Do you shop for fruit and veg online?

I think we need to consider the best way of selling soft fruit where the consumer eats the skin, like strawberries, grapes, plums and peaches.

Currantly, in supermarkets and other self-service outlets, this produce tends to be packed in punnets, bags, or fibre trays with a hard plastic shell lid, to provide a given weight or quantity which cannot then be handled by shoppers. Harder fruit like apples, and fruit with skin which is peeled off before being eaten [like oranges and bananas], is sold in both packed and loose form.Looking at the way in which people pick over the apples to select their choice I feel that some protection is required and that selling soft fruit loose on open display would be wrong.

Packaging gives the opportunity to label the produce to show its origin and its display or use by date. I feel that the packaging reduces waste and stock losses and, so far as I am aware, is all recyclable except the thin film that covers a punnet or the polythene bag that encloses the plums or grapes. In the environmental balance, packaging might actually be the best solution. There could, of course, have been substantial spoilage, waste and losses at the packing plant so the overall waste problem has not been resolved but that also is capable of reprocessing.

Food safety and hygiene considerations also arise and on balance I am grapeful for the protection that is provided by packaging.

For an alternative type of shop we can go to the street market and buy fruit from a stall where the greengrocer selects what we will have and transfers it by hand from the transport box, tray or crate into a paper bag which then goes into a shopping bag and hopefully survives the journey home.

Because of the relentless development of the supermarkets in the UK, unlike on the continent where many towns and cities have open markets with lots of sole traders, the vast bulk of our population [and I am not referring to the obesity problem here] do not have access to any other source of fruit and vegetables than supermarkets or chain shops where pre-packaging is the norm. A massive reversal of shopping practices is needed if we are to return to the days of unpackaged fruit.

The fundamental problem is we generate far too much throw-away plastic waste. If course it has its advantages, but I’d suggest these are far outweighed by the damage these materials do to the planet.

We never had such packaging and we all survived. Our habits may need to change.

Cellophane is a friendly material I believe and can be made impermeable to gas. Why should this not be used instead of plastic film and polythene bags?

These discussions always lead me to reflect on the perfection of the eggshell in both form and function as the protection of a delicate and fragile content. If we could only replicate that in transparent form we might be getting somewhere. Are we looking in the wrong direction?

I suggest that we need to look more towards natural materials for packaging unless the synthetic alternatives offer a more sustainable and environmentally satisfactory alternative.

It’s worth looking at why manufacturers have moved towards using the single-use plastics that have been causing increasing problems for the past few decades. These are cheap and strong and most are safe in contact with food. There were concerns about with earlier types of cling film in contact with fatty food and gradual release of BPA from polycarbonate, but we are better able to understand the risks. What we may think of as cellophane and biodegradable is probably not. Here is a non-technical explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Abhp0oFjrVk

Is anyone game for introducing legislation to ban certain kinds of packaging when a better alternative exists? One example would be to move away from eggs sold in plastic packaging and go back to the cardboard egg boxes that have been used for years.

I was not aware that eggs were sold in plastic packaging. The only ones we get come in soft cardboard boxes of six. Perhaps my eyes are programmed not to notice things we would not have. The boxes seem to be quite strong and are clearly adequate for stacking. A similar packaging might be suitable for all manner of other products – including soft fruit. The egg boxes are probably made from low grade [and previously recycled] paper and cardboard waste which is another advantage.

Single-use plastic eggs boxes have been around for a while, John. They can be transparent plastic or foam plastic. I’m not sure which companies use them but like bottled water and single-use plastic bags they are on my ‘Don’t Buy’ list. I have assumed the same about the source of material for traditional eggs boxes and hope they are not virgin paper with grey colour added. 🙁

There seems to be absolutely no good reason to continue using plastic for egg boxes and this should be stopped as a matter of urgency since good alternatives are immediately available. I think this is something Which? should initiate on behalf of us all by writing to all the retailers. We could help by naming the shops concerned.

Our eggs come in green boxes so obviously some dyeing of the pulp is carried out. Is that really necessary? I suppose so if it provides a suitable background for the printed information and avoids the need to stick a label on the box.

It may be that plastic packaging offers better protection (foam plastic) or helps promote sales (no need to open the packet to inspect the integrity of each egg). It would be easy to explore and assess these benefits, but if we are to tackle plastic waste then going back to traditional packaging seems the right way to go.

