Why is elderly care failing? Older people have human rights too

i do sympathize with the Elderly but as you cannot recruit enough of the local English nurses as most of them do not want to take on a physically and mentally “unpleasant” job, hence the NHS had for centuries has to go abroad to recruit foreign nurses who are lured to the promises of good pay and a attraction of a Nursing qualification. In reality, they are “Modern Day” Maids and may I say slaves because the local people are not prepared to do this most unpleasant demanding job!!!

I’m speaking from my own experiences as I’m a nurse for 38 years.

I have worked in Care Homes now for nearly 30 years and I have met nearly all types of people from all parts of the World and this leads me to believe that you really haven’t a clue about what you are talking about, In English Nursing Homes it is obligatory to staff 24/7 with a Qualified Nurse who must be Registered in England with the Authorities. All Nurses from abroad must be vetted by an existing Trained and Registered Nurse over a 6 Months period to ensure they are able to carry out their duties in the Care Home.
I am not aware of the regs. in the NHS but I believe many Nurses who have passed through our doors have subsequently worked in the NHS
.Please try and get out of your “Island” mentallity and understand one simple fact ie WITHOUT NURSES AND DOCTORS FROM ABROAD THE WHOLE SYSTEM IN THE NHS WOULD HAVE COLLAPSED YEARS AGO.
Perhaps the above concept is to large for small minds to understand but hey we keep on doing this thankless job of ours.

[This comment has been moderated for breaking our commenting guidelines. Thanks, mods.]

Dear Patrick,

Glad you are keeping your eye open wouldn’t want to upset people would we , even if they are demeaning and insulting to us .

We have employed Philipinoes (Mainly Qualified Nurses) for many years , becuase of the lack of British Nurses willing to do this work. They are also now being employed more and more by the NHS.
We have always found them to be hard working and pleasant people who come miles from Home solely to provide for their families at Home. Surely this attitude should be applauded and not ridiculed.

I trained as a S.E.N in 1979, then much later converted to R.G.N. My experience over the years was mostly care of the elderly in hospital. I also spent many years as a Community Nurse which again was mostly elderly care. When I was being trained in College/ University we were taught to nurse at a high standard. My experience on the wards was a complete contrast, there was never enough staff, days/night shift, many patients didn’t get the care they deserved such as personnel hygiene, help with feeding, and finding time to communicate and help with mobility. Myself and many other members of staff/ team were just as frustrated, we had been trained to a high standard but felt we were failing our patients needs and there family’s needs, it was impossible to maintain such high standards when we had a shortage of staff, which was often I might add. I became disappointed and frustrated and I felt a failure. I moved jobs and became a community nurse which was so much more satisfying.

The care of our elderly loved ones is a disgrace, be it in hospital, residential care and nursing homes, I have from my own personnel account of this as my elderly aunt aged 91, and my friends elderly relative have both had a recent admission to hospital, both relatives were not fed or did they not have access to their drinking water, both were continent before admission, but shortage of staff made this another problem and caused extreme loss of dignity despite there age. I would also like to add that the meals they were offered was discussting, and we were taking food in. We were both told that they didn’t have time to feed relatives and we would have to go in and do this our selves. My cousin works full time and so does my friend, we had to sort this out our selves. This is disgusting!

The standard of care has dropped due to the fact that there are so many people being employed by the fact that they are holding the title of health care assistant, or personnel assistant and yes they have minimal training and are CHEAP!!!! Compared to a trained nurse.

Dear Gladys,
Nursing homes, as you know, are run by nurses if they are as bad as you say why have you and your colleagues not done anything about it in all the 24 years you have been working there. The nhs were in charge of nursing homes at this time and could have easily closed them down if they had wished.
Maybe nurse kathy’s memories of the hospitals might explain the problem which i had to deal with in trying to improve care in the private sector over the last 30 years.
The situation is still not perfect but and it never will be due to under funding of the private sector (cost of care home placement one quarter of the price of a hospital placement)
When condemning a nursing home please be so kind as to compare with the hospital equivalent which is four times the price.

[Hello Gerald, we have edited your comment to make it ‘sentence case’. Please try not to write in all Capital letters as per our commenting guidelines. Thanks, mods.]

