball, but the electronics unit at the base is quite large so may not be any use for your fittings rocky. These are (so far) the most long-lived cfl’s I’ve ever had and I use them in fully enclosed “brick light” exterior fittings. They’ve done longer in there (two years by the end of this year) than any other CFL’s I’ve had in the same fittings. Can’t remember the brand but they were not a big name brand. Got them in a local independent department store in a sale. If I remember, I’ll have a look inside one of the brick lights at the weekend and post the brand for you.

I think the problem is partly related to using small CFLs rather than larger ones. They have been created to meet the demand for direct replacement of incandescent bulbs but CFL ‘candle bulbs’ are rather pathetic and perhaps appropriately named.

Whereas an incandescent bulb produces a continuous spectrum, a fluorescent lamp emits light at certain frequencies depending on the phosphor coating on the inside of the tube. Looking at a typical CFL through a hand spectroscope I can see a complex spectrum including purple, blue, green, yellow, orange and red.

LED lamps may well be the answer for you, and they seem to be evolving fast. I remember choosing some new-fangled LED panel indicators from the RS catalogue (probably still Radiospares in these days) in the 1970s. I don’t have any mains powered LED lamps but those in torches etc appear to produce a continuous spectrum.

Thanks Malcolm. I have a feeling this is the second time you have told me how white LEDs work. 🙂 One thing I have noticed is the subtle differences in colour available, already greater than we have seen with CFLs.

Having had a look at prices, if I wanted to replace small bulbs I would choose halogens until better LED lamps are available and the price has fallen.

I remember your comments about lamp adaptors in an earlier Conversation, Richard. I would not be surprised if we see these adapters reappear in the UK. It could be some time before we see affordable LED lamps that provide equivalent light output to an old fashioned 100 watt bulb and many of us are keen on bright lighting.

I am surprised that you don’t find CFLs reliable. Using them on dimmers, in enclosed fittings or small lampshades, or in outdoor lighting are good ways of killing them prematurely, but the well known brands used with reasonable ventilation generally last a long time for the people I know.

LEDs supplied in replacement bulbs seem to be in limited powers from the major manufacturers. Philips do a 17W to replace a 75W incandescent for example, with the bulk 11W and below (60W and below incandescent equivalent) and 4W round and candle versions. So the light output is generally restricted. A characteristic of LEDs is that they are temperature sensitive – as you make them more powerful by putting in more current, they get hotter and the light output efficiency falls significantly. So buying a high power LED lamp from a non-mainstream source may not give the results expected. And if the controlling electronics are integral, they will likely have a shortened life if too hot.

These are the factors I am concerned about, Malcolm. Now that you have reminded me about the phosphors in white LEDs, I wonder if they will deteriorate with time, as with fluorescent lamps of all types. That does not seem to be a problem with the low power LED lamps produced in recent years, but I do wonder what will happen when more power is pushed in to achieve the light output of say a humble 100 watt incandescent bulb.

It’s not difficult to see the overall cost benefit of low energy lighting and if this had been publicised better rather than forcing people to switch, the transition could have been a lot less traumatic.

I know people who have hoarded incandescent light bulbs before they disappeared from the shops, yet are now using CFLs by choice. It’s a strange world.

Malcolm – if you know of any decent and up-to-date information about these practical considerations I would be very grateful for references. As with fluorescent lighting, it would be good to separate the control electronics from the source of heat, but most householders are still looking for a direct replacement for a bulb.

Thanks, so I’ve put in a 75w incandescent and the surround glass gets too hot to hold. Didn’t have 60 or 40.

I agree, Dave. It is absurd. We know that individual low power LEDs have an extremely long life, but what happens if you cram them together, put more power through them, and let them and the control electronics get hot? I would not be surprised if white LEDs (which contain a phosphor, like CFLs) decrease in brightness if they do survive for a few years.

We need to push for at least a ten year guarantee on these lamps.

I am waiting until prices fall, reliability improves and problems with radio interference are overcome before buying LED lamps.

wavechange: I have replaced most of the bulbs (mostly CFLs) in my house now apart from a couple of original 150w which for now there is as yet no alternative. I have sufficient spares to last many years. I am happy with the light output and colour balance of the LED replacements. I have not experienced any RF interference and I have a lot of equipment which could be prone to such. One advantage is the fact that in the kitchen, utility room and bathroom I no longer get heat on my head from the spotlights! I have some dimmable LED spotlights and they behave much as the original halogens they replaced. I note that Philips has increased the guarantee period on some branded LED bulbs up to 5 years now but as you say it would be more appropriate for it to be at least 10 years even if it was just a marketing ploy to increase sales.

Maybe you should look in on the Conversation about radio interference caused by LED lamps and suggest that those with problems should buy better products. It’s fairly clear that there is some real rubbish on the market.

Those using boats and recreational vehicles were early adopters of LEDs since incandescent lighting since they are dependent on power stored in batteries. The problem of voltage spikes causing failure of LED lamps has been well known for years. It is common advice to avoid using domestic 12 volt LED lamps and buy ones that have spike protection. There is at least one company selling lamps with spike protection and thermal fuses for this market.

I agree that lamps that cannot withstand spikes are unfit for their purpose. I wonder if voltage spikes have contributed to premature failure of CFLs that some people have experienced.

Perhaps Which? could test lamps to find out if they can survive voltage spikes in future reviews of LED lighting.