Brexit: consumer needs must be front and centre

Well said I could not have put it better myself I was born in 1945 so do remember a country that was Much BETTER than the one we live in now ! yes we were recovering from the war & times were hard but at least we went by British laws

[Sorry, your comment has been edited as it breached our Community Guidelines. https://conversation.which.co.uk/commenting-guidelines/ Thanks, mods.]

Sorry to disagree with you Annoyed. I am sure that if you had researched properly, you might have a different point of view. The EU has many faults and the members should speak out and debate their points. We cannot do this if we are not in. Major wars have been avoided by EU membership and the real reasons for the loss of manufacturing is not due to Eu membership. Major British companies did not invest enough in their businesses in order to make them viable, preferring instead to take profits without investing. I believe that closer unity of all peoples is the way forward to a better life.There are problems all over the world, so let us help each other rather than try to be isolated from each other.

[Sorry, your comment has been edited due to an edit to a previous comment in this thread. Thanks, mods.]

I completely agree – we must have control over,our own destiny and safeguard the future of our children and grandchildren.

I was born in 1942 and remember well that Britain in the 50’s was awash with immigrants and refugees from WW2. Poles who’d got here and flown our fighters and cracked the German codes. Jews who’d escaped the transport to death camps and revitalised our businesses, Indians and Jamaicans who’d come to man our lathes and mines. Without immigrants we would never have recovered from that war.

[Sorry, your comment has been edited due to an edit to a previous comment in this thread. Thanks, mods.]

I was born in 1940 in N.Norfolk and so lived through the war as a child. We had evacuees living with us. Immigration began in the early 1950’s when the British government invited any person from the Commonwealth to bring their family to the British Isles to work usually in menial jobs that British people did not want. These were people from the Carribean ( then known as West Indians) and also from India and Pakistan. Many Australians came as well but later on. This started the multicultural society that many of us are happy to live in and that you are blaming on Tony Blair and the EU! Leaving the EU is not going to send all the ‘Immigrants’ back because many of them are second, third generation. There are still parts of the UK where you can live without immigrants if you chose – Norfolk being one of them. I live in N.London now in a Polish/Turkish area and I love the multicultural society. Its sad that you should feel so threatened by this myth perpetuated by the millionaire owners of the Daily Mail and Daily Express. These opinions will die out with future generations.

[Sorry, your comment has been removed for being off-topic. Thanks, mods.]

[Sorry, your comment has been removed as the previous comment it related to has been removed. Thanks, mods.]

8 percent? Yeah right. Under Tory led governments, since 2014, MPs pay has been upped to £74,000, an increase of over 14% and had their final pensions bumped up to £37,750, which represents an increase of 12.6%.

Luckily, Jan, Norfolk now has large populations of Poles, Lithuanian and Portuguese as well as smaller numbers from other parts of Europe, and Commonwealth countries, and some from elsewhere in the world. They make a vital contribution to the economy, are not taking jobs away from others, are not clogging up the doctors’ and hospital waiting rooms, are not draining the benefits fund, and are successfully bringing up new families to replace those who are seeking their fortunes elsewhere. Most of the voters in Norfolk, however, with the honourable exception of Norwich, were very anti-EU in the Referendum and, to our shame, a not insignificant minority chose to express themselves in a racist manner with unjustified allegations. The outcome is that workers from EU countries on whom agriculture and the tourism and hospitality industry depend are fearful of their future here and employers are finding it hard to hire enough people for seasonal work. I am in favour of managing our borders but it should not mean locking the gates.

Hello John, we did indeed write to David Davis before we published this in The Times. We wanted to bring it to the attention of consumers and you by doing so, and by publishing this year.

Do Which? have detailed proposals as to how they want consumers protected after Brexit?

Thanks Patrick. It wasn’t obvious. Presumably we shall be shown the reply in due course.

Fair point John – will keep you updated.

I’ll get back to you Malcolm.

Yes, please do, Jane.

It sounds like Which? is doing a lot in the background, so please keep up the good work and don’t let the Jeremiahs put you off.

Seconded. Enthusiastically so.

I’m all for rewarding people for their efforts in life but I’m none too keen on rampant consumerism. Even though I don’t live in the more affluent south of England, I can see plenty of signs of excessive wealth. I don’t think we need totalitarianism but I think that some redistribution of wealth (e.g. by taxation) is needed to help maintain stability in a country that is facing considerable uncertainty.

This comment was removed at the request of the user

I am not sure that you and I live in markedly different worlds, Duncan, but I do see both sides. But my point is really that none of this deprivation compares with the austerity of the great depression in the Thirties or during WW2 and its aftermath; I regard use of the word ‘austerity’ as careless and insensitive to those who lived through far worse times.

Incidentally, in a previous post I forgot to mention that I endorse your point about the disability test arrangements. I think they have become undignified and demeaning in many cases and this stems from a government distrust of family doctors being able to provide an honest and objective assessment. But the solution – compelling people to visit an outsourced testing station to see how far they can walk without falling over, etc – is the wrong one and typical of political objectivisation of people needing care and attention. Yes, there have been cases of fraudulent claims [as shown in the popular press and certain TV channels] but there are better ways of dealing with that particular problem.

