Why we must act now to save our food standards

Chlorine washing is one of the terms used to describe one of several possibilities for disinfecting poultry, John. (Chlorine is actually a toxic gas and was used as a weapon during the World Wars.) As a chemistry graduate I dislike popular terminology but we seem to be stuck with that. I do object to the term chlorinate, which is going too far.

Chlorine washing has rightly (in my opinion) received bad press but other chemicals such as per acetic acid can be used to compensate for poor hygiene practices.

Then let’s call it what it is if it comes here: disinfectant cleansing. That might not be good for sales, but it would warn the public that hygiene standards were not good and had to be compensated for by a chemical process.

Presumably the gas is wafted around the chickens in the processing plant, or they go through a chamber containing the gas under some pressure. Whichever, people won’t like the sound of it and that could ruin the import market.

I would be very happy with that, John, but it might cause further confusion.

One of the treatments used is a dilute solution of chlorine dioxide, but there are other alternatives and I doubt that processors will say which one they use.

I very much doubt that chlorine gas is used. The operators would need to wear gas masks.

Yes, one of the worst effects of chlorine is the irritation it causes even before inhalation. People took cover or ran away when it was experimented with in the First World War so it was replaced by phosgene.

Malcolm – I was simply explaining that ‘chlorine washing’ is scientifically incorrect but probably the best we can do in the circumstances.

I cannot think of a single good reason to support a process that is essential only because production standards for poultry are deficient. If describing it accurately puts people off, that might help the campaign.

There are dangers from the treatment of chickens by chemical cleansing and they have been clearly stated. If the broiler chickens are to be disinfected at the processing plant then there is less incentive to make sure they are reared to the highest standards of hygiene, health, and public safety. If the chemical treatment is not comprehensive and fully effective there is a risk of serious illness arising.

Many people do not like the taste of their drinking water and believe that is because of the chlorine treatment. They could also have an aversion to chicken if they think the flavour will be affected by chlorine washing.

I don’t know if chlorine washing, disinfectant cleansing or chemical cleansing or whatever we call it affects the taste. After the treatment, most of the disinfectant should be removed by washin.

It might depend on the individual. The taste of drinking water does not concern me but on the other hand I detest the sulphites used in production of white wines, though others seem happy.

I agree. However we must be careful not to put our home chicken industry on an undeserved pedestal. 2 Sisters is our biggest chicken processor but has a chequered hygiene history. To protect consumers we need a better policing system.

The other main processor, the Faccenda Group, has had problems too. Between them they handle most of the chicken sold in the UK. My understanding is that animal husbandry is not that good either, because of the push for lower prices.

The Food Standards Agency started publishing campylobacter figures for supermarket chicken a few years ago, then it delegated testing to the companies and now it is not even publishing quarterly figures. We must not offend business. Improvements have been made, suggesting that further advances could be made if pressure remained. In the meantime, the advice remains that raw chicken should not be washed for reasons of safety.

You can tell in any supermarket how important chicken is in our diet. Whole aisles are stacked to the tops of the chiller cabinets with chicken in various forms and as the major constituent in most ready meals, especially including Chinese, Indian and other oriental dishes. It also comes in many canned and packet foodstuffs from soups to meat pies. Such prominence should command the highest standards of husbandry and hygiene.

The major supermarkets generally perform well and have invested heavily to safeguard the product because its potential for reputational damage is immense. But they are all reliant on a handful of processing plants that have managed to secure a dominant position in the supply chain. This puts the retailers one step removed from the producers
who supply the processors and it seems that improvements are required on both sides.

Much of this chicken comes from abroad and outside the EU, I believe. I wonder just how well good hygiene and husbandry rules are observed in practice, and who monitors them.

We need more people trained to do regular random inspections and to apply penalties for infractions, to improve further the integrity of our food.

I’d like to see a national movement to buy UK grown produce.

Many of us already do buy food from the UK whenever possible. Sadly some people can only afford the cheapest, so no choice there. There are many people who could afford UK food prices but just want to save money. They are the ones that need to be persuaded to choose the more sustainable option and support UK industries. I wonder how we do that.

More inspections can be done if the companies are prepared to fund them unless we expect the government is prepared to pay. Are we prepared to pay higher taxes to do this and sort out the potholes, etc. I think we should.

