This month on Which? Conversation: April 2022

All the best from me too, George.

You’re welcome George, good to hear you are improving. 🙂

This sounds like a very worthy campaign for Which? Wingman.

Standard contact information that includes phone numbers, email addresses and trading addresses should be on every website.

Standard complaints procedures also need to be in place.

I completely agree Alfa. I’m just surprised that established retailers don’t seem to have grasped the impact their poor Customer Service is having on their customers and how it will affect them moving forward.

I am in no doubt that many consumers will have made a decision never to purchase again from retailers who provided appalling customer service.

Decision makers and Senior staff must surely recognise how they are treating customers and would be equally dissatisfied if they were to receive such poor service, which leaves me perplexed as to why they would think customers should accept this, why they allow it to continue and why they are not implementing change.

I agree with you entirely, Wingman.

I haven’t experienced the problems you have described very often because we tend to make purchases from companies which “demonstrate outstanding customer service”. But reading all the tales told by people reporting to this website alone reveals an appalling level of customer service — not due to the incompetence or poor training of the staff but deliberately, by design, as a matter of policy from the highest level. People are being pushed into forms of communication which are clearly intended to pose a barrier to resolution through delays, frustration, absence of channels appropriate to the issue, and circular transactions.

I don’t know where this trend came from. Was it purely driven by economic necessity? An excess of competition from cheapskate internet traders that has put decent firms on the back foot commercially? Some fancy management doctrine perpetrated by business advisers who are only concerned with the immediate bottom line and not in it for the long haul? It’s ruining the consumer landscape. Unfortunately, customer feedback appears to have little influence.

Perhaps Which? should review and report on fewer products and pay more attention to the service quality of the retailers and service providers, and, dare I say it, actually engage with the retailers and with the trade bodies that represent them. Consumer protection can no longer be siloed in a central London office block with nothing more than an evidential trail of e-mails; people need to get out there, tackle firms on their own turf and shame those which do not cooperate.

There appears to be little compliance with the legislative requirements for contact and communication information on websites; this has become more important than ever because of the enormous transfer of purchasing from physical stores to the internet.

We have laws that offer certain standards of consumer protection and rights but no effective enforcement body to ensure that the treatment of customers’ claims and complaints is fair, decent, and satisfactory. Legal remedies are available but this does not work for most consumers so there is a disinclination to use them and, in any case, the courts are overloaded. Disadvantaged consumers are the least likely to get the resolution or the satisfaction that they deserve so they unfairly experience the most detriment.

John Ward, you have made an excellent synopsis of the situation and in answer to your question ‘where this trend comes from’, I firmly believe it is based solely on reducing costs.

However, in attempting to do so, I believe any cost savings achieved will be cancelled out due to their customer base shrinking, leaving them either exactly where they were or in a worse position.

Updated: 16 Mar 2022 Best and worst shops The best and worst shops in the UK, as voted for by thousands of shoppers

Read more: https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/best-and-worst-shops/article/best-and-worst-shops-aELTV0b6P86n – Which?

Best household appliance shops When you’re buying white goods or a vacuum cleaner, you need to know you’ll get excellent customer service both during the purchase and if something goes wrong.

Read more: https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/best-and-worst-shops/article/best-and-worst-shops-aELTV0b6P86n – Which?

This places Currys as 11th – in the upper half of the rankings – with staff given 4 out of 5 stars for knowledge and helpfulness. That was rated on 718 submissions. This Convo https://conversation.which.co.uk/shopping/currys-pc-world-complaints-faulty-goods/
lists 1024 comments, largely adverse.
Are we talking about the same Currys? Do the stores that are ranked below Currys also refuse to abide by consumer legislation and deny customers their rights? Should Which re-evaluate their opinion of Currys? Or are the complaints as a proportion of sales actually very low because their sales volume is so high?

Interesting and useful survey malcolmr. Pleased to see that Euronics scored quite well, I have always been impressed with their overall service, friendly approach and willingness to be helpful and anyone I know who uses them has been equally happy.

As you indicated, I imagine the number of complaints for Currys are proportionally low due to their high sales volume, but the nature of the complaints are quite shocking and it remains unacceptable.

A couple of years ago I reported that Currys did better than John Lewis on Trustpilot. Most purchases are trouble free. Among the reviews on Trustpilot, it’s easy to see that Currys has given some customers a great deal of hassle.

I was unhappy with Currys because of the way that they pushed customers to contact the manufacturers rather than facing up to their responsibilities. Boycotting the company for years achieved nothing and I restarted using Currys when Comet went bust.

Neither of the Euronics shops in this area are very local but if I can see goods before purchase that puts them ahead of Argos.

Hi Wavechange, I am surprised to hear that Currys outperformed John Lewis, but I guess the level of Customer Service must have been better at that time.

There have been several reports from consumers indicating that Currys advise customers to contact Manufacturers directly when goods required replacing in order to obtain an ‘uplift’ code. Like you, I find this practice unacceptable. If a customer has called a retailer regarding a faulty appliance that needs replacing, the retailer should be taking ownership of the problem, handling the enquiry while the customer is on the phone, with minimal fuss and not expecting the customer to undertake further calls to the Manufacturer in an attempt to resolve the problem.

I think it’s a real shame that consumers are experiencing these kind of issues, which are practices that Currys could easily rectify and no doubt would result in happy customers and greater customer loyalty.