Even though it can be exaggerated by the press, there is little doubt that Duncan is right. Drugs and alcohol are major factors.

Duncan is certainly right, and many of the 80% I alluded to are in denial and turn a blind eye to the social problems in our midst. There is also marked general intolerance of any problems that are thought to be self-inflicted.

The trouble with some of the causes is that they exacerbate existing problems. like being out of work, losing the home, deteriorating health and well-being, and they lead to depression, crime, self-harm and eventual total personal disintegration. These problems are also hidden from view in some communities and have given rise to appalling forms of exploitation and mistreatment.I believe I was being realistic is guessing that 20% of the population might be at some point on this spectrum of deprivation, but of course it might be less because there are many compound cases where the same person presents numerous states both physical and psychological.

I have to agree with you Duncan. I live in the south east and can see no signs of 80% of people having a fabulous lifestyle. In fact, I see the complete opposite. Certainly the top 1% are enjoying fabulous wealth, now more than ever before. There is no austerity for the wealthy and all evidence proves that inequality levels are at an all time high. Foodbanks are the fastest growth industry in the UK. I would respectfully refer you to the 2017 Inequality Report by the Institute of Fiscal Studies to confirm my point. https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/9192

I don’t know where you live Jim Ward, but it’s not happening here. Don’t believe all you see on the telly. Queues at golf courses relate to supply and demand – on ‘busy’ days. The several golf courses round my area are virtually empty except at weekends – I drive by them and observe! At a personal level we are considering moving house because our joint (teachers’) pensions have fallen behind so badly. A doctor’s appointment at our local surgery must now be booked about two weeks ahead; schools are finding it hard to recruit staff in may areas as potential teacher trainees realise they will never pay off their debts – or afford to have a family. The I trained (4 year degree) I was supported by my parents and there were no “tuition fees”, now teachers are paid less than train drivers and must pay off huge debts when they should be concentrating on their work and progress. But yes, the “availability” of life-style “choices”, now on (almost) everyone’s computers and/or “smartphones” has changed the world. High-pressure consumerism (force-fed “I want-ism”) is, as you say, at the heart of it – and all for the off-shore piggy banks!

which area do you live in? 80% ! – come north – most of us are living on the breadline, buy our clothes from the charity shops and try to keep our heads above water so that we do not have to go to a food bank. My husband and I have gone without in order to pay bills all our lives and, apart from our mortgage which we were able to take out before the price of houses shot up, never borrowed money. We are now in the position that we own our home, but on a government pension by the time we have paid our household bills and insurance there is nothing left for food, holidays, clothing etc. In my 70s I have to go to work to put food on the table. I would reverse the figures – maybe 20% could share the prospects you outline – but I have never met any of them….. We certainly do know what austerity means and many were not frightened off voting to leave by Cameron because we are already living in the situation he was describing!

And many more people earn minimum wage for their endeavors.

And many more people earn minimum wage for their endeavors.

This comment was removed at the request of the user

My two-penn’orth is that Which? is mostly funded by, and primarily aimed at, individual UK consumers. I have no interest in its profile on a world stage; I see that as a distraction, as well as an abstraction of resources. I don’t believe Which? needs to be a mainly commercial operation. It is a service to its subscribers for which it has a satisfactory reputation. It also has charitable aims and I fully support those as a legitimate use of its resources so long as they remain beneficial to UK consumers and not just self-regarding gestures. I wish Which? could be relied on to avoid commercial sponsorship and dubious ventures that compromise its independence and objectivity. I certainly don’t think it should compete against other commercial operations [for example, mortgage-broking] because that opens the risk that Which? cannot be impartial in commenting on such trade.

I generally support the line that Patrick T advances on Which?’s position. I don’t bang the drum because it is not a high priority of mine but I am with him all the way and have felt so for a long time. If I were a member and not just a subscriber I might feel more passionately about it.

Hi all, thank you for your feedback on this. Patrick, I appreciate that this is important to you. I’d really like us to stay on the topic of the Brexit negotiations and how consumers should be represented, whether by Which? or by other consumer organisations. As ever, if you have comments that are somewhat off topic, please visit The Lobby: https://conversation.which.co.uk/travel-leisure/the-lobby/ Which? Conversation works best when we can stay on the topic of discussion. Thank you, Patrick

I am afraid Duncan that you are sadly misinformed. Getting mentions on Google searches is not actually a viable business model in itself. Controlling costs and getting the most bangs for the buck are useful basis for a consumer body that is meant by its Articles to be subscription based.

But then I am actually an Ordinary Member and see the Accounts and as I also do Connect and Conversations so actually work to improve the offerings. I do also belong to consumer bodies in four other countries.

