Live event: ask your questions about supermarkets – 2pm 16/7/21

Thanks for your comments, I’m well familiar with section 20 of the 2010 so-called “equality” act, and how it supposedly defines disability as “ANY long term condition which adversely affects a person’s ability to carry out everyday tasks”, but when it comes to enforcing it in my long hard and all too often brutal experience it only ever gets applied to the wheelchair crowd, and for anyone like me it’s all going the wrong way, i.e., gigantic steps BACKWARDS with stupid full length skylights on buses and stupid new trains which are all open all the way through etc. as well as stupid insane shrieking and click routine blasting out every opening minute, and turning it down is no good, it has to go OFF completely, BEFORE I go inside anywhere, which is why we need people like me and their needs to be far more well known and their rights under the act properly enforced. And of course the “equality” act also states that “barriers does not just mean physical barriers” but once again no-one, either public or private, ever wants to know, and neither do the media, either local, regional or national and neither do any of the disability groups or the excuse for an mp in my area who won’t even answer my letters or messages etc. no matter how polite and civilised I try to be. And the “equality” act states that “service providers must anticipate IN ADVANCE what disabled folk will need, NOT wait until it’s too late and they get EXcluded. Well that clause is being openly and arrogantly flouted all the time all over the place by shops and supermarkets and transport operators etc. and if I ever complain no-one ever wants to know, it’s always two FAT fingers, STUFF you JACK! despite all the laws. And with the trains the rail ombudsman couldn’t help, so I turned to transport focus who tried to help but only failed miserably, so it looks like the disability law service is the next and possibly the only option left and I’ll need to try and take the government to court as it’s their responsibility to enforce the act, especially as my local mp has made it clear by her actions, or rather total lack of such that she only cares about the normal successful crowd and their issues. So as you can see there is a whole culture of S-D you jack! when it comes to anyone like me with brutally severe hidden disorders which they were BORN with and can’t help, but there’s always all manner of fuss and publicity about those who CHOOSE to screw up their OWN lives by getting themselves needlessly hooked on drink or drugs or gambling or filthy disgusting porn etc. But no-one will even try and give ME a voice oh no! Not only is no-one raising any awareness anywhere about anyone remotely like me, but instead just about everything is being done to only suppress all such essential awareness which absolutely infuriates me.

The after effects of long term isolation during Covid-19 have caused some people to develop acute hyperacusis.

During long periods of isolation and quietude the brain will adjust accordingly, so that when returning back to normal it will take time for the brain to readjust to the sounds you tuned out to before. It can cause anxiety, apprehension and fear in people who have been affected by it. I know someone who is suffering from this at the moment, and there’s no immediate remedy to help them overcome it. Shutting yourself away will only prolong the problem, and the only recommendation is to try to gradually reintroduce quieter sounds back a little at a time, giving the brain time to readjust.

Thanks for your thoughts, but unfortunately the way I feel doesn’t make any difference whatsoever, because I have several brutal torturing disorders forced on me which I have absolutely no control over and none of them are treatable with any man-made treatments, so emotions don’t make any difference at all, I could be feeling fine and then go into a supermarket only to find myself under sustained brutal attack and be instantly enraged. What needs to change is the appalling two-faced double standards where there is all manner of respect for the white stick and wheelchair users and anyone similar but then only a total U-turn of attitude when it comes to anyone remotely like me, they’re just seen as an easy target for all manner of appalling abuse and the various vendors and service providers etc. are just the same, they all know they mustn’t DARE exclude anyone with a wheelchair, or a walking frame or crutches etc. as there’ll be outrage all over the mass media just like there was against northern rail when they excluded a woman on a scooter at blackpool, but they also know that no-one gives a STUFF about anyone like me so they think they can just casually urinate all over the law and gluttonously FAT-gloat and sneer etc. as far too many do. It’s just like the yobs in school who treat so many staff with outrageous contempt and come out with stuff like “come on, make me”, etc. And it’s no good complaining to the operators as there’s far too many of them, this problem is the government’s responsibility, I don’t know why they bother bringing out all these new laws and then take such a totally blase attitude and just casually shirk their duty. And we’ve now had at LEAST 26 YEARS of anti-discrimination laws here in England and yet we’ve still got this appalling situation. And by the way I don’t suffer with hyperacusis, that is something very different, but no doubt just as dreadful. What I have is selective, and I know there are lots of others out there who also have major problems with places like supermarkets as I’ve chatted to them when I was on facebook a few years back. Some disorders absolutely RUIN entire lives and it’s always those who absolutely least need it who are made to suffer the most and are EXcluded the most, but the media just keep painting a totally false picture of disability by only showing those who have such rip-roaring joyride lives while completely ignoring anyone like me which only breeds further discrimination.