Hi Wingman – Currys used to issue a leaflet with purchases explaining after sales service. This explained that Currys may refer customers to manufacturers, who are better placed to offer support. I have no doubt that this is the case, but customers need to be aware that retailers have a legal responsibility under the Consumer Rights Act and once the manufacturer’s guarantee has expired the CRA offers valuable protection, even though it is not a guarantee. Some of us have repeatedly suggested that retailers should issue leaflets outlining basic consumer rights and include this information on their websites.

I agree that Currys should do more to help their customers sort out problems. I have generally found other retailers more helpful.

Hi Wavechange, I agree, greater transparency would benefit consumers considerably.

I understand there will be circumstances where a consumer having to call a Manufacturer directly is likely to be beneficial, especially if arranging an Engineer visit or obtaining advice on operating an appliance. My annoyance is based on circumstances where the Manufacturer has confirmed an appliance is faulty and cannot be repaired, and requires replacing.

Under these circumstances, many customers have reported that Currys have insisted they must contact the Manufacturer for an ‘uplift’ code or ‘replacement reference’. I really don’t see that consumers should be responsible for obtaining reference numbers or replacement codes from the Manufacturer. These processes should not be placed at the feet of customers and I would like to see Currys taking ownership of these processes.

Instead of receiving a seamless, hassle free and straightforward process for handling faulty goods or replacements, it often seems that Currys introduce obstacles or delays which do no more than frustrate and irritate customers. My instinct is Currys do not have adequate resources to cope with Customer issues and are therefore passing their responsibilities back to customers in order to lighten the load.

I agree Wingman, but It’s more a question of passing the buck of responsibility, starting with Currys – all the way through the various organisations who are supposed to provide consumer protection from rogue traders, corporate irregularities and irresponsible business practices.

Looking at this longstanding problem objectively, there are too many fingers in too many pies, each one passing the buck of responsibility from one to the other, leaving frustrated and angry consumers to fend for themselves when faced with malfunctioning and defective goods for which they have paid good money or have signed credit agreements as a condition of purchase.

Starting with consumer protection there is:

Currys
Which?
Citizens Advice
Trading Standards
OFT now CMA
Consumer Rights Act 2015
OPSS Office for Product Safety and Standards – and probably a few more.

As long as these organisations continue to pass the responsibility over from one to the other, with all the red tape that ensues, Currys will continue with their complacent, malfunctional business practices, until one of these organisations comes clean and breaks the passing-of-the-buck cycle.

The following may explain a little more:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joyceearussell/2020/09/26/great-leaders-dont-pass-the-buck/

Hi Beryl, some valid points you raised, some of which I agree with and others not so.

Keen to read the link you posted, but the URL takes me to a blank page? Is the URL correct?

Marvelous, thanks Chirag.

Interesting reading Beryl, thanks.

Follows on from my previous suggestion that perhaps the CEO of Currys should be invited to read this forum (assuming he doesn’t already).

Thanks Chirag

Those are good points, Alfa. There is no doubt that manufacturers will sell substandard products at inflated prices into an undemanding market. One of Which?’s key functions is to educate the market and set higher specifications for product performance. Being the best of a bad lot is not good enough for a high score carrying an implied recommendation to purchase.

I agree with you John.

Printers in the UK seem to fall into two categories:
– Too cheap with manufacturers ripping us off with ink more expensive than gold.

– Over-priced as manufacturers rip us off to cover the gold-plated ink we won’t have to buy every few months.

It is not even as though the Brother ink tank printers above are completely new. I found reviews for a DCP-T210 back in 2018.

I have been looking for a reasonably priced printer that does not need to produce high-quality prints, but be able to print, copy, scan AND have a horizontal internal paper tray.

It doesn’t exist in the UK under £200. Why?

What can Which? do?

We have been very satisfied with our two HP Envy Photo 7134 printers that print, copy, scan and have a horizontal internal paper tray. They will print either single or double-sided [flipping the image on either the long or short side].

It is easy to re-load ink cartridges and clear any paper jams. I can’t remember how much they cost but not more than £150 I am sure. The 7134 is no longer a current model sold direct by HP but appears to be available on Amazon [I have not looked elsewhere] at £165 including the HP Instant Ink service for five months. I don’t believe that is compulsory after the initial supply although generic inks will probably not function.

The speed and paper capacity are good enough for home or home/office use. Double-sided printing is slower because the sheets need to dry between passes. Each printer is used for 150-200 pages every month on average.

I have not printed photos using photographic paper but colour images are good, registration is good, and overall they have been trouble-free machines.

You can buy 3rd party inks much cheaper than the OEM stuff and avoid the high prices. So a choice exists.

Thank you for the recommendation John, but how do you buy new ink?

I may be wrong, but I see ink purchase plans as another way to make sure manufacturers can continue to squeeze us financially.

The printer is for my dad and it just needs to work with the minimum of hassle which will mean OEM ink. 3rd party inks are OK for those willing to sort out their printers when manufacturers stop them working but there are too many reports of them being crippled by software updates.

We use the HP Instant Ink service which is automatic and has proved very reliable. New cartridges turn up as and when required in return for a monthly payment based on estimated consumption. Different tariffs are available.

I tend to agree with you about the manipulation of ink supplies by the manufacturers. I wish it were not so. I also dislike the ‘big brother’ arrangement by which printer activity is monitored by HP [the printer has its own e-mail address and there is two-way communication with mother]. I stopped fretting over this when considering how convenient it all is and the fact that it does seem to be cheaper than buying OEM HP ink cartridges by retail. There are times when an easy life trumps an economical one.

In the past, with Brother printers, we had occasional problems with non-OEM ