Does it pay to be polite?

I’m wondering if a UK café could get away with charging people different prices, as mentioned in your introduction, Lauren.

In a coffee shop I say “Please can I have ….” whereas in a pub I would ask for “A pint of …., please”. In both cases, I thank the whoever serves me. I have noticed that younger people often say “Can I get …..”. I wonder if our café owner would want to charge them more.

I wish drivers would be more considerate to pedestrians and would slow down and stop when the Amber signal appears at a crossing point. So many accelerate instead. I discussed this with a friend once and it revealed that he didn’t know what the different signals meant. I explained that Amber meant Stop [if it is safe to do so], whereas Red only means Don’t Go. The days when the red lights had the word STOP on them are long gone. If I step out into the road as soon as I see the Amber signal, the approaching driver often looks as though he or she would be most impolite and might also give a gesture which is not listed under the ‘nice’ category. At least the driver has an accelerator and can make up the lost time – the poor old pedestrian can’t.

That’s an excellent point, Malcolm. Politeness in driving is a very important aspect of the process, and is frequently lacking, along with thoughtfulness, intelligence, awareness, ability…

Duncan, I was with you every step of the way, until the final sentence 😯 But you have a wonderful way of accepting immediately when you’ve made an error. Many won’t do that. Keep up the good work 🙂

Thank you for the kind words Ian , as regards the last sentence i think I have spent a good part of my life in the company of the wrong people, its a revelation to meet such genuine , decent people here on Which, it has opened my eyes that there are good people in this life as well as bad.

I hope one day, Duncan, you will see things the other way round – that there are plenty of good people around with just the odd bad person. Which? Conversation seems to remain quite uncontaminated by unpleasant influences. The occasional bad egg comes in and looks around but their malign psyche can’t survive more than a few days in the tolerant and agreeable atmosphere that prevails here; it disturbs their metabolism and they go away. Yet some points of view have been put forward quite vehemently over the years. I particularly remember the Conversation about safety helmets for young cyclists that drew out strong opinions on both sides but it was generally conducted with politeness and courtesy. We all get angry at times and need a vent for our feelings.

Far more good than bad, duncan. Why then do we allow those who run our countries to murder civilians in so-called wars? I don’t know how we motivate the preponderance of ordinary decent people to stop this sort of legalised aggression. The same reason, I suppose, people can’t be bothered to vote with their feet in everyday life. Or is it they need an organisation to band them together into a force for change for the better? But maybe then we’d get people running that organisation who had other agenda as well, and self interest, like most of our politicians. Life is a ****, isn’t it 🙂

duncan, “old age” in my book is over 90. Over 50s are the new middle age. More mature people have the benefit of experience, have seen the outcomes of different situations and are capable of giving good advice to those who are younger – and sometimes arrogant. I don’t think generalisations work in this context. Impoliteness, arrogance, rudeness seem to pervade all age groups and are, I suspect, more to do with inherent character than the aging process. However, one thing that might increase with age is a little less tolerance of silliness, and a little more impatience. Less perceived time perhaps to wait and to make things happen?

I just couldnt understand why you quoted Dexter Palmer in reference to old age in a negative fashion without balancing it up with a quote about young people in the same spirit. It looked too one-sided , I dont think I grow old gracefully ,in the sense you mean Beryl , I still have a fiery spirit and am still a rebel at heart and refuse to accept the world as it is just now with all the wars and millions of deaths –all for money . Beryl I would NEVER plagiarize anybody unless it is quoting from a website , I would personally feel it is not me thats writing and I was using somebody else , I am too distinct a person for that, nobody on other websites has any dubiety as to the author of my postings–me ! The day I lose my intellect is the day I remove myself from Internet posting. Yes you see change in young people signifying the world changes , but does it change for the better ? Now the real news is suppressed we are told to live in a near Disney world of make believe –“everything is all right ” yet it only takes you to look out of your window on the world to see the truth , and it aint nice Beryl , I refuse to live in a make believe world when all the western governments know the truth but hide it from you by censoring the media and they are doing a grand job. We certainly progress both mentally and spiritually, as a believer in reincarnation its a continuing cycle , the problem is when I return I will be back in the stone age with an animal skin and a club as thats all i will return to. Greed conquers all.

I admit to being similarly confused, Beryl. And the weighty phrase “He who allows his ego to dominate and block the path to his true self is only half alive.” sounds almost biblical in tenor.

Arrogance is an interesting concept; mainly, because it doesn’t really exist per se as an independent characteristic but is only defined into existence by those who, all too often, don’t like what someone else is saying. “Arrogant” is typically defined as ‘having an inflated or unrealistic opinion of one’s own abilities’ and therein lies the rub. How can the observer make an accurate assessment of an individual’s abilities? In short, unless they are very familiar with the individual in question and have studied their output, both written and spoken, and know the individual’s experience, education and qualifications then using ‘Arrogant’ as a label simply reveals more about the labeller than the labelled. 🙂

The other danger about using words like ‘Arrogant’ and ‘Arrogance’ lies in their dismissive connotation. By mentally labelling someone as ‘Arrogant’ it allows the person making that assessment to routinely disregard what the other is saying, simply because they feel it’s of no value, and can, in those circumstances, be indicative of a closed mind.

History is littered with examples of those who dismissed what enormously gifted members of the human race tried to say and were ignored, persecuted or even killed, simply because what they were saying didn’t comply with the mindsets and expectations of the listeners. Jesus Christ and Galileo spring immediately to mind, but there were many others.

Duncan, as long as you don’t come back as Fred Flintstone 🙂
Did you ever watch the ‘grumpy old men” and later the “grumpy old women” serious on TV and were you able to appreciate the humour? I have met quite a few real life ones in my time, some of them still very immature but have learned to respect their views. Who was it that said there is no growth without stretch marks?

There are also a great many natural disasters that frequently take place in this world that humans are not directly responsible for and an equal number of good Samaritans who risk their own lives in an effort to save the injured and who comfort the relatives of the deceased. People who are unable to actively partake can and do contribute money, without which any rescue efforts could not take place.

I confess to knowing very little about engines and telecommunications except they are a vital necessity to everyone’s life today, and how frustrated I feel when they breakdown. My main interest however is in people, both young and old, who are also known to physically and mentally breakdown from time to time. Your role in life was evidently meant to ensure the continuity of communication between the human species is maintained which, according to some of your comments, undoubtedly comes with many drawbacks.

Meantime a little gesture of appreciation can help to brighten someone’s day whether it be a handshake, a nod of the head or even a bow as the Japanese engage in, or maybe just a simple smile or a please or thank you can make all the difference in a world full of worry and stress.

You have met grumpy people (usually old ) Beryl and you correlate that with me in some way ? but again you have got it wrong . I have said from the beginning on Which I am a very sociable person , smiling in company, lifting peoples spirits , even when I went to parties and you could cut the atmosphere with a knife I was the one whom would break it by getting people to talk to one another . In public I am an extra -extrovert , while shy as a child I am the opposite now and engage many strangers in conversation , looking out to help people ,if I can. I dont naturally go round with a grimace- hating the world , although if the occasion merits it I can be reserved . While I have suffered depression in the past I give out a positive attitude as I have a burning, unquenchable desire , in spirit to help this world and its inhabitants and I have been given the ability to cut through all the bull and see the truth in practical down to earth terms . This means I speak out at what I see , NOT at what I surmise , if people want to stick their heads in the sand because of social/economic /political preference , so be it but that isnt me I live for reality and its a painful life both physically and mentally and to me philosophically

Duncan I don’t understand why I am unable to make a generalised point about a topic without it being taken personally. I have not made any accusations to or about any one person in particular and have even attempted to introduce a little humour into a topic about manners.

Reality is painful I agree and different people have developed their own coping mechanisms in order to deal with some of the realities of life, ranging from complete denial of a situation to the opposite extreme of becoming all too aware. The solution is finding your own balance between the two.

In this particular forum there are moderators to intervene when things get out of hand. I do welcome this and do try to adhere to the guidelines as they assist in maintaining a sensible and constructive debate relating to everyday events concerning the general public as a whole.