If writing to retailers had little effect, would you support a ban on use of plastics for packaging eggs or any other products, John?

Yes, I certainly would. Wherever there is a suitable alternative it should be used. I, and no doubt many others, avoid buying things wrapped in unnecessary plastic but that does not send a strong enough signal to manufacturers and retailers.

In the olden days the eggs were on a large tray in the shop and were given to us in a paper bag. We didn’t break them on the walk home. (as John says, natural egg packaging is well-engineered).

I cannot see any alternative way forward if we are going to make real progress. Egg boxes seem easy but meat and soft fruit are more of a challenge since the life can be significantly extended by modern packaging methods.

I’m not sure that eggs are as well engineered as they are cracked up to be and my nomination for good natural design is the banana. Some supermarkets still put them in plastic bags. 🙁

Many people use the butchers and green grocers (where they exist), or the market, for meat and soft fruit – sold without excess packaging We all used to live this way. Many supermarkets have counters for fresh meat, fish, pastries, deli, fruit and veg that is passed to you with minimal packaging. Convenience packaging is not essential – far from it.

Plastic trays and film are a cheap way to contain products within a protective atmosphere to give them a longer shelf and fridge life. But, I suggest, that is not the only way; aluminium containers and organic film may do the same job. The drive needs to be to get the retailers to work with their suppliers to look at alternative packaging materials where packaging is essential.

“Egg boxes seem easy”“. Of course, sell eggs from open trays and take your card egg box with you to refill. So why do we still have pre-packed eggs? Because we talk, but don’t act. Little steps can cover long distances if we keep moving.

I have seen people opening egg boxes to check the contents and sometimes swapping eggs from one box to another. I have never found a cracked egg in a cardboard egg box nor an egg that I didn’t like the look of.

M&S (well mine, anyway) check the contents of egg boxes at the till as a routine.

I would feel happier if the egg boxes were taken back to the retailer and they refilled them mechanically instead of having customers fiddling about selecting the contents. There would need to be an omelette pan handy.

Malcolm – True cellophane is not recyclable and its manufacture uses a carbon disulphide, a toxic and volatile solvent. I do not know to what extent it is still used. What is often referred to as cellophane film may contain polypropylene or polylactic acid. It would be interesting to know how much true cellophane is used in packaging but only the manufacturers will know.

Would you support manufacturers being told that they must use (or avoid) particular materials for packaging, based on our current state of knowledge of their suitability and environmental impact of disposal?

What I am looking for is first,as big a reduction in unnecessary packaging as possible; where required, there are alternatives such as customer containers. Second, where packaging is essential I’d like to see it made from truly re-usable materials such as aluminium, glass, or ones that will not damage the environment when discarded such as organic materials. Energy to recycle the materials can be replaced; we can’t recover stuff that is contaminating the oceans and the ground.

I accept that this may add a little cost to some vulnerable items, through packaging prices, and a little change in habits to keep ourselves supplied with fresh food. But if we really are concerned to stop damaging the planet and its life then we must surely be prepared to bite the bullet.

At the moment we seem to be doing nothing, as a consumer group, except talk about it. That’s a good way to avoid action. There are changes we could make straight away, if only we made the effort. How bad must it get before we act?

The action we should take, therefore, is to press for a reduction in packaging and to prohibit the use of materials that will cause environmental damage when discarded. Recycling plastics, for example, is generally a short term process as they degrade and can only be used in inferior form or in unnecessary applications before, once again, being chucked in the waste stream (or ocean).

I have not used it but if enough people complain the previous design may be restored. I don’t like the way the left sidebar jumps around.

I have already let them know what I think of it.

Ocado has gone back to the old version, but probably not for long unfortunately. 😞

At least you have tried, but why would they go back to the previous version and change again – apart from the common desire for change, whatever the consequences?

It might have just been a trial run to gauge customer reactions. They have replied that my comments have been passed on to the relevant team as they will want to know their customers thoughts on the changes made.

If I could produce a picture I would give you a coconut, Alfa.

You need to add emojis to your browser John. 🥥

John – I suggest you bookmark this page if you might feel the need for the odd emoji: https://emojipedia.org

Thank you both for your suggestions, but no thanks – I can access emoji’s if I really want them but I don’t like using them [although I have done so occasionally in the past].

I don’t think I have ever bookmarked anything either – I am lazy so I write and do 99% of everything from memory and rarely look anything up.