This is happening all over the country, don’t blaim the care provider blaim the council and goverment for underfunding

The whole “system” is TOTALLY under the control of The Social Services Department of the County Council. The Fund, Specifiy services obtain tenders and place Contracts to Providers .
They are also repsoncible for monitoring and vetting the service and for removing any unsuitable Provider. The only other agency which has just recently been involved is the CQC which as others have pointed out doesn’t really get that involved as yet in vetting the Care at Home System.
Before even properly starting the Public Sector through various avenues have begun to blame the CQC for the mess that the “Care at Home” system is in >As usual the Public sector blames everyone (particularly the Private Sector) for the mess THEY have caused.

Glad to hear that mum is getting a workable pakage from your new Provider, some problems cannot be dealt with overnight.

I personally do not think that this system will ever work properly without the correct level of financing Bearing in mind the whole idea is that it should be cheaper than a the Residential Care Home which it’ s supposed to replace at £500 per week for 24/7 Care

Dear Anthony,
I have been involved with Care of the Elderly for nearly 30 years and I have met many different people from all over the world and to say the least I am amazed to read your comments degrading your colleagues and the rest of this Country, you obviously haven,t visited other Countries and seen the appalling conditions out there.The main reason we have found for “Native workers” not taking up jobs is that the dole system encourages them not to.
In the Group I work for Good Caring “Native ” workers are by far in the majority maybe it’s your own employment policies (as a manager) you should be looking at

I have heard that the legal position in Germany is that adult children are responsible for their parents in old age and that the state can look to them to fund care home fees.

I agree – where the elderly have children it should be a family responsibility to help in their care when they need it. For those without family help, and lack of finance, then the socially-run care system should look after them. This would relieve pressure on an overloaded system, but more importantly provide loving and considerate care. For most of us, our parents looked after us when we needed them – payback time (hopefully for most of us a willing, if maybe inconvenient, act of love and respect).

I wonder what the majority of the population would say if that were to become the law in the UK? If one of the main political parties were to put it in its next manifesto, would it be regarded as a vote winner or a vote loser? Presumably, it would attract the votes of the older generation. Would it lose the votes of the younger ones? Would this be a new political divide? I wonder if anyone has ever done any research into it and, if so, what was the result. Perhaps, if there were one of those 100,000 petitions it would achieve a debate in Parliament. Should we ask “Which” to look into it?

@ Ariadne

‘I have heard that the legal position in Germany is that adult children
are responsible for their parents in old age and that the state can look
to them to fund care home fees.’

Singapore has similar laws too but it is rarely if at all enforced coming
from a legal practitioner or lawyer there well-versed in such matters.

What are views on this? At a social event, I was talking to an accountant/economist, he said that UK plc just cant afford better care etc and that it relies a lot on the statistical fact that a lot of people do not actually live long enough to take a pension over years. He felt that it would be more realistic for the state to say – you can have 5 to 10 years pension maximum after you retire – apart from that you are on your own! He said that would be one mammoth incentive for people to take more interest in their retirement plans!

Ariadne – interesting thought. Presume limiting pensions to everyone – private or state – for 5 years would soon see a decline in population and less strain on the public finances. It would simply leave an independently wealthy older generation. Alternatively we could vote for compulsory euthanasia at 65 and get rid of the whole problem?

That`s what I first thought – but would it? On a purely objective theoretical level, I reflected and could see – on an individual level, it would force one to think about one`s future; on a family level, it might bring about a degree of cohesion – greater inter-dependence. However, I would be against compulsory euthanasia. On the other hand, I would be in favour of assisted suicide or whatever the correct expression is in appropriate circumstances. I spent 10 days at a parent`s bedside in hospital. The Liverpool Pathway was in operation. At the time, I was so upset that I did not realise what it meant. Looking back now and almost ever since, I would not wish that on anyone – myself included. There must be a better way to die – but now I suppose I am going off topic. I do, however, recollect seeing Edward G. Robinson in the film “Soylent Green” – that was a thought provoking way to go.

Ariadne, I hope you realise I was being facetious? The whole concept of withdrawing finance from pensioners who have worked all their lives, paid tax and NI, and brought up the preceding generation is ludicrous.

The state pension costs us around £63 bn a year currently. We could contribute another £10 bn towards this by abolishing higher-rate tax relief on pension contributions, and by scrapping the tax free 25% lump sum concession. Money is short – use it better when times are hard.

I do not understand why, if cash is in short supply, we give £10 bn in foreign aid (second in the world to USA). Nor do I understand, when we have better things to spend money on, why we insist on being a “world power”, spending £20-34 bn on Trident replacement, £9 bn on aircraft carriers and aircraft (plus running costs) – why do we not get the EU to fund European defence?

Oh, please do not misunderstand me. Any change would have to take years, no decades. If there were to be any mileage in it, it would have to be phased in over generations. The teenagers of today would be the ones to be affected. Mind you, judging by the way things are going, there might not be a world for them in 50 years time! Someone told me that the national debt is so large that it would take £85,000 from everyone in the country to clear it. Is that correct?

My understanding is that international aid is unofficially linked to international trade. No one would admit it officially. I am sure there are statistics somewhere to show the relevant figures.

As regards state pensions and lifetime contributions, the problem is that it and the welfare system generally came into play as a result of things like the Beveridge report. However, 70 years ago people did not have the life expectancy they have now. Nor did the health service cover anything like the range of things it does now. State outgoings were expected to relate to incoming national insurance payments with the balance being met by general taxation. The problem is that the outgoings have ballooned and there would be a general outcry if NI and tax did likewise. The logical solution would be to re-introduce the link between lifetime contributions and later pension payments subject to a means-tested safety net for those in difficulty. In other words National INSURANCE should operate in the way it was originally meant to operate.

Whilst I am extremely grateful for the NHS and the welfare system, I am forced to admit that UKPlc cannot afford it in its present form… and the financial burden is going to get worse as time goes on and more people become older.

As regards spending financial resources on military/naval hardware, I believe that this is again set off against a mixture of not just political policies (both national and international) but also economic on the basis of the number of people employed and UK companies involved – both directly and along the supply chain. These companies can then use their “success” as a basis for seeking sales to other governments.

All in all, it is a question of priorities. In the state`s eyes, paying for care for the elderly does not produce much of an economic return in cold financial terms. That is why it loses out to other things. If we want that to change, then we would have to be prepared for a big increase in general taxation. That is why I am forced to the view that the only way to survive long term is to have families gain more cohesion, be less dysfunctional, and provide support between themselves – a naïve and idealistic utopian concept, if ever there was one!

“To have pensions linked to wages is absurd. Pensioners need all looking after in their old age but none of them are contributing to society so why should a previous GP get more than a previous bin man. The GP had many years to save up the extra income he got used to.”

I did not suggest that pensions be linked to wages. I suggested that the amount of pension be linked to what one has contributed over a lifetime to his pension “account”, with a safety net for those in need. If a GP were to contribute more financially over his lifetime to his “account”, then he/she should receive more as a pension at the appropriate time, based on proper actuarial data etc.

Problem is – I don’t think UKPlc can afford to pay us all a proper pension – even if Trident etc were to be scapped. The country has been living beyond its means for too long. Politicians talk about reducing “the deficit”. They don`t seem to appreciate that the underlying “debt” is actually increasing every month. I suppose we would end up like Greece if the true state of affairs were to be addressed. Pretty depressing all round – not just for today`s pensioners but for generations to come.

“I suggest we should have enforced payment contributions to personal pensions by both employers and employees that will give a “living income” on retirement. This should be investment-based.”

For what it`s worth, I agree in principle – but have you looked at the annuity market? Have you seen how charges eat away at investments? For the vast majority of people, it seems to be impossible to earn enough to build up a sufficiently large sum to provide a “living income”. Oh yes, if only the problem had been addressed much earlier. Part of the ongoing problem is that the politicians are afraid to face facts and tell us all the truth and come up with hard solutions because they are afraid of losing votes.

ariadne, this is not a short term fix. It needs a long term solution. So saving for retirement should start at the beginning of your working life. Annuity costs is a separate issue – you have to pay someone to manage your money but annuity is not the only option. You can take out a SIPP – either manage it yourself if you are confident, or pay someone to manage it for you.
Another issue with state pensions is they a universal benefit – so many will get them who are not dependent on them, and not needy. They are paid for out of current tax and NI (aka tax), not out of money you have saved. So we could pay better pensions if they were targetted.