Beryl If I make a point on a public website I am entirely open to a rebuttal , and , as you know many have “rebutted ” me . To me thats entirely fair but to imply that answering a post intelligently constitutes a breach of the rules is to potentially reduce the freedom and openness of constructive debate. There are plenty of countries where you cant debate anything –check out Saudi Arabia – jailed – whipped- tortured etc and thats just one country.

That’s a very interesting comment. It poses the question as to whether a sufficiently significant political force can change the mores of society to directly affect normal social intercourse.

Should we be judging those who achieve high office, with all the power and authority that goes with it, by the same standards as we judge everyone else? They are driven to bring about a change in society, and when there is a change of party in government there is a tendency to demonstrate a diametrically opposed way forward. Margaret Thatcher was following James Callaghan. It is not surprising that her manner [if not her manners] seemed distinctly, and to many quite alarmingly, different. It got the better of her in the end, of course, and she suffered the ultimate disgrace of being kicked out of office by her own close associates many of whom – in their desire to seem as ‘dry’ as she was – had also, unfortunately, picked up some of the more arrogant aspects of her own behaviour. Her subsequent conduct from the back benches and the House of Lords showed that by now she was incapable of reining in her haughty and self-righteous attitude since she had become pathologically arrogant. How her long-suffering husband Dennis put up with it is one of life’s mysteries, but then he was on a whisky prescription for much of his time indoors I believe.

You could apply this same principle to broadcast interviews. Whilst politicians can witter on I feel very irritated when they are part way through their point and the interviewer then cuts in with a challenge. I really would like to hear what they have to say. The Today programme is a real offender. Impolite? Rude, I rather think.

I agree, Malcolm I’m a keen Radio 4 listener but often turn it off when I hear this behaviour. Debate between politicians can be worse, where two contributors want to air their own views rather than listen to anyone else.

Our Psychologist son tells us that it’s somewhat more complicated than that, but then his research means he rarely sees anything as ‘simple’. But he did say that Eysenck’s ‘four temperament’ concepts have been dismissed by Cattell who argued that it’s necessary to look at a much larger number of traits in order to get a complete picture of someone’s personality.

Whereas Eysenck based his theory based on the responses of hospitalized servicemen, apparently Cattell collected data from a range of people through three different sources of data.

L-data – this is life record data such as school grades, absence from work etc.
Q-data – this was a questionnaire designed to rate an individual’s personality.
T-data – this is data from objective tests designed to ‘tap’ into a personality construct.

Cattell analysed the T-data and Q-data using a mathematical technique called factor analysis to look at which types of behaviour tended to be grouped together in the same people. He identified 16 personality traits / factors common to all people.

Fact is I suspect we label people according to a huge number of factors and it’s pretty tricky to tie anyone down to a specific category.

That last sentence Ian — entirely agree ! Why is it some people feel the need to put others into boxes ? To me that constitutes a lack of mental / social security -ie- they are personally insecure and feel the need to project their insecurity on others to make them both feel more secure socially and justify their beliefs . I have been put into boxes many times only to surprise my mental captors by behaving in their eyes in an unorthodox fashion which they perceive to be “not standard practice ” . I am no drone-robot and have rather complex thinking patterns taking in a vast amount of seemingly unrelated data and making sense out of it and deciding a course of action- strategist maybe ? .

I tend to agree with your point, Duncan, especially your fourth sentence. No use denying it – you’re an enigma 🙂

I hope you meant that as a compliment, Ian.

And, isn’t it time for a rhyme now? I thought you made a promise to give us one every twenty contributions.

He’s not a Freudian, Beryl, so I’m not even sure he accepts the notion of the ego as such. But the level at which he’s working means the papers he produces have titles which themselves appear to be in a foreign language. But his main field of interest currently is Neuroscience, so I’ve noticed a mark shift in his attitude towards Psychologists and what he terms their ‘flim-flam’ over time.

Beautifully put, Sophie 🙂

Yes – It inspired me to post a comment about avoiding waste.

And did it work David or was subtlety “foreign ” to them ?