Producing chicken meat requires, essentially, food and housing and, I imagine, little labour? Why can we not produce home-grown chicken at a price that will compete with the threatened USA version, for example. Is it the price of feed? We are a good cereal producer so should we not encourage more farmland devoted to cereal production?

I’d be interested to have someone knowledgable, with no agenda, to explain just how the UK could produce more of its own food at sensible prices. Perhaps our departure from the EU might be a factor that will help?

It’s all down to economics. Each year (this one will be an exception) Eastern European workers arrive to work on UK farms because this costs less than employing our own citizens. This article is rather emotive but I don’t doubt what it says about cheap foreign labour: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/sep/28/blood-sweat-deceit-west-midlands-poultry-plant

This article deals with the low cost labour used in a processing plant, not in the production of the birds. Given that low cost (minimum wage?) labour is used – as in other industries and services – it doesn’t address the issue of why US chicken would be more competitive.

I’m just looking for the reasons as to why the UK might not be up to this.

I’m not sure where we will get the information but if, as has frequently been suggested, chlorine washing is used to compensate for lower standards, these are presumably used to reduce production costs. I remember when chicken was regarded as something of a treat and now it is cheap meat.

As I said elsewhere, Wavechange – I think the government is rolling the pitch in preparation for a deal that many of us will not like. Luckily, we live in an age where accurate information is easily accessible and government moves to stifle discussion will be pointless.

I hope not, John. What concerns me is the amount of misinformation.

.. And wasn’t Brexit supposed to be about taking back control?

I also remember claims that leaving Europe would give us more control. I think that largely related to dropping some of the silly requirements of EU regulations that added cost without value to our way of life. Unfortunately, I think that philosophy got converted in favour of using our new-found control to lower standards in order to increase market share for UK exports by undercutting EU production. If that is a fair deduction, I cannot agree with it. Wherever possible we should align ourselves with the higher standards of Europe but find ways of adding value that would justify the higher cost [and – possibly – lower profit level but making the goods more appealing to a world market..

After Brexit, I feel it would be in our economic and commercial interests – and improve our international status – to steer a course that gave us a reputation for the best quality, safety and value at a fair price rather than as a dumping ground for inferior American food produce. Initially the price of American foodstuffs will be competitive, and appear cheap, but that price will be used as a pile-driver to force down the cost of UK production until it is unsustainable and our producers go out of business.

The unspoken reason why the UK is not self-sufficient in food is that we have become over-populated relative to our natural resources and productivity levels.

Hey Wavechange and all,

Yes, the point about consumer choice and labelling is really important. The US’s own negotiating objectives with the UK desire the removal of “unjustified commercial requirements (including unjustified labelling) that affects new technologies.”

And recent US trade negotiations with other countries have suggested they’re very adamant on this point.

I think I’ve shared this here before, but Adam and I built this ‘Trade Deals’ site to give greater insight into Which?’s work in the area: https://campaigns.which.co.uk/trade-deals/

There’s a longer piece by Sue on there, giving further analysis on what the deal could mean, labelling etc. – there’s a link to it in the Food section: ‘Latest: UK’s food safety regime under threat in US talks >’

Oscar

Thanks Oscar. I have printed the January 2020 policy paper for later reading.

Unfortunately the document accessed via the link is not really suitable for printing and keeping.

Thanks Oscar – I have been following food issues, particularly those related disinfection of chicken as an alternative to better standards.

It is very sad that food safety is in the hands of politicians and not just those in the UK.

https://capx.co/the-mail-on-sundays-campaign-against-us-food-imports-is-a-new-low/
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/antibiotic-use-in-livestock
https://globalvisionuk.com/5-ways-of-defending-british-farm-standards-in-trade-negotiations/
If Which readers are concerned about food standards they may like to read the following that don’t rely on hysteria. How many of the millions of British visitors to the US have suffered food poisoning as opposed to those visiting Europe? British lamb is still banned in the USA
PS I will never eat another sandwich bought from M&S

https://capx.co/the-mail-on-sundays-campaign-against-us-food-imports-is-a-new-low/
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/antibiotic-use-in-livestock
https://globalvisionuk.com/5-ways-of-defending-british-farm-standards-in-trade-negotiations/
If Which readers are concerned about food standards they may like to read the following that don’t rely on hysteria. How many of the millions of British visitors to the US have suffered food poisoning as opposed to those visiting Europe?
PS I will never eat another sandwich bought from M&S

John – The policy paper is a simple pdf that can be saved or printed: https://campaigns.which.co.uk/trade-deals/wp-content/uploads/sites/31/2020/01/5e2f163d92b97-Trade-deals-v4-2.pdf  

Yes, Wavechange – As I said, I printed the January 2020 policy paper with no difficulty, but it was the graphic-laden colour-rich Trade Deals overview that came up immediately on opening the link that was unsuitable [although the print preview showed it in feint greyscale, it was so full of click-on captions and expandable boxes that it was clearly not designed for anything other than screen viewing so I didn’t proceed to print]. A quick read was sufficient.