My Ocado delivery this week was missing all the frozen food I ordered, and the local village store freezers were all empty, which leaves me wondering are people returning to hoarding again or are supplies dwindling? I was under the impression that now we have retained ownership of our own fishing grounds, fish would become more plentiful and cheaper. Is it all being exported, and if so who are its new beneficiaries?

I agree John, there are even special offers on bread flour again.

Beryl, since M&S took over from Waitrose there have been consistent shortages in many products especially ready meals that I get for my parents. We used to have the choice of multiple branded or own-brand products but many branded products have been replaced by M&S products and they can’t keep up with the demand.

I feel impelled to comment on the Ocado situation but realise it is not the function of this particular Conversation to have this sort of discussion here – there are other relevant Conversations aplenty . . . except I cannot readily find one [because there are no specific links at the end of the Intro], and even if I could my thoughts would be disconnected from the preceding contributions.

It seems to me that the Ocado/M&S tie-up should have been a marriage made in heaven: a grocery delivery company lacking the ballast of a network of stores with warehouses, and a popular high-quality retailer with an extensive retail infrastructure but lacking a home delivery operation.

Ocado needed to push out from under Waitrose’s apron and their strangling over-specification of details. M&S had tight floorspaces and store layouts with limited facilities, a narrow range of product lines, and few car parks, all combining to prevent a complete weekly shop. So how on earth did it all go wrong?

Was it the website? Was it the pricing? Was it the logistics? – Perhaps they just couldn’t get it together on the day to the scale required to make the impact necessary to capture the market they needed for success.

Without the volume they wouldn’t get the discounts or the priority from suppliers, and sustaining the M&S quality standard seemed especially difficult, the more so as the market became more competitive and margins had to be cut. Perhaps the main lesson is that neither Ocado nor M&S are grocers by trade and tradition whereas they are up against some of the most experienced and well-invested grocers in the world who also have demonstrated a massive amount of agility in responding to changes in shopping behaviour and demands. An epidemic cropping up during the changeover certainly didn’t help.

M&S are good at creating new product ideas and stimulating demand for upmarket foodstuffs and seasonal foods, but they dislike having to organise all the little things or odds and ends that everyone wants from time to time but all the time. Ocado are a stockholding and delivery operation used to having Waitrose dictate the supplies and handle their procurement. Waitrose are good on availability of the more unusual and obscure lines that the Waitrose shopper wants, and the Waitrose shopper doesn’t want to have to go out to Iceland or Savers for the remainder of their shopping list – nor pay a higher price for them either. With Waitrose absent, Ocado was left struggling and with their new partner not really up to speed from day one.

It could all work out alright in the long run, but the market is highly competitive and also rather volatile at present with major expansion by the “German discounters” [Aldi and Lidl] who are rapidly becoming the housewives’ favourites and are belatedly experimenting with home deliveries. There are also uncertainties over the future direction of Morrisons. The squeeze will be on the Co-operative stores, and on Farm Foods and Iceland and similar outlets — although they seem to have a niche position. The “pound stores” are still in the game even though they are now experiencing problems with their chosen price points and have a narrow range, and also under pressure, the corner stores, the shops of last resort but clinging on due to their convenience. And then there’s Amazon coming up on the rails with a particular metropolitan appeal.

What I like about looking at retail is that it doesn’t stand still for long, and whereas I can say what’s happened I can’t say what’s going to happen next.

Where has it all gone wrong? Greed on the part of M&S and ignoring Ocado customers.

M&S promised to price-match Waitrose but put the prices up 5% after a month. They have got rid of many branded products and replaced them with M&S products that are too often inferior according to the reviews, and far too often out-of-stock.

I am cancelling one of my orders (2 households) and getting a Waitrose delivery next week. Ocado no longer stock my branded body wash, but Waitrose do.

I can now get deliveries from every supermarket except Iceland, so by no longer stocking my favourite brands, Ocado are now losing my business as I am buying them elsewhere along with a weekly shop.

I didn’t actually buy that many Waitrose products but they were available when required and fitted nicely alongside the rest of the offerings. Now we are forced into buying M&S as they have got rid of alternatives and I really resent that. I don’t exactly cut my nose to spite my face, but I won’t buy M&S if alternatives that are acceptable to me are available because they have ruined my favourite food supplier.

I was not happy with Ocado for another reason. I registered for home delivery before the first lockdown but they never let me place an order with them until months later. Thankfully three other supermarkets were more helpful and have seen my continued custom.

I’m glad you have voted with your feet and explored other supermarkets, Alfa.

If I remember correctly they did not have the resources to take on new customers so just looked after their existing ones. If so, seems the right thing to do until their resources increased. Existing customers would have been miffed if newcomers had taken their slots.

We all have to eat. Other supermarkets did well at accommodating the increased demand in various ways.

They were the ones to use, perhaps. Loyalty to existing customers is sometimes mentioned here. Perhaps that was what they were doing. It works both ways. They also lost their Andover warehouse in a fire.

Other companies made compromises to meet demand, even though this meant a more restricted service for existing customers.

I’m thankful to Alfa who pointed me in the direction of a flower retailer that temporarily supplied fruit & veg when it was difficult to book supermarket online orders. It’s amazing how many companies have done their best under very difficult circumstances.

I tried to help by opting for click & collect services to free-up delivery vehicles and staff for those who did not drive. In an ’emergency’ it’s helpful if everyone does their bit.

Would you have been happy as a long standing customer to have lost your delivery slot to someone who had never patronised Ocado? I am not clear what compromise Ocado should have made, particularly when they were already compromised with the loss if a warehouse.
I, too, as an outsider tried Ocado but there were no slots available. I shared family deliveries for a short while and soon sorted out my shopping. I held nothing against Ocado.
Anyway, it is in the past now.

It was touch and go for a while last year as even though I paid for Ocado Smart Pass, we were not a priority and had no access to food deliveries for a while. When I did get a weekly slot, I shared it with my parents so food had to last 2 weeks and they were introduced to new ways of eating. In the middle of July, we were able to have a weekly delivery each that made life a lot easier.

Since M&S have been involved with Ocado, my feelings towards them as a company have changed. I would go in their food hall once in a while and pick up some fresh fruit and veg as it was always good quality but the rest of their offerings were not usually suitable for a diabetic with a dairy allergy plus I thought them expensive for what you got. I rarely get that good quality M&S fresh fruit and veg now from Ocado and they seem to have created a whole range of cheap and inferior stuff for home deliveries.

When M&S joined Ocado, every Waitrose product in my favourites was replaced by an equivalent M&S product that stated the last time I bought it that was ridiculous and annoying when it was prior to their joining date. What they have now done is remove the date last bought if you remove the item from your favourites. Ocado keep adding products to favourites they think you might like and mine had over 1400 items in it making it basically unusable. I had to cut it down, so now you don’t know whether you bought an item before or not meaning you can’t find something you buy rarely and want to buy again, or you might have removed it because you didn’t like it only to buy it again without realising and it makes shopping for 2 households a whole lot harder. I have requested the dates be put back but they have ignored my request.

M&S was always expensive, but now their products undercut branded products either by price or a slightly larger size for the same money that no doubt justifies their removal. Most weeks I fill in the product request form to have products returned to sale. Others must do the same as Baxter’s soup and Marriage’s flour is on sale again.

I don’t buy that much in the way of M&S clothes, usually just underwear, t-shirts and leggings, but for a long time I have wondered why women’s clothes are never the same size. I usually have to buy the size I think I am plus a size smaller and a size larger. Even then, sometimes they are too small or too large. Is it just about shifting stock and hoping half of it doesn’t make it’s way back? If so, that is not exactly eco-friendly. It is also not fair to the customer when they issue a gift card instead of a refund as they sometimes do.

But since M&S have been involved with Ocado, I just see the negative impact they have created and see them as mercenary and greedy with everything they do for their benefit not for the customer. In the future I see them taking over Ocado completely and what was once a fantastic place to shop with amazing choice will be gone forever.

I hope so. Other supermarkets have extended or introduced click & collect services.

I had also joined Ocado Reserved well before Covid kicked off so I was also miffed when it stopped. My parents now have the weekly slot so they can maintain a routine.

I am also miffed at them putting up the cost of Smart Pass, now £8.99 a month. As I am shopping for 2 households it is acceptable, but not when I go back to one shop a week that is likely to be less in the future as I will have to shop elsewhere.

Most still mineral water (except the expensive ones) has been out of stock for weeks now. I was worried our non-dairy milks would suffer, but as they have very long use-by dates I have always kept a couple of months supply in reserve and Ocado have managed to keep them in stock most of the time.

Having been a very happy customer with them since 2007, my trust in Ocado was partly restored when regular deliveries started up again, but no longer since M&S annihilated them.

Expensive?

It seems that Ocado have suffered another major fire at one of their distribution hubs where product-picking robots went out of control on the grid, collided, and set fire to the warehouse. There will be stock shortages, substitutions and delivery rescheduling.

Did someone, somewhere, refer to the curse of M&S? Ocado have not had a happy start with their new partners [plus the competition feeds the media with bad news at every opportunity].

Three robots collided apparently but they only expect a week off disruption.

This reminds me – I haven’t heard much about driverless cars lately…………

I have just completed an Ocado order, soonest delivery now Friday.

I expect some delivery routes will be more seriously affected than others.

The fire was at Ocado’s enormous Erith facility [in south east London] where, the company claims, the damage is limited to less than 1% of the grid, the fire having been contained by planned fire attenuation measures.

There is a fascinating explanation of how an Ocado customer fulfilment centre [CFC] functions here —
https://www.ocadogroup.com/automated-ocado-customer-fulfilment-centre-explained

The company’s latest [and fifth] CFC will open in Andover in Autumn 2021. It will cover 217,000 square feet and fulfil 60,000 customer orders per week at its full capacity.

With investments on this scale, Ocado are clearly planning to take serious market share from other stores. Tesco are currently the leaders with approximately 27%, Sainsbury’s and ASDA are roughly level pegging on about 15%, while Morrisons comes fourth with around 10%. Then it’s Aldi [8%], The Cooperative [6.2%], Lidl [6%] and Waitrose [5%]. After that come Iceland [2.3%], the symbols and independents, other multiples, and, at the bottom, Ocado with 1.8%. The “symbols” include Costcutter, Landmark, Londis, Nisa, Premier and Spar. [Data from Statista].

It is interesting to look at the change in the market share of these companies over time: https://www.statista.com/statistics/280208/grocery-market-share-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/

The pandemic has certainly increased the demand for shopping online, but most of the major supermarkets have expanded their delivery services. Whereas many people choose where to shop according to what is nearby, delivery services can provide a wider choice.

The schemes used to pay for delivery services help to tie customers to using a single supermarket rather than say using one supermarket this week and another the next.

A really interesting set of comments here, John and a perceptive look at M&S, Waitrose and Occado. I would question whether Aldi and Lidl are as successful as you paint them. I get the impression that they have peaked and their cheap appeal has been countered somewhat by other supermarkets taking them head on. Coop is what it is, and survives because of its slightly larger convenience stores and the ability -just – to supply most of the weekly staples. It also has real estate in sensible places. You are absolutely right about the volatility of the food market. Thankyou for your considered contribution which is much appreciated.