I agree that the public sector is a problem – but, unless everyone takes a “hit”, then this will probably be done over the medium to long term. Those working in the public sector would respond that their wages are generally lower and that they have planned their lifestyles upon the basis of what has been promised to them.

If there is a solution, then it has to be fair to all. It will take time – but, most of all, it needs the political will to do it. This requires the electorate to be realistic – but who is going to vote for a candidate, who is promising to make your life worse?

This is why I believe a start has to be made within families. Once the true extent of the problem is recognised, then and only then might there be the beginning of a political will to actually deal with all the inter-linked issues such as pensions, NHS and caring arrangements.

Two other theoretical options would be – give the politicians a longer period in power so that they are not so concerned about the next election or – forget about the politicians and let the civil servants or other professionals run the system!

Hi Malcolm,
Funding is the major problem, and there are Acts of parliament which are responsible for determining the State Funding, the main problem lately is that the criterion laid down in these Acts have been manipulated by the Local Government and the NHS, so that previously NHS funded patients are coming under the means tested system applied by the Councils.
I have tried to get information regards this system , with little success but it seems that it is all down to reducing costs in the NHS and making the Public pay privately, if this is the case, it is totally against the original concept of the NHS and there-fore illegal .
To fully understand the above one needs to look back at Residential Home placements (council funded) and Nursing Home Placements over the last 30 years.
Bye the way the CQC gets its funding from fees paid by Care home Operators (£4500 per year for a 40 bed Home based on bed numbers) and other establishments such as Hospitals (Private & NHS)
I agree that the CQC has had a rocky start a lot of this was due to using old Council staff.
If you look at the new people I think you will agree there is hope now for the future.

Hello again Gerald,
I generally agree. However times have changed and more people have wealth to help fund their care – although it is unpalatable to have to sell the family home when some others, who have not bothered to save for their care in later life, get the same treatment funded by the state. In times of austerity I think funds have to be targetted at the deserving and needy – money is limited so we need to make best use of it.
I still think there are improvements that money cannot buy – like getting rid of unsuitable staff (at all levels) who mistreat, or condone ill-treatment of, inmates. We should encourage people to complain about mis-treatment, ensure they have adequate support or evidence, and treat them in confidence while the investigation takes place. I hate the term “whistleblower” – reminds me of “snitch” – but unless people are prepared to stand up for what is right, how can we ever expose malpractice? Good luck to the reformed CQC.

Dear Malcolm

Are you referring to the recent cases of cover ups by the exec of CQC , if you are you might remember me referring to completely biased actions of the CQC for many years, this is also happening in other institutions such as the BBC,THE NHS,THE LOCAL COUNCILS,MINISTRY OF HEALTH ETC. if you check out the common denominator all all these is UNISON isn’t it ?? It seems as though the Public Sector is not so unbiased as they would like us to believe.

ekc, if the UK had not been so reckless with borrowing money to fritter away our problem would be less. Close to home, look at the ridiculous costs of PFI that government used to avoid debt on the books. Look at NHS and Defence lack of control over procurement. Money wasted on useless computer systems. As examples.

Dear Malcolm,
It is all very clever to look at the grand view but I think that doing so totally takes peoples minds from the real issue which is that the Government (both parties) with the aid of Public officials are forcing the Public to pay for Care which was previously funded by the NHS ,if you refer to the NHS Act this is illegal , there has already been court cases which have acknowledge this and still this goes on .Most Councils and NHS PCTs have colluded in this .What I cannot understand why the Public has not been made aware.
For current conversations on this refer to other WHICH conversations.
It is not the Public’s fault as you say most of the blaim should go to the NHS Management for being totally inefficient and wasteful .This situation is appalling and like most things in the NHS people are gagged, paid off , and generally ignored.

Hi EKC
To complicated just deal with the main issue concentrate on getting the NHS to be efficient, at the moment it cna’t even be bothered to collect its debts from Private Payers from abroad (only running at approx £500,000,000 Five Hundred Million) yes £1/2 BIllION Pounds and then impose real purchasing directives between the PCTs and the TRUSTS.
Whilst I totally agree with everything you say regards the Banks I really think such a world wide problem is out of the scope of this conversation and could just rather cloud the issue.