Perth42 – Thanks for the list of articles which I shall read later.

I expect Which? to present the essential facts and information objectively and without hysteria, but I am not competent to judge whether that is the case on this issue and reading more and more literature is not helping.

As I have already said, I am biased against the chemical washing of chicken meat because, in such a competitive and price-sensitive industry, I think it could lead to shortcuts in animal husbandry and welfare, and in food preparation.

Overall, if our agriculture were structured better in relation to home demand I don’t think we should need to import chicken meat from anywhere else. I am hoping our total release from the strings that bind us to the EU will enable us to achieve this without having to worry any more about the CAP, subsidies, or infringing other states’ quotas.

Sorry John. My mistake.

Thanks Beryl. I read these articles recently. It’s worth remembering that the Soil Association promote organic farming. I’m certainly thinking about buying more organic food but am concerned that we could not produce enough to meet our needs and of course it is more expensive for various reasons.

It’s well established that chemical disinfection using chlorine washes and other treatments is effective in reducing the numbers of bacteria on chicken but it only reduces the number. One of the problems with disinfection is that the chemical used may not be able to reach the bacteria, either because they are inside a bit of dirt or protected by a fold in the skin.

It is a pity a lot of data is a little old and, apparently, the methodology used to collect data differs in different countries. Comparisons are difficult. This BBC report – a year old – says that US salmonella infections are 6 times higher in the UK (per head of population) but that campylobacter was 50% higher in the UK.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47440562
Many will not care about this enough to alter their buying habits. If, for some illogical reason, we will not be able to put the USA as the source of imported food then the least I want is to see UK marked on homegrown food, including in prepared food and in restaurants. I hope we have a cleaned-up act of production and inspection to underpin that.
Incidentally, we already buy (EU approved) chlorine washed salad stuff in the UK.

We certainly do use chlorine washes for bagged salad. It’s not really practical to wash lettuce thoroughly before bagging it, as it would not keep. Perhaps the easy answer is to make our own salad.

The current concerns could raise awareness of the benefits of home-produced food. Alfa gave us an example of a cauliflower that was marked UK/France.

Rather than dissect the minutiae of chemical cleansing/disinfection, my view is that there would remain a risk to public health and a threat to proper rearing and preparation of the chickens for market so we should not even entertain the notion. For that reason I feel it would be better to insist on a total ban on such processes with no compromises, no dilution of the policy, and no hostages to fortune.

We know that the cooking of chicken in some commercial establishments is not fail-safe [and probably never will be everywhere] so we might as well ensure that the meat has a fighting chance of being safe in the first instance by not allowing a process that could allow the farm hygiene standards to be weakened. Once chemically-washed imports are permitted similar processes will be introduced here but there is no guarantee that UK chicken producers would achieve the same standards as American producers. Of course, they could be superior . . . in which case why change?

I thought you had previously suggested that we could have disinfected chicken as an alternative as long as it was labelled, John. Good husbandry and processing does help and so does disinfectant washing. Perhaps what we should push for is the opportunity to make our own decisions about how food is produced and sold in the UK, irrespective of what the US wants. It could be a grand opportunity to support our own farmers.

Do we really need to import Danish bacon and New Zealand lamb?

Yes, that was my position and I still generally – but with some reluctance – support that for home cooking and consumption, but I have recently become more worried about commercial chicken products, take-aways and restaurant meals where I suspect the information will not be readily provided and where the trade agreement might indeed proscribe it.

Knowing the way things get promoted I can imagine labels and information notices saying “all our chicken meat has been specially cleansed for your safety and convenience”; it would come over as a plus point.

In essence we can make all our own decisions in future on how our food is produced – but if we want tariff-free or reduced-tariff access to the American market for UK production then we will have to concede something that suits their exporters.

Danish bacon is possibly better than home-produced bacon – fewer antibiotics to start with.