The Statista figures show that Aldi and Lidl that have substantially increased their market share in the past few years, Vynor. They have missed out on the popularity of online shopping during the pandemic.

I am not intending to have home delivery of my normal grocery shopping. I much prefer to browse a store and decide what I need and would like and stick it in my trolley. Hermitage is not for me either.

However, at the beginning of lockdown I was introduced to Cook frozen ready meals and had bought a new Beko freezer for the garage. Initially my family combined our orders but now I keep a stock that I order occasionally online, delivered in an extremely well insulated box with freeze packs. I do think the effective and necessary packaging is a bit wasteful but it is all card or recyclable. And yes, they are a more expensive way of buying food, but I would be unlikely to make such decent coq au vin, beef bourguignon, hoisin duck noodles, pork dijon……… I think beef in brandy tonight, with broad beans and charlotte potatoes fresh from the garden. 🙂

Statista figures are not always right. When examining the toilet roll issue I seem to remember that working their figures gave us each using 7 rolls a day. You do have to look at “statistics” with an enquiring eye.

Perhaps there is a difference between buying and using toilet rolls. Recall what happened at the start of the pandemic. 🙂 Maybe there are other figures.

With no car at the moment I look forward to a ‘free’ delivery from Waitrose this evening rather than using click & collect at a local supermarket.

No, that was not the basis of the data. It was a mistake, since corrected.

“To err is human, but to really foul things up you need a computer.”

Setting aside overall market share, Ocado is now the third largest on-line grocer. Whether that is by value, volume or weekly mileage I do not know.

It has been predicted that Lidl’s market share will probably overtake The Cooperative later this year. Having been in two of Lidl’s newest stores recently I would say they are succeeding very satisfactorily. Maybe some of their earlier stores need a refresh to bring them up to their latest standards.

The big advantage of the major supermarkets is that they can almost provide a one-stop shop with pharmacy, motor fuel, clothing, and some homewares and hardware plus other facilities like recycling bins, cobblers, drycleaners and bureaux de change.

Malcolm – There could well be discrepancies in the Statista figures but there is not much other information to go on.

I’m afraid I desisted from examining the toilet tissue issue so it was good of you to take the trouble and go the extra mile. Again, there is not much to go on.

Aldi and Lidl did not have a local presence until Aldi opened a new supermarket on the other side of town a few years ago. A few months before the first lockdown a very large Lidl store opened and this has proved very popular. It even has a toilet and car charging facilities.

I’m not keen on supporting foreign-owned supermarkets (it’s a pity about Morrisons) but noticed that Lidl is promoting British meat and vegetables and I’ve been told that Aldi does the same.

As John has said there is not much choice of toilet roll statistics. Very little to go on.

You are more likely to foul things up if a ready meal coq au vin is on the menu 🙂

Ocado’s Andover CFC is a replacement for the one on the same site that was destroyed by fire 2 years ago.

Although Ocado might rule online shopping, they have no bricks & mortar stores. I predict in a few years time M&S will take over completely.

There are quite a few videos that show the washing-machine sized robots in action – quite amazing really. Just google ocado cfc video.

Are these ‘live events’ a cop-out? Seems to me that instead of producing and monitoring a convo, they will spend just one hour on it. My question at one minute past 3 on the previous ‘live’ event was ignored.

Thank you, Jon.

I don’t have an advance question for this week, but Em has banked two and there could be others within the comments already posted.

It seems the rules let people more or less return to normal. Those who feel uncomfortable should continue wearing masks and avoiding places where social distancing is lax. My supermarket checkout still has social distancing, although this is not the case when browsing the aisles. Life has to return to near-normal at some point.

@mcalnan, hello Marianne. I usually shop at M&S Simply Food. Trolley and hand sanitizer at the entrance.There are distance markers at the tills. People observe distancing there. There is no distance control in the aisles and I do not see how you ca; easily control this. Shoppers were more careful when the epidemic was seen as more serious – pre vaccinations. Now we seem more relaxed.

A recent visit to Tesco. The sanitisers were empty and I was not aware of any social distancing at the tills, but I may have overlooked it.

