How many chickens really contain campylobacter?

It is the food industry’s responsibility to produce safe food and follow the relevant regulations, so I’m not sure if incentives are appropriate. Fines might be treated as a business expense and used as a reason to increase prices. Naming and shaming the worst offenders might be the best approach. I understand that the government intended to publish information that compared the supermarkets but that does not seem to have happened.

This rather unpleasant video was published recently: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/23/-sp-revealed-dirty-secret-uk-poultry-industry-chicken-campylobacter

wavechanger, the “incentives” I had in mind were banning the distribution of chicken from offending companies.
The EU should spend money monitoring producers, slaughterers and distributors (including retailers) – and ensure, as far as possible, only safe chicken is sold. Fines are a waste of time. Loss of business is one sanction, but there should be criminal sanctions against individuals responsible for knowingly evading measures deisigned to maintain public health.
Naming and shaming – we have short memories, and probably care little. How many still shop at stores selling horsemeat?

Malcolm – Hmm. I think the use of the word ‘incentive’ did not convey what you had in mind, but I think we can agree that some form of penalty is needed.

You choose your retailers carefully and I avoid budget meat and other foods. That’s great but everyone deserves safe food. I agree that the EU has an important role in this and other safety issues, and I wish that they would not tinker with trivial matters that generate so much poor publicity by the press. I think you are right that action needs to be taken against individuals who knowingly evade safety measures. Here fines would have an effect, as would banning them from working in the food industry.

I would like to know how the campylobacter problem has changed over the years. When I was young, chicken was regarded as a treat rather than cheap meat. Now we are told that we should not wash chicken because of the risk to our health, so we pop it in the oven complete with a factory-fresh dressing of filth and faeces. 🙁

In the future it may be possible to overcome the problem by vaccinating chickens but in the meantime there is a lot that could be done to clean up the processing of poultry.

wavechange, I was picking on “incentive” from the introduction “there’s not a huge incentive for food businesses to improve”. My point was there is a huge incentive to save the EU up to EUR2.4 billion – apart from the far more important prevention of illness and deaths. That “incentive” needs to be implemented!

I’ve just recovered from Campylobacter, but as a retired Biomedical Scientist I knew both the symptoms and the origin. I visited my GP, just to have the illness notified, as I waited until I was symptom free before I went. I have always been paranoid about chicken and if I could find someplace that sells polythene gloves, I would wear them when handling chicken. I normally get my chicken from our local reliable butcher, but I think it was a special offer from M&S (3 chicken dishes for £10) that was infected as my partner was not ill.

My ex-husband only worked for a half day in a chicken factory in the 1960s because he was disgusted with the state of the processing plant. I briefly worked in another food factory at the same time and was horrified at the content of meat pies and sausage rolls.

DT, I suspect this post should be in the washing machine conversation? Please reassure me you are not suggesting sticking your chicken in a bleach solution in the washing machine at 60C. although it might well work…..

Actually I looked first of the links about the length of life of campylobacter – and associated nasties.
When I saw the link to clothing etc I could not resist looking at what the NHS says.

I always like to look at the authoritative sources before getting too deep into a discussion! : )

http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/corporate/doc/factsheetcampylobacter.pdf
interestingly though chickens are the most common cause it is only implicated in 20-30% of the outbreaks.

Campylobacter can be associated with raw and undercooked meat other than chicken. Rapid cooking (e.g. barbecue and microwave) is often insufficient to allow the inside of the meat to reach the temperature required to kill campylobacter and other hazardous bacteria.

One of our defences against campylobacter and other microorganisms is the acid (hydrochloric acid) in our stomach. A significant proportion of the public take proton pump inhibitors (e.g. lanzoprazole) to suppress acid production, putting them at higher risk if they eat undercooked meat.

It is well established that undercooked meat presents a considerable risk of food poisoning in this and other countries. On the other hand, there is not much evidence that using washing machines at lower temperature is a serious health issue. The washing and rinsing physically removes a lot to the bacteria etc from fabrics. Obviously nappies have to be disinfected before washing and the same should be done with clothing etc. that has been soiled or used by someone with an infection, and nurses’ uniforms. Unlike liquids and gels, washing powders generally contain bleach so they are better at killing bugs. The NHS advice says that it’s OK to wash at 40ºC with a bleach-based product provided it is not soiled or contaminated. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, I don’t see a problem with that. If used for low temperature washing, a periodic maintenance wash at high temperature is needed to keep washing machines free of contamination by smelly and potentially dangerous bacteria etc.

Our skin is covered with bugs and so are our homes, and human beings in reasonable health have defences that protect us from infection. This works well if we take reasonable precautions such as washing hands after using the toilet, before handling food and if we are in contact with a sick person. What we are sometimes unable to cope with is large numbers of bugs. Microbiologists use the term ‘minimum infective dose’ or ‘infectious dose’ to give an indication of how many bacteria etc. are needed to cause an infection. It’s relatively low for campylobacter.

Wavechange you quote NHS advice for washing at 40C without giving a link.
” The NHS advice says that it’s OK to wash at 40ºC with a bleach-based product provided it is not soiled or contaminated.”
I am concerned that there seem to be two messages and they cannot both be right.