New Zealand lamb is nearly as good as Welsh lamb. I don’t know whether the UK has the right conditions to be self-sufficient in lamb. Mutton, perhaps.

I really don’t know how all this will work out, John. My interests lie in the safety and science involved in our food supply and I cannot offer useful comment about trade deals.

As far as I know antibiotics were phased out as growth promoters in the EU long ago but they can still be used for treating sick animals. I hope this is what happens in practice. It would be interesting to know how self-sufficient we could be in lamb and other products.

According to Shefalee Loth’s article in the July edition of Which? Magazine, “current EU rules on the restrictions of antibiotics in farming are set to be strengthened on 20 January 2022 and routine antibiotic use on groups of animals will be banned. This upcoming EU ban is already in place in Denmark, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, and the Netherlands, where antibiotic use has dropped significantly. Denmark and the Netherlands use around half the antibiotics per pig as in the UK.“

I wonder why antibiotics were ever used as growth promoters in farming. Scientists had been warning of the dangers of this practice for years before it was banned in the EU. Their use was banned in the EU in 2006 and in the US in 2017. Many other countries still allow the practice. It’s always encouraging when some countries take a lead in tackling problems.

Here is an article from a US perspective: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/13/chlorinated-chicken-poultry-threat-to-us-uk-trade-deal-post-brexit.html It’s good to see that Which? gets a mention.

There is some information about US approved disinfectant treatments: “…the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) has approved several antimicrobial rinses in poultry processing, including chlorine dioxide, acidified sodium chlorite, trisodium phosphate and peroxyacids.”

This article exemplifies the US lack of. understanding of the UK’s general reluctance and reservations in all things pertaining to change.

Caution, whether politically or economically oriented is an ingrained attribute of the British psyche. We saw this during parliamentary heated Brexit debates in The Commons and more recently in the daily COVID-19 bulletins and the reluctance to acknowledge the importance of face coverings to prevent the spread of the virus.

Negotiations between the US and the UK need to focus on the need for regular UK inspections at the places where the chickens are reared and not rely upon media speculative hearsay to establish the facts about whether conditions over there are any different to here.

Scientists on both sides of ‘the pond’ need to examine their consciences as well as pooling their experience and acquired knowledge to establish the ethics and safety of the chemicals used to clean the chickens and the hormones fed to them to increase the yield of their meat.

The alternative seems to rest upon the resumption of negotiations with the EU. After all, they stand to lose their largest importer of chickens when we finally exit the EU in December.

I was not endorsing what it says, Beryl. It was interesting to see Which? getting a mention.

For the sake of balance, I wonder what the US think of some of the articles in our press, which are not always well informed.

It would indeed be good if we all had a good idea of what goes on in poultry processing.

I’d like to see more facts presented and less emotive statements so we can have a reasoned debate. It seems the issue is less about the wash itself used in the final processing, which is said to pose no threat to our health, as that it can “remedy” poorer husbandry. We, in the UK, are not necessarily squeaky clean in husbandry and processing.

As above and in the CNBC report it seems the UK has much better salmonella record but poorer campylobacter than the USA. I believe from some reports that salmonella is very substantially reduced by freezing. If we import from the USA will not the chicken be frozen?

If we do choose to import chicken from the USA then I see no reason why that should affect the EU providing the chicken we export to them is not chlorine (or other) washed. Unless “principled“ politics is invoked ( if such a concept were to exist).

BlueSkySeas makes a good point about intensive farms, at least in my view. There are plenty of emotive videos about poultry farming and processing but it would be helpful if we could all have an insight into how our food is produced.

More social distancing would be a start.

Yes, but I think I used that joke.

Thanks for the reminder, Alfa. I was aware of the petition but want to use a different email address in case I receive spam. I once contacted an MP (not local) about his campaign and that resulted in a lot of junk mail.

🙂 I also used an email address usually reserved for prospective junk mail.

Now signed. 🙂

It seems inevitable that food production has to be highly efficient to satisfy the needs in our densely populated island at competitive prices. Otherwise farmers would go out of business against cheap imports.

If we regard meat as essential then whatever the conditions it is indeed a factory – an animal is raised purely for slaughter. About two thirds (in area) of our agricultural holdings are grassland so best suited to animals. Maybe we can accept that large enterprises are essential for economy but we could legislate for, and police, more humane conditions?

Perhaps our exit from the EU will give us more scope to improve conditions, if we so choose.

A problem we have is the inflated price of agricultural land. I would have thought it would be linked directly to its ability to produce acceptable profits from farming, but it seems more like a speculators market and its ability to attract subsidies. Perhaps if we could remove rich people’s subsidies and designate land as for agricultural use only we might end up with a better farming economy?

Alfa – It would do no harm to keep pushing for information about where our food comes from. I’m sure many of us do prefer to buy food from the UK and if we are given the information, from named local farms.

I am not aware that the chemical treatments used for disinfecting meat are harmful and for me the real issue is the mass production methods used to give us cheap meat.

Malcolm – It would be interesting to explore what you say in your last sentence, though maybe this Convo is not the best place.

I think the availability of agricultural and horticultural land and its cost is an essential component in assessing the economics of UK food production, and impacts directly upon whether we can, for example, provide better stock density and the cost of the product. Without a viable UK food industry we would rely even more on imports from far away places over which we can have little direct control of standards.

Sadly we would not manage to produce enough food (or in some cases afford it) if we adopted organic farming but there has got to be a compromise between these ideals and current practices, certainly in chicken. production. The current debate about farming practices might help to encourage more people to take an interest in their food and where it is. produced.

One way to move forward is to raise awareness of the importance of producing and buying UK and even local food, and obviously that needs produce to be labelled.

This is as good a way as any to react, should we reach a deal with the USA. Providing the USA doesn’t take Waitrose to court for restrictive behaviour 🙁

I would expect M&S to take the same tack.

Unless food is proven to be dangerous to health I believe information on origin and treatment gives those who worry about such things the choice, at least when buying food for home cooking.

That point about possible legal action was made in the comments following the BBC article.

One of the aims of those who wanted to leave Europe was to gain more control of our own country and before we even get there our food standards are threatened.

That’s the sad irony of the situation. People didn’t realise [or weren’t told by the leaders of the Leave campaign, nor warned by the leaders of the Remain campaign] that the price of unshackling ourselves from the EU – in which we had some influence – would be domination by America in order to replace the market we lose on the continent.

Be that as it may, we still need to establish whether there is a real risk to food safety and animal welfare from the consumption of chemically disinfected chicken in restaurants, pubs, and canteens etc, and from the inclusion of such meat in ready meals and pre-prepared foods. We need to know the true scale of the risks and the extent to which they can be mitigated by control measures, and other procedures in the UK market. I am biased against chlorine-washed chicken but the argument must be made on a reasoned and scientific basis free of prejudice. I feel that Which? has got close to that position but a better evidential case is required.

If first division retailers [in terms of food safety credentials] like Waitrose and M&S won’t sell it, the next rank [Tesco, Sainsbury, Morrison, Asda, Coop, Aldi, Lidl, etc] might be uneasy about offering it. If the market is too small it won’t be worth the cost of importing it. American production will depend on a high volume market and the production cost margin might not be as attractive as we think.

For UK agriculture to win this argument it must make sure that home-produced chicken is guaranteed to be as squeaky clean as it can possibly be and, as Malcolm has pointed out, our recent record does not cover us in glory.

I fancy a couple of boiled eggs.

The EU has used legal action (or threat of) against the UK effectively ensuring we toe the line (my impression). They now want us to submit to the European court of Justice when we leave, overriding out own justice system, for particular matters. I do not want us to be subjugated in that way.

Incidentally, French farmers get 2.5 times the subsidy our farmers get. A level playing field is what the EU say we should subscribe to. It seems like that level playing field is being produced with a steamroller.

This is where Which is contributing to what amounts to fake news.

With only 10% of chickens in US being ‘disinfected’, they are not going to make the journey here.

Beef in US is in fact not packed with hormones.

It would be most useful if we could have a comment from Which? in response to this information from BlueSkySeas.

I admit that even if there were no questions over American food production methods I would still be opposed to a trade deal that prohibited any control over imported food that we are capable of producing in the UK. If that is protectionism, then so be it.

I believe it is in the national interest that we protect our farmers and growers from unnecessary competition. There is not much point in providing substantial subsidies and reliefs that also have beneficial affects on the environment, our wildlife and our landscape if the value of such a policy is lost to foreign imports. By contrast, the value to the USA of access to the UK food market for American meat is but a cotton bud in the overall scheme of things. We buy plenty of American agricultural products – fruit, vegetables, grain, seed oils, tobacco, liquor, and others because we cannot be self-sufficient in those products or meet market demands; the less we procure from America the better bargaining position we shall be in with the EU and Commonwealth countries where we have a much stronger interest in developing our own export trades and partnerships through mutual reciprocal arrangements.

Hi BlueSkySeas – I believe that the article you are referring to is here: https://www.brexit-watch.org/is-which-a-consumer-watchdog-or-fearmonger-for-vested-interests-you-decide

I don’t know much about poultry farming and processing in the US and the UK, but I am disappointed by UK standards to the extent that I have been avoiding chicken for a few years. I’m a scientist, so I understand that ‘chlorinated chicken’ is a rather loose term for disinfection and as you have pointed out, peracetic acid is often used as a disinfectant.

Catherine McBride is an economist. Looking through the authors of brexit.watch.org I found one who had a first degree in zoology, but that’s it.

I am not disputing her claims (although the comment about peracetic acid betrays a lack of understanding) but feel that they need to be supported by good scientific evidence.

I don’t believe it’s the chlorine washing process per se that the EU finds unacceptable; it seems to be far more the fact that suppliers will tend to towards less hygienic farming practices generally, if they know the final product will be sanitised.

It’s also worth bearing in mind that it was this government who, in May this year, pushed through a vote against amendments to the agriculture bill which would have maintained standards as they currently are.

This debate has highlighted a need to examine our own animal husbandry conscience.

What is animal welfare?
Freedom from thirst, hunger and malnutrition
Freedom from discomfort and exposure
Freedom from pain, injury and disease
Freedom from fear and distress
Freedom to express normal behaviour

http://www.parliament.uk – Livestock Super Farms
http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com – The Rise of the “Megafarm” – How British Meat is Made (Published in partnership with The Guardian.)
http://www.theguardian.com – Revealed: Industrial-Scale Beef Farming Comes to the UK

John8:7 King John Version – Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

Ian – I am disappointed that, on this issue, ‘government, he speak with forked tongue’.

At the top of this Conversation I pointed out the comments the DEFRA Secretary made to the NFU conference in February [https://conversation.which.co.uk/food-drink/save-our-food-standards-campaign/#comment-1600403].

He remains in place, but No. 10 is working around him rather than through him and there is a general state of confusion about policy.

Indeed, wavechange that is the article I plagiarised.

I would imagine Catherine McBride has done her research and took advice from industry specialists.

Which should provide a full response to all points raised, because if they cannot demonstrate the facts provided by Catherine McBride in her article are bunkum, then Which needs to stop spending subscribers monies on advertising for this campaign and rethink?

At the moment I am certainly not convinced that Which’s campaign is in consumers interests or Which subscribers.

US National Chicken Council says only 10% of the processing plants in the US actually use chlorine washes.

This 10 % of chickens are the least likely to make their way across to the UK, with no demand here.

Our intensive chicken factories here in the UK and the EU are little or no better than the US.

I agree. I’d like to see Which concentrate on getting our own house in order by campaigning for better conditions and far better labelling to indicate good animal husbandry.

Incentives to do so for producers.

When we have “campaigns” I want to see a proper exposition of the relevant facts. A balanced presentation so I can make up my own mind. I don’t respond well to emotive and partial cases that try to lead me in a particular direction.

Earlier I suggested that it seemed most likely that if we did import chicken from the US it would be frozen, a process that I believe would much reduce such things as salmonella and campylobacter.

We do not have a squeaky clean animal husbandry industry in this country, nor in Europe, so we need to keep a proper perspective on this. However, if we want cheap food that does come with penalties, such as Beryl’s worry about A4 chicken space.

Hello again BlueSkySeas – Actually you did not plagiarise Catherine’s article because you acknowledged the source and identified the date. Plagiarism is unacknowledged copying. 🙂

You would imagine that CM has done her research and taken advice from industry specialists. If I you were trying to find out facts rather than opinions, might there be better ways than relying on those who have a vested interest? I would prefer that Which? pays attention to independent people with established expertise in the subject, as far as this is possible.

What we can agree on is that there is a need for improvements in animal husbandry and welfare and I would add improvements in the processing industry, which has been criticised in the past. In the UK, chicken was a bit of a treat back fifty years ago and now it is cheap, thanks to mass production.

On sustainability grounds, why should we be transporting chicken from the US to the UK when we can produce our own? We cannot yet grown bananas (but give global warming time) but there is a lot to be said for being self-sufficient in our food supply.