The elderly Landlord was showing no manners either. Treat otheres as you would want to be treated.

I hope you will be kind enough to mention his name in the Which? Local Traders section – with the caveats. In fact what you have said hear is adequate for me – perhaps though an indicator on the costs would be helpful .

I have absolutely no idea what a franchise is quoting compared to a local independent.

As you are probably not allowed to post his name your rough locality would help : )
I doubt he will ever be the type to pay to be a Which? Trusted Trader or possibly even acceptable to that scheme.

It shows there are still companies in this country that do value loyalty Wavechange . loyalty to me is number 1 , you go through thick and thin in life but a loyal person is like gold ,once proved their value is beyond measure .

Absolutely, but I don’t know any that do home, car or breakdown insurance. I use various printers to produce leaflets, cards, posters and banners and they are great, but they are all small and local. My favourite is a one-man business. For years I have used a small motor engineer that specialises in refurbishing classic cars but is happy to do repairs on ordinary cars and offer advice. His personal service was remembering to return my coat when I turned up the following year for an MOT.

I would love to know of a breakdown recovery company that offered a no-claim discount. The last time I called one out was in 1989, yet I pay the same or more than a new customer who might have a poorly maintained car. Being polite has not worked. 🙁

I can’t imagine that we are the only ones who are keen on loyalty, Duncan. I don’t mind paying a bit more for good service and decent quality.

I have always believed that whatever job you do you should do it to the best of your ability. If you do not your are guaranteeing a poor attitude and a dissatisfaction with your role.

As most of us know sometimes your employer has silly systems, or they do not provide proper training but you have to rise above that so that you can take pride in your work.

It was instructive in France to note in a restaurant in a small village [4000] that the Head Waiter was training four teenagers in the intricacies of the job. And they really were into being the best. Of course it helps that in France being a good waiter is recognised as a proper job not something of a stop-gap.

I have had many roles and I enjoy the customer-facing ones the best as if viewed as a challenge to make people satisfied/happy it provides a reward to oneself when successful.

All sounds very nice Kenneth but if the company you are dealing with are ignorant B,s and ripping you off then I don’t deal with call-centres but put my point bluntly (no swearing ) to those who run the company and I don’t take no for an answer . I got that from a certain fuel supplier and immediately canceled my contract with them , I don’t “muck about ” . If companies were all nice in their dealings with the public then there would be no need for some people to behave that way but if they have been financially ripped off or treated like dirt (PC World/Curry,s etc ) then they have every right to complain loudly and vigorously. What you are complaining about is the old English way of accepting authority has now gone and the American way is being applied , well blame the government for encouraging American methods used by US BB to be applied to UK BB so the public are only “getting up to speed ” with modern methods.

I don’t know the answer to this problem, Kenneth, but I have witnessed aggressive people at customer service desks, etc. In some cases, company policy and employees that are not authorised to make decisions can be part of the problem. Where someone has genuinely tried to be helpful I make a point of thanking them.

Duncan – Currys/PC World don’t get much of my custom but my strategy has been to go back when other staff are on duty, speak to the person in charge and be very polite to them. That does not always work but can catch them off-guard. 🙂

To be blunt Duncan, if people approach issues with that attitude then should they not expect the same reciprocated.

After all, if people treat myself or anyone else like dirt, what do they expect in return? The people taking the grief will roll out the red carpet and to fall over themselves to help?

Or are you saying that it’s okay to be abusive or aggressive to people just because they happen to be employed by a big business? That this is acceptable behaviour in your opinion?

People that behave like that, bluntly, I don’t want as customers, perhaps your fuel company thought the same.

Or you could choose not to deal with large companies which, I will agree to a good extent, are not as good at looking after people as smaller businesses tend to be in the main.

It costs nothing to be nice and mannerly when dealing with issues.

There’s a time and place for getting more forceful I wouldn’t disagree but, I do not think it should be the default position and that it should be both measured and tempered. Just shouting at people rarely accomplishes anything in my experience.

K.

You tend to find that there are systems in place for any number of reasons wavechange.

Much of the time staff are constrained in what they can or cannot do as you can’t judge which have the capacity to deal with a particular issue or would deal with it in a proper manner. There may also be legal implications as well as company policy when dealing with some things or, it may be constrained by the terms of sale, warranty and so forth or any combination of any or all.

Some things get pretty complex to deal with and not all staff can do it, if they even have the knowledge to do so.

Actually I’m failing badly to explain this I think as it can get very complicated as to the reasons and many can be specific to a product, service, warranty, business and more.

I think that often people think that perhaps like they can do, that decisions can be made with impunity on the spot with no checking of anything and sadly, a lot of the time, that won’t be the case.

Even the MD of a company often will find him or herself constrained by policy and more so by legal implications on what they can and cannot do.

K.

I try and be professional and when dealing with companies and other organisations. I make sure that I have all the information likely to be needed to hand before making a call. In return for being polite and professional, I expect the same in return. A little humour can work wonders.

I accept that not all staff will have the necessary knowledge or experience but in that case I don’t think it is unreasonable to be passed on to someone who can help without undue delay.

Yeah it all helps make things go as smoothly as possible and as you and Malcolm say, having a bit of a sense of humour can help everyone just get things done with the minimum of fuss. In the end, that’s all everyone wants.

That issue of “who’s responsible” can be a nightmare, especially in larger organisations. You see the same thing in the public sector as well, it’s just a side effect of bloated systems I think but, probably a necessary one for the most part. Sometimes probably as much to protect “customers” as much as the organisation.

K.

That is also my approach Malcolm. I sometimes try and get a laugh out of them which can lighten the tone somewhat.

It’s a case of who you take your wrath out on – either a person who has clearly let you down, or the manager/director involved in administering the guilt party. Even then, I find the polite but firm but plite and fair approach works best, and keeps my blood pressure contained. Most people, in my experience, do not set out to deliberately cause you problems.

I get it Duncan and I completely understand that some businesses and public organisations can be desperately infuriating to deal with. I’m a consumer too remember so I’ve experienced it as also.

What I do tend to do is try to buy smart in terms of both goods and services and knowing what I know through dealing with a number of companies professionally, BG being one I’m not ashamed or frightened to speak about, I’d never, ever deal with them unless there were no option. Nor would I advise anyone else to either.

What I would say is that my local plumbers, two I deal with, would never allow things to get to that.

But then they won’t offer a rolling maintenance policy with the promise of this that and the other which, as it seems you’ve found out, the marketing and promises don’t always live up to the reality.

Flipside is although I get better service I lose the “big company blanket of security” as it were, if the local guys retire, cease trading or whatever I need to do some legwork myself. But I’d rather that than face what you appear to have.

Or at least on the surface, it may look to be a more expensive option.

A chap in our industry did a study on this sort of thing many years ago and it holds true for many if not most in-home services, local businesses based on feedback and service levels offer what is classed by those in that sort of field class as world class service.

Larger businesses couldn’t even hold a candle near the service levels of small local businesses.

Even looking back on Which? you’ll see in my industry, appliance service, they found exactly the same. The small local companies for maintenance walk all over the big boys on service levels. And are often much cheaper to boot.

And it’s more personable, you can normally talk to someone that actually has a clue and will often go out their way to try to help. No need for shouting or unpleasantness most of the time.

They’re not all perfect, granted and a very small minority might even be no good but the vast bulk are. Reason being that they live and operate in the community that they serve, they’re either good or they don’t survive.

Big national and multi-nationals, in my opinion, rarely care and there’s multiple layers to them which at any point can go wrong.

I don’t look at things as one size fits all as what BG do even in appliance matters, bears little to no relation whatsoever to what most of the rest of the industry is like.

K.

I agree with Malcolm. Polite and unyielding is the best approach and having all the information to hand is also essential. Finally, I try to anticipate what their reactions will be if I have an issue, so I can rehearse a cogent argument beforehand.

I did have an issue with Virgin Trains who managed to combine enthusiastic and helpful with alarming incompetence and lack of English. The last made it hard to deal with them so I was forced, eventually, to contact the MD. Thereafter, it has to be said, the advice was flawless, but in Virgin’s case they operate by a rule book which they don’t reveal to customers, as I eventually discovered.