Dear Ariadne,

With the existing Management structure of the NHS there isn’t a solution, I think that all the latest Governments have sort and obtained advice and non of them had have the guts to take on the problem.
Everyone seems to be blaiming the Banks for all our ills and to some extent I can see their point but Banks have been s******g everyone around the world for Centuries , the NHS only came into existence in the 1940 ‘s.
It is not the concept which is wrong it is the way it is being managed (what ‘s new?)

So – if either and/or both of the two of you were in power – what realistic and possible solution would either and/or both of you propose? It is no good just complaining – we have to move forward.

Dear Ariadne,
Encourage WHICH? to carry out a campaign against the Local Authorities and the NHS Rip off to stop them making Nursing Care “Means tested” .
Bring back the old system wherbye Doctors are responcible for determining medical needs for Care Home placements instead of Beurocrats .
Deal with the problem at hand , do not try to deal with World Wide problems as other are trying to do,this is totally confusing and unnecessary.Just a reminder for everyone what this conversation is
all about “Why is elderly care failing? Older people have human rights too” I suggest this is Everyones rights under the NHS Act where it states quite clearly treatment is free and now we also have a choice of “where” Why are we being means tested I ask, simple question requires simple answer !

Yes Gerald you are right we did stray a bit. However the problem is that there is no money to go round which is why people are now being means tested. We can all scream and say but it should not but when there is no money because it was frittered away and the IMF stood there actively encouraging the UK to borrow, what do we do?? GP’s salaries went up far too high under labour which does not help. Once a wage goes up it is difficult to reduce it but it has a knock on effect. Yes we can bury our head in the sand and say but we need to talk about why the elderly care is failing and do not look beyond it. However the picture is much wider which is why we need to look further. It is all very complex. The biggest problem is however there is no money to go round any more and as usual the most vulnerable are hit first, in this case the elderly. So where do we take the money from?? Overpaid GP’s, too much management in the NHS, bureau cratic failure in collecting monies from overseas???

dear exc
Since nursing care is the responcibilty of the NHS why shouldn’t we make them responcible , why shouln;t we expect them to be efficient, why should we let them get away with murder.
why should we turn a blind eye to the failings of the NHS ???
THE nhs COSTS US ALL BILLIONS if you look at your stoppages in your wages or salaries you will find that the National Insurance costs more than all the PAYE put togther.
if one paid this amount of money to , say BUPA wouldn;t one expect good value for money or at least them to deliver a reasonable service ??

Surely that is the whole ethos of WHICH? CONSUMER, why don’t we apply it to thePUBLIC Sector and PRIVATE sector provivions alike.and stop being biased against the PRIVATE SECTOR

Hi Gerald,
There is absolutely no reason why we should not expect them to be efficient. The NHS is one of the best things achieved and we should expect it to be efficient. That is my whole point. It does cost us all a lot and since the employer is supposed to pay slightly more in contributions than the employee you are right it costs more than the payee put together. But as mentioned before when governments squander money on a lot of things in the NHS to cover up unemployment for one than this big machine gets too big to run efficiently. Creating jobs out of thin air, upping up the wages of GP’s by some 50% etc etc is costing us all dearly. It has a ripple effect that unfortunately is felt by the most vulnerable the hardest, the elderly in care homes.. My Father in Law went to a care home which had a committee of elderly residents and the home was run very well indeed. This a very good way of running them but they are very far and few between.
BTW I work in the private sector and feel biased against the public sector as they forever want more forgetting that the private sector will have to pay for it.

Dear Emma,
The NHS Act of Parliament states ” Nursing Costs are the responcibilty of the NHS” and should be FREE to all . I don’t think you appreciate that the NHS with the aid of the Council Officials are insiduously making the Public Pat for this care through “Means |Testing” this is illegal and numerous Court Cases have found them guilty already why do they still persist I wonder,

The Proproitors of all Care Homes are responcible (Good and Bad) for the running of their homes and surely the Public will penalise them if they don.t like what they are being givenby taking their custom elsrwhere this is what is the Public’s right under freedom of choice isn’t it Try and get this service from any Public Sector provision.

Bye the way I was refering to the National Insurance Taxes as opposed to the Pay as you earn Taxes TOTALs for the Country.