Wavechange, it is quite feasible that the perceived intension is to export chicken reared in the UK that has not been chlorine washed to the EU to comply with their strict requirements at a more lucrative return than we would expect to pay for chlorine washed chickens imported from the US. In the great economic scheme of things, chicken is perceived as nothing more than just another commodity.

I would be interested to learn the reason that necessitates just 10% of chickens being chlorine washed. Are these chickens reared in less hygienic conditions than the remaining 80%?

These are questions the FSA need to address before any trade agreements are finalised.

Thanks for pointing out what should have been obvious, Beryl. Of course transporting animals can be very stressful.

Unless things have changed I believe that it is Germany that is most opposed to chlorine washing and other means of disinfection in the EU.

Interesting point.

Dead ones don’t count Wavechange, assuming they are slaughtered and prepared here.

Indeed, but live chicken commands a higher price. It’s not a subject that I know about but here are some figures: https://www.statista.com/statistics/513432/live-poultry-export-united-kingdom-uk-value/

wavechange – Indeed, we need independent research rather than campaign jargon from vested interests on any side.

We’re never going to be self-sufficient in our food supply, too many people and too small an area, although we could do better than we do now. Countries that have a surplus in self-sufficiency tend to be large with relatively small populations e.g. Argentina, Uruguay, Australia, Ukraine, NZ, Canada……..

We are better than the lowest in food self-sufficiency such as Norway, Belgium, Haiti, Somalia, Dominican Republic, Zimbabwe, Armenia, Netherlands…….

We are pretty good at poultry about 75% self-sufficient apparently (Farmers Weekly) but they say unlikely to be fully self-sufficient in poultry but there could be significant growth.

Comes down to whether you believe the consumer should have limited choice and therefore shortfalls and higher prices without meaning better practices in animal husbandry as many more mega-farms will have to be built here in the UK –

– Or whether you are willing to continue to import as we do presently to meet demand, our being the 2nd largest importer of fresh chicken in the world after Germany, primarily from just EU sources or expand imports from the US providing lower costs to consumers & more choice, as we are the 6th biggest importer of frozen chicken in the world after China, Saudi Arabia, Japan, Hong Kong & UAE.

I am not able to offer much informed comment here BlueSkySeas. As I have said I’m keen that we should be self-sufficient in food production, at least as far as is practical. We have well established practices that have generally provided us with safe meat, though I have my doubts about poultry husbandry and processing as I’ve mentioned before. I cannot provide any useful comment on whether UK or US methods are better because I have no access to reliable information. If we must import chicken then perhaps the best option is to import it from EU countries that share our present standards.

I’d rather discuss the science because that is where I have some knowledge.

Fair enough wavechange.

Thanks BlueSkySeas. In the UK we have often been told that UK food standards are better than in the US. I am aware that as consumers we have no way of knowing for sure, certainly not in the case of chicken. Further down this page I provided a link to an old video showing a single example of US chicken farming, maybe not typical and certainly not recent. For the sake of balance, here is a link to a video showing concern for what can happen in the UK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=yD4kpLiA2Qo&feature=emb_logo This dates from when there was concern about the 280k reported cases of campylobacter food poisoning. I was particularly upset because a neighbour and friend nearly died of a rare complication of severe campylobacter food poisoning. Comparing problems in growing chicken in the US and processing in the UK is not a very useful comparison but I believe it serves to illustrate that neither country is ‘squeaky clean’, as Malcolm put it.

I spoke to a local large-scale chicken farmer nearly three years ago and was very impressed by how much he knew about the problems in the industry. It would have been interesting to to see his operation with my own eyes.

Thanks for this, Sue. It’s very difficult to find detailed and unbiased information about food standards in the US and UK. I remain concerned that the pressure to improve UK standards for chicken farming and processing has been eased after all the publicity five or six years ago.

Thanks very much, Sue, for concisely setting out Which’s position [which I support]. I echo Wavechange’s comments on raising standards in poultry production and feel that should extend to all UK meat production. Such progress will not be advanced by allowing imports of food produced to lower standards than practiced in the UK and I would also hope that, as our standards improve further, the bar on imports will be raised accordingly so as not to undermine our animal health and welfare and our food hygiene standards.

It would be much appreciated if we could have a report back as soon as there is any news on progress with the government on this issue because the policy is far from clear at this moment.

10% of chickens in US that are chlorine-washed, it reduces salmonella rates to 2% in US chickens that are treated.

The EU (inc UK) has a 15-20% rate of salmonella in chickens.

We are indeed as guilty as the US, EU and elsewhere of having closed environments in mega-type farming.

I have paid more attention to chicken processing than rearing but here is an article with an upsetting video: https://www.foodwhistleblower.org/blowing-the-whistle-on-big-chicken-the-inside-story-video/

This may not be typical of what happens in the US or in the UK, and standards may have improved, but as Beryl says the birds don’t have much space.

BlurSkySeas, do you know the reason why only 10% of US chickens are chlorinated?

No response….. Is it because these particular chickens are destined to cross over to the other side of ‘The Pond?’

UK consumers today are becoming a lot more curious and selective about the origins of the food they eat and are entitled to know the circumstances relating to the conditions upon which that food is reared and processed, before it is presented for sale in all retail food outlets.

It is not enough to ask consumers to protest against a new assignment or enterprise by casting their votes until a full open enquiry has been made, and essentially in cases where their health could be put in jeopardy.

This debate has certainly unearthed a few causes for concern about UK factory mega-farming practices and also questions about where it is heading in the future.

Yes, as previously mentioned.

With the 10% of chicken producers who use a chlorinated solution in the US, the salmonella rates in chicken are 2%

The EU/UK rates of salmonella in chicken are 15-20%

No. I have explained above, twice.

As this has been happening for some time in the 10% of US chicken producers, it seems unlikely they are keeping these chickens to ship them across the pond once the trade deal is signed. They are for US existing markets.

Particularly when outlets here in the UK say they won’t sell them. So there are no concerns for UK citizens, as they will have a choice of the 90% of US chickens that are ‘not’ produced using chlorinated chickens.

I am also hoping this becomes a trend that by its own momentum neutralises a bad trade deal.

Mind you, there are certain popular food stores where the lead set by Aldi and others will not be followed if the imported foodstuff turns out to be cheaper.

Many of the sources already being used by Aldi in the EU will not be any better than the US.

If people buy intensively farmed meat whether in the UK, EU or US it will be much the same way produced.

I’d agree with Malcolm R, ref buying animal welfare focussed meat where we can.

I’d like Which to focus on this and educating people as well as putting pressure on supermarkets to widely promote organic/free-range/LEAF Marque/RSPCA Assured/outdoor reared and outdoor bred/Red Tractor Etc

To explain the differences and for the better practises perhaps subsidising farmers who provide better animal welfare produce, by retailers and perhaps the government.

This should be the campaign.

BlueSkySeas – ‘Chlorinated’ chicken (there are various chemicals used) is not the only way of disinfection used in the US. One of the other disinfectants used is peracetic acid, as mentioned in the article by Catherine McBride. There is no point in just looking at the percentage of carcasses that have been ‘chlorinated’.

I’m all for improvement in standards in animal husbandry but no-one seems to be pushing for higher standards in chicken processing.

I believe the UK is around 75% self sufficient in chicken meat. The potential is to increase that. We currently make up the extra by importing, some from the EU including Poland, some from the Far East – Thailand I think. I wonder just what their standards are like and how much supervision and checking we do on hygiene and husbandry? And I wonder just how much chicken we might import from the US.

The reference to chemical washing is correct, as I have explained above. Chlorine treatment is only one of the methods of disinfection in use.

As our Government are using Brexit to make us leave the EU single market and customs union, under the aegis of taking back control of our borders, I think we should be aiming for import controls on food.

In particular, I do not want to see cheap goods from foreign factory farms undercutting the safety and welfare standards that we expect UK farms to use.

So far Which? seem to have referred to chlorine-washed chicken- although in this intro they describe it as “chlorinated” chicken, which could imply the meat contained chlorine.

Of course the term “chemically washed” is technically correct. I’ve probably just done that to myself in the shower. That was not the point I was making. Using a term “chemically” is, I believe, likely to raise an emotive rather than a rational response.

The marketing profession choose words that are designed to produce positive responses in potential customers; what they say is not untrue but it presents a partial, one sided view lacking in balance. I do not want to be presented with an approach like that from Which? However, it is an approach that is designed to lead many people to support a particular stance.

Once again I am probably on my own in expecting, or even wanting, balanced reporting.

What about reporting on US husbandry, that in Poland and Thailand, and practices in the UK production and processing industries?