When I moved and was no longer near a supermarket I started to buy extra non-perishable goods and keep my cupboards well stocked, taking advantage of price promotions. That proved useful when there were shortages. Even under normal circumstances the price of some goods can vary by a factor of two, so if you have the space, can afford it and are organised enough to use goods in rotation it’s easy to save money and cope with any shortages.

I had hoped that the cycle of high prices one week and low prices the next could have been suspended during the pandemic, but that was not to be.

The cycle of high prices one week and low the next was not something I have encountered where I shop. Just stable prices. However, you were at least able to take advantage of that cycle by “taking advantage of price promotions”.

Many of the price promotions are at the instigation of food manufacturers, hence the price fluctuations.

Some price promotions might be instigated by food manufacturers such as when promoting a new product, but after a few conversations with manufacturers and Ocado, it is the mainly the supermarkets who run them.

You will notice there are usually only 1 or 2 promotions in any given product type and I took part in an Ocado survey a while back where I was asked my opinion on their promotions.

I wrote to one manufacturer and asked what was the point of running a promotion if it was permanently out of stock. They replied and said it wasn’t up to them.

Alfa – I once asked that question of the Sainsbury’s driver and was informed that the totes were steam-cleaned daily [i.e. not between each service]. How diligent this routine is I don’t know.

There certainly are obvious contamination risks but there might not be many serious cases identified. It would be interesting to know whether many have been recorded by the public health services.

Our deliveries are not entirely bagless. All loose [unprotected] produce is enclosed in a one-trip plastic bag — we keep and re-use them because they will no longer take them back for recycling. All cleaning materials are also put in plastic bags as well as, but inconsistently, things that might leak. For everything else we have to inspect and occasionally clean the product before putting it away.

Shopping in person also carried hygiene risks so care is always required. The big disadvantage of a delivery service is that you cannot select your own goods or adjust your order at the time to avoid poorer quality items — in fact, because of anonymity, that is likely what you’ll get.

Surely it’s more economical in terms of bag use if the the things that might leak or spill are put in bags. That’s what our Sainsbury’s delivery people do. They can get a large number of cleaning products in one polythene bag and they usually hand it over separately so it doesn’t get mixed up with food products.

In some ways it’s overkill because cleaning products and other liquid goods are so tightly capped these days and have tamper-proof closures that any spill or leakage is a rarity unless the container itself bursts.

They also tend to put the eggs and other runny things on the top of the crates so they are visible and unlikely to get crushed.

With the best will in the world we are unlikely to eliminate plastic packaging but minimising it is possible and then reusing any whole bags or wrappings.

I understand the environmental concerns but don’t see why all supermarkets can’t accept bags back for recycling like Ocado who also take back other supermarkets bags as well as their own.

I asked the same question of the FCA who replied that is unlikely that you can catch coronavirus from food (I didn’t mention the virus at all so they didn’t read my email properly). They also informed me local authorities perform inspections and enforce food law.

I do think customers should be given a choice especially when it comes to items like flour in paper packaging.

I was pleased when the supermarkets I used for online orders cut down their use of plastic bags. I was a little surprised to find broccoli loose in a crate with a price label attached but then it occurred to me that the vegetable would have been growing in an environment full of bugs.

Our bodies are capable of protecting us against small numbers of bacteria and in food poisoning our defences are overwhelmed by ingesting large numbers. Babies and young children put their hands and other objects in their mouths and they survive, and this process helps to make them better able to fight disease.

Although it may be unpleasant to think of food in contact with unsanitised surfaces rather that in bags, maybe there is not really a risk.

I had trouble logging into The Lobby again today, and the only way in was through Community and Jon, which took me straight into Live Event, and The Lobby comment ended up in Live Event. It’s an enduring problem that doesn’t go away.

I seem to able to log-in to read comments alright but as soon as I want to post a comment the ‘sign-in/register’ tab comes up and it then takes a few attempts to get back in again. I think this problem has to be the priority for making the site accessible and enabling people to participate with ease at their convenience.