I an pleased to hear that you work in the Private Sector, be Proud of what you do, if you really compare qualities in the Publice and Private Sectors by listening to a broad spectre of clients over a long period you might find numerous people who consider we are doing a good job. Please do not listen to the knockers of this world, they have no intention of giving us n unbiased opinion

Just rember the Publice have voted with their feet and funds to come to the Private Sector in spite of all the efforts of our Public Servants to the contrary

Keep up the GOOD WORK

All Best wishes

Gerald

I totally agree with you Gerald. Means testing is a nasty thing but it goes on unfortunately. Unfortunately not all old people have the luxury to choose a private care home and it is those I feel sorry for. I am proud to be in the private sector and am sick to death of all the moaning done by our public workers. (we have to work till 67, they want to bow out as early as 55 in some cases for one).

I agree with cutting out wasteful managerial layers. We should also stop paying outrageous fees to doctors who perform an A&E shift. However I believe in centralised hospitals – the medical benefits of concentrating excellence in both staff and facilities on one site far outweigh the convenience of having a local hospital. Much of A&E could better be dealt with at one level by GP health centres. Uninformed view, of course.

ekc, agreed. I was not against local general hospitals, but centralising specialist activities – e.g. heart, lung, cancer and the like.

Dear Beryl,
The question of who should or should not care for the elderly is left up to the Great British Public and should not be decided by Beurocrats after all we are supposed to be a Democrasy.
I have been in the business (and proud of it) for over 30 years, I have seen the Public making their choices (and paying as necessary) over this period of time and as you say the Public Sector Council run homes have been seriously lacking and nearfly all have been closed down in spite of many Councils subsidising them for years.The whole process is called freedom of choice which I would suggest is the Public prime motivator.
For an indicator of how ell the Public Sector regulates itself one only needs to look at the Mids StaffsHospital cover up by CQC and other childrens Hospitals where many children and old people died needlessly through further cover ups numerous wistle blowers inside and out were totally ighnored and harrased before someone listened, I can assure you ththat this abmissmal siuation would not have been condoned if it was the Private Sector. you really have got your assumptions the wrong way around.
Bye the way I really do not think the Cheif Exec, from a Private Company would have been given the lead role in the NHS (as happened to the Mid Staffs chappy) do you?

Beryl – Which has looked into care homes. Search for the Conversation: “Care homes are failing – but is it too hard to complain?” I think you are right to be concerned about the private sector too.

Hi Gerald,
Privately run homes can be much more efficient if the owner is not just in it for the money. Unfortunately a lot of them are, which goes at the cost of the people that need taking care of.
Publicly run homes have the problem of complete and utter inefficient bureaucratic leadership which means usually a badly run home.

I entirely agree with the majority of your response Gerald and understand your frustration and concerns but my “assumptions” are very much based on facts. Your views are quite correct in as much as we are a democratic society where freedom of choice is encouraged and respected.

Unfortunately in the real world there is always going to be people who for one reason or another (there is usually money involved) will take advantage of the sick and vulnerable (and incidentally their relatives!) As you know with your long experience this is a fact of life and nothing is entirely black or white.

The NHS is struggling financially with currently a third of hospitals millions in debt. Millions of £’s of taxpayers hard earned money is being spent on private care in privately run care homes. Do you know what % of this is being spent on patient care and what % lines the pockets of shareholders which could easily contribute towards our struggling NHS hospitals? We are not allowed this info as it comes within the remit of commercial confidentiality (similar to patient confidentiality as you can no doubt relate to working in the profession and restricts staff members in both the public and private sector blowing the whistle on negligence.) A large % of privately run hospitals are owned by foreign companies anyway, (many of them American.) Do we really want to revert to an American style health system?

Thank goodness as a result of The Mid Staffs debacle there have been changes made to the CQC Executive Committee who seem to be doing a much better job but I reiterate the onus is still on the patient or their relatives who have the unenviable task of challenging the system when mistakes are made. I too have had cause to complain to them in the past and have had partial satisfactory results but only through perseverance and persistence.
Let us hope that the CEO from the private company does a much better job ………….only time will tell!

Cheers for the info Wavechange. As a comparative latecomer to Which? conversation I missed out on the previous debate on Care Homes but will certainly search the “archives.”

Gerald, “I can assure you that this abysmal siuation would not have been condoned if it was the Private Sector”. As far as I am aware, Southern Cross, the Bristol care home and Whitstable as examples were in the private sector and mistreated their patients disgracefully? This seems to cut across both public and private sectors, so perhaps it is more related to bad people and management?

Absolutely. There is good and bad in both sectors. It would be interesting to know if Gerald has had any involvement with either.

Dear Malcolm,
The Southern Cross issue had nothing to do with Patient care ,this Group got into financial trouble because it didn’t make the large profits which everyone seems to think the Private Sector is guilty of. This was one of the largest groups in the Country and catered prodominately for State Funded clients, they had been asking the Local Authorities for realistic increases if fees for years and were continually ignored.
This Group were closed down in an efficient organised manor and its clients were assimilated into other Private Sector Care Homes with due care and attention.
Has the NHS closed down th Mid Staffs Hospital I wonder ? they have not gone bankrupt they just treated 100’s of people absolutely awful.It seems this is acceptable then, as long as one doesn,t make a profit ?? by the way has anyone actual compared what a NHS Trust gets paid for bed and breakfast with the Private Sector , I understand the NHS gets 4 times as much and still they can,t “make it Pay” Don’t tell me that the NHS is better, I really think that recent events disprove this

Gerald, I see this report as a patient care issue for Southern Cross: “Late in 2011, two staff at the company’s Orchid View care home in Copthorne, West Sussex, were arrested on suspicion of ill-treatment and neglect of residents.[19] The case had come to the notice of the authorities due to a whistleblower. A coroner’s ruling in 2013 found that 19 deaths at Orchid View were unexplained, but stated that under Southern Cross’ former management the home was “mismanaged and understaffed”, and rife with “institutionalised abuse”. Hardly an endorsement for the way the company operated. Assuming this entry in Wikipedia is accurate, of course.
As I said earlier, this kind of maltreatment seems independent of whether it is public or private. I cannot understand why we let it go on for so long without acting, and why we allow those responsible to go unpunished. If managers were held personally responsible for such “institutionalised abuse” perhaps they would take more care to see it didn’t happen – this includes directors who continue to rise up the public service ladder. They might then see it worthwhile putting in reporting systems to protect patients (and themselves) and not turning a blind eye.

Hi Gerald, you are right it does cost an absolute arm and leg to stay a night in an nhs hospital, equivalent to a 5 star hotel but of course not with the 5 star treatment and food you would expect.
Not sure how this can be justified.

I wonder if the next-of-kin ever sue on behalf of their elderly relations. In other words, if the abuse is not being punished in the criminal courts, then why not raise it in the civil courts. If financial pockets were to be affected, then improvements might come faster!

Ultimately directors are already responsible for what goes on in a firm but unless one prosecutes they walk away scotfree. Getting health and safety in might be an option.

emma, presumably the cost lies in the staff and expensive medical facilities in the hospital – in case you need medical intervention.
I have had no recent experience of hospital food but did see some of James Martin’s programmes. These highlighted a number of hospitals where food was simply badly prepared, not controlled by dieticians and terribly wasteful. He showed how by preparing menus and food properly, nutritious and enjoyable food could easily be offered within budget.
Another report shows how unprofessional is the general purchasing in hospitals – no coordination, prices varying wildly for common items from hospital to hospital, and overpricing. I hope it is not endemic, but the impression created is that there are a lot of people doing jobs in the NHS who are unprofessional (and lack common sense). Is that an unfair comment?

Emma – The hospital has trained staff and facilities to cope with medical problems. The hotel will probably have a first aider with a first aid box on duty, maybe a defibrillator if you are lucky. It is not a useful comparison.

No that is a fair assumption Malcolm. The cleaning gets contracted out and there is nobody checking them. There used to be a matron on every ward and things ran well. Now there is a coming and going of people and most do not know each other or if they should even be there.

I know that Wavechan and if any are needed that cost goes on top of everything else. Ever seen a break down of costs?? It will show you so much for the use of a bed, so much for this medication and that, so much for an xray, so much for the use of the operating room, so much to see Dr so and so. The list goes on. I was only referring to the bed and breakfast aspect.