The chief problem is information overload and:
” On Monday, scientists revealed some of the reasons for the explosion of hoaxes and lies on social media—an information overload has left consumers unable to discern the good from the bad.
“Our results show for the fist time that low- and high-quality information have the same chances to succeed,” study co-author Diego Oliveira of Indiana University’s School of Informatics and Computing told AFP.
Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2017-06-overload-fuels-fake-news.html#jCp

We need very much to have a reliable , transparent, and commercial free place to get reliable information on consumer matters including product testing and this should be easily available.
look up sunglasses on the Which? Index and on Wikipedia and you will realise that one is user unfriendly and the other one packs more than enough information and with no reference to the UK market.

There is or should be a middle way.

I am afraid Duncan that you are sadly misinformed. Getting mentions on Google searches is not actually a viable business model in itself. Controlling costs and getting the most bangs for the buck are useful basis for a consumer body that is meant by its Articles to be subscription based.

But then I am actually an Ordinary Member and see the Accounts and as I also do Connect and Conversations so actually work to improve the offerings. I do also belong to consumer bodies in four other countries.

The chief problem is information overload and:
” On Monday, scientists revealed some of the reasons for the explosion of hoaxes and lies on social media—an information overload has left consumers unable to discern the good from the bad.
“Our results show for the fist time that low- and high-quality information have the same chances to succeed,” study co-author Diego Oliveira of Indiana University’s School of Informatics and Computing told AFP.
Read more at: phys.org/news/2017-06-overload-fuels-fake-news.html#jCp

We need very much to have a reliable , transparent, and commercial free place to get reliable information on consumer matters including product testing and this should be easily available.
look up sunglasses on the Which? Index and on Wikipedia and you will realise that one is user unfriendly and the other one packs more than enough information and with no reference to the UK market.

There is or should be a middle way.

This comment was removed at the request of the user

Hear! Hear! There is too much at stake for us to allow the UK to sleepwalk through Brexit.

I am surprised that people consider that consumer voices en masse will do anything at all in assisting the Brexit process. I like to consider all possibilities and then the likelihoods of what might happen and I simply cannot conceive what circumstance would apply where Which? or any other consumer body would be able to add value.

It has to be said that when TTIP was on the cards that Which? was entirely absent from explaining its values and dangers to subscribers. I may have missed something but at the moment I am not aware that there is a consumer angle that can be advanced on Brexit.

Except – you will appreciate that using our island’s resources better and importing less will be beneficial to the economy. Energy being a major cost to the country one might think the Govt. Hinkley Point [EDF] and the Severn Barrage would be one example of intelligent foresight.

As Which? campaigns regularly on energy costs perhaps it might campaign on the extraordinarily high guaranteed payments to the French power company and its Chinese financers all of which will be paid by us in the future.

The desire to connect the provinces even more quickly to London is of course nice for MP’s with far flung constituencies but as an infrastructure project is not much approved of. Consumers as a whole might benefit more from a large range of more useful projects on improving housing lowering energy costs, minimum broadband speeds and dealing with the PFI scandal where hospitals etc will be coming up for replacement with no hope of the government financing them.

So there you are Which? things to campaign on where we are not dependent on the machinations in Brussels and will improve the consumer lot above what might otherwise happen.

Not sure it’s about “consumer voices en masse [doing] anything at all in assisting the Brexit process”, Patrick; it’s more to do with the fact that we need to ensure the hard-won rights and protections for consumers continue as they are. Which? is – at its best – an advocate, and needs the evidence from W?Cs to strengthen its hand during the next two years.

This comment was removed at the request of the user

There are a lot of transitional issues that require intelligent assessment to ensure no detriment – and improvement if possible. There will be extensive changes in subsidies, regulations, protections and guarantees that could, unless supervised, adversely affect consumers. Personally, I can’t see why anyone should object to what Which? is trying to achieve. It can’t do any harm and might do a lot of good. I might sometimes disagree with the process but I support the objective.

This comment was removed at the request of the user

You cannot be serious. Even that staunch Brexiter (in fact a good friend of Boris Johnson) Dominic Cummins admitted yesterday that leaving the EU will be a disaster for Britain.

Marcus – To just give pause for thought on the contention that manufacturing is somehow superior to other forms of employment and should replace industries based on intellectual rather than material assets, I read recently that Sky employs 10,000 staff in the Brentford area of West London, mainly at its media hub.And we should replace that with metal-bashing for which the market is in decline? We need a diversity of industries, aimed particularly at those for which the world is seeking a supplier and not those for which it can already do the job better and cheaper.

We can still grow most of our own food and certainly should be doing this rather than relying on imports. The UK can offer a great deal in education and training.

Its Obvious People Do Not Understand Why We Should Leave The EU. We Want To Govern Ourselves. We Lost More JoiningThe EU. also Benefits Which Is Why Most Of The Immigrants Came Over Here In The First Place Should Have Been Paid On a Reciprical Basis. If We Paid Them What They Paid Us Would Our Numbers Have Been Less? Certainly They Would!!!!

This comment was removed at the request of the user

I think you mean Masochist, Duncan; a Nihilist is a person who believes that life is meaningless and rejects all religious and moral principles.

This comment was removed at the request of the user