Kenneth – I have generally had much better experience with smaller companies but, as you say, there is always going to be some uncertainty if they will deliver. For example, I arranged for a tree surgeon to come and remove three trees. He did not turn up and later in the afternoon his wife rang to say that he had been admitted to hospital a few hours earlier. It was at least six weeks later when he turned up with two assistants and they did an excellent job. The delay was unimportant, but I had no heating or my washing machine had been broken I would not have been happy.

Whether we choose a large or small company, I think we are entitled for work to be done proficiently and in a timely fashion. In the case of my tree surgeon, I did think about getting someone else in but I’m glad I waited and I now recommend the guy to friends.

At the time, Duncan related the saga of his heating system. It had a faulty pressure accumulator (a part that commonly fails) and to replace it, apparently the boiler had to be removed from the wall. That does not seem very good design to me.

I am glad somebody does Kenneth , I seem to be an ogre in some peoples books but let me say – I always start off polite and well mannered , so much so my wife gets onto me about it to be “more of a man ” but what happens is most people think I am a “pushover ” and then dont take me seriously or treat me less than others this is because THEY have a personality problem not me .When I am treated with disdain the other side of me comes out I explode . For those feeling sorry for the call centre employees , when i complained NICELY to a lady there she was all sweetness and light -of coarse we will do something about it I will personally take your details and find out what is happening and CALL you back and take your phone number -she NEVER did after a week – nobody but nobody gets away with lying to me , people who have done that to me I have cut out of my life , I have enough person problems to deal with without that. I told British Gas their employee lied , it turns out they will say anything to stop people complaining , just look at the posts on other Covo,s to that effect. I am paying good money for a service from a massive company if that company doesn’t comply with that service I have every legal + monetary right to complain loudly this is a multi $Million company and if anybody thinks I should be nice to it after terrible treatment – well you wont get me to apologise-feel sorry for a big business -no way. .

I hold little sympathy for the larger businesses Duncan, I think many of them have lost a sense of what their function actually is to a degree. In large part I understand why and it’s complex and too long winded to get into here but suffice to say that it’s not always that things are done in the interests of their customers.

Which is why I think many people hold a very negative view of businesses in the round.

Personally I don’t view things as a spreadsheet and bonus driven world, for me it’s all about people. Sure any business has to cover it’s cost and to use what is often seemingly regarded as a swear word, make a profit. But that does not mean you have gouge your customers to do that, it has to be fair to everyone. Or at least, that’s my take and I hope you’d find many business owners held the same view.

So not all businesses are out to “do over” customers by a long chalk nor deliberately offer a poor service, that’d be commercial suicide for most.

But it seems to me at times that a lot of people seem to think that is the case and go at things from that perspective straight out the traps or, think they’ve got to fight from the get go.

When really, much of the time a bit of courtesy and respect would yield a far better and probably faster result as the person at the other end will want to help you, not be forced to.

All most people on phones et all want is an easy life, they just want to get the job done as best they can with as little hassle as possible for both them and their customer and everybody being reasonable and pleasant makes that a lot easier to achieve.

K.

One of the problems with “companies that treat us badly” is that such companies don’t believe they are doing so; they are incapable of accepting any faults on their part. Nevertheless, I still think one has to take that on board and speak to them decently and treat them as you would wish to be treated. At the end of the day we need their help and they can make our lives . . . very difficult.

Personally, I wish we could do things by correspondence or face-to-face rather than over the telephone, but there is no time for that nowadays and some situations, like Duncan’s, are very urgent and require a much more understanding response as well as some continuity of follow-up. Firms could take a lot of heat out of the atmosphere if they looked at themselves, and the way they respond, more critically and from the customer’s perspective.

That’s one reason I get on well with small companies and keep going back. Good old fashioned loyalty on both sides. Over the past nine months I have made various attempts to register an extended warranty with a well known company that seems well respected. Part of the problem is that they have a fast turnover of staff in customer service, according to the last person I spoke to. From what Kenneth has said, perhaps that’s not surprising.