I am bemused as given my less than perfect knowledge where items have been I always assume items such as “towels or cloths used in food preparation” should be washed at the higher temperature of 60C with a bleach based powder. ” If the items you are washing are likely to cause illness (high risk), they should be washed at 60ºC with a bleach-based product.” as the NHS says.
http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/can-clothes-and-towels-spread-germs.aspx

“One of our defences against campylobacter and other micro organisms is the hydrochloric acid in our stomach”

I have recently read that hydrochloric stomach acid depletes with age which may explain why the elderly are more at risk when contracting campylobacter. I have always questioned the logic behind the advice given by an Irish Doctor years ago to feed my then young offsprings with stewed apple for their stomach upsets. I later learned that apples contain hydrochloric acid and found that eating an apple after a heavy meal is the best remedy for indigestion. What I didn’t realise however is the important role it plays in helping to destroy any bacterial invaders contained in the food we eat.

Fascinating stuff from a conversation about chickens!!!

Beryl – As you say, the amount of hydrochloric acid in the stomach declines with age but the elderly are more susceptible to infection for various other reasons. I have no medical expertise but think it would seem sensible to warn those taking proton pump inhibitors (PPIs) to suppress gastric acid production that they are at greater risk of enteric (intestinal) infection. Here’s a review about this. Don’t worry about the detail. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2036.2011.04874.x/pdf

With so many people taking PPIs, I would not be surprised if this is a factor in the frequency of food poisoning caused by Campylobacter and other bacteria. Surprisingly, PPIs are rarely mentioned when food poisoning is discussed.

Apples contain malic acid, which is also found in other fruit. I have never heard of them containing hydrochloric acid. If it is possible to relieve indigestion by eating ordinary foods rather than swallowing pills, that seems like a good idea.

I think we are still on topic. 🙂

Dieseltaylor – I was referring to the NHS page that you provided a link for.

My comments were related to general washing rather than specific items where special treatment is needed. Sorry for not making this clear.

Towels or cloths used in food preparation are listed on this page as ‘high-risk items’ along with soiled clothing etc. and it is suggested that they should be washed at 60ºC with a bleach-based product. I always iron tea towels and it’s not to make them look smart. I’m happy to continue to discuss the problems associated with lower washing temperatures but please can we do this on the appropriate Conversation rather than hijacking one on a serious public health issue. 🙂

Whoops …..Apologies for not making myself clear. Perhaps I should have said that apples can stimulate the production of hydrochloric acid in the stomach. 11.41pm is not the best time of day for me to engage in such complexities. Way past my bedtime!

Beryl – You have me really confused now. Indigestion is caused by gastric acid causing irritation, so I cannot understand how producing more of it will help relieve the discomfort.

Wavechange: There are a number things that cause indigestion which are very complex and which I am not qualified to discuss and in any event may involve going off topic. But suffice to say if gastric juices are somewhat depleted due to the ageing process, common sense tells me that you are going to need more of it in order to assist in the digestive process (and to combat bugs) or the alternative is to eat a very restrictive diet There are a number of foods that can stimulate hydrochloric stomach acid (HCL) and you may be interested to learn that ginger is one of them!!! There is a list that can be found on http://www.foodscout.org/benefits/hydrochloricacid.

Younger people who have sufficient HCL can normally cope unless they habitually overindulge in or eat “bad” foods which would probably set up a need for the stomach to overproduce HCL causing the acid reflux and discomfort most of us are familiar with. I suppose it’s about adjusting to life’s challenges (stresses) and changes as we age and “listening” to what your body is trying to convey to you but I fear we are veering too far from the main topic although very interesting nevertheless.
I would agree PPI’s are not to be recommended for reasons you have already stated.

PPIs are effective drugs that have provided relief from pain and discomfort. I think we need to focus on reducing the risk of Campylobacter and other types of food poisoning.

As far as I am aware, the main risks of Campylobacter are undercooked food or contamination of food that will be eaten raw or has already been cooked. I’m not aware of it being a serious problem where people are working on the production lines where the carcasses are processed. There have got to be ways of cutting down the risk, hopefully to the extent that it is no longer considered hazardous to rinse chicken before cooking it.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that a large proportion of E-coli poisoning comes from vegetables and there was a major outbreak from bean sprouts I believe. So you can’t win !!

Bear in mind that animal waste is used a fertiliser, so it’s a good idea to wash vegetables etc. that are not going to be cooked, even bags of salad that claim to have been washed.

Raw meat should be kept in leakproof containers at the bottom of the fridge to avoid contamination of other food.

Some bacteria produce heat-stable toxins that are dangerous and will not be destroyed by cooking. If there is any suspicion that food has started to ‘go off’, don’t assume that cooking will make it safe to eat.

That’s a really interesting question, Beryl. I don’t know if the meat itself contains significant amounts of bacteria. It’s known that chickens can carry Campylobacter in their intestines without showing any signs of illness and their faeces will be heavily contaminated. Other birds will eat food contaminated by this waste and their feathers will become contaminated too. The process of removing the innards of dead birds will contaminate carcasses of birds that have survived internal contamination during their short lives. The fact that most chickens on sale present a risk of Campylobacter infection shows that there are serious problems in animal husbandry and processing of the birds after they have been killed. Carcasses should be thoroughly cleaned before they are packaged. I wash whole chickens very carefully, just in case I get one covered in filth and faeces.

Freezing cannot be used to kill off bacteria. In fact freezing under suitable conditions is one of the ways that microbiologists use to store stocks of bacteria for decades.

There is a lovely YouTube video showing a farm with chickens running around on green grass under trees, intended to convey confidence in where McDonalds source their eggs. I don’t imagine that many free-range chickens enjoy these conditions.

It is interesting to compare the videos and other information put out by those in the industry and by pressure groups opposed to the activities of certain companies. It’s difficult for those with no involvement to know what is really happening. It had not even occurred to me that free-range birds might have more opportunity to get covered in their own muck.

I’m not a vegetarian either but I don’t eat as much meat as most people and chicken has been off the menu since we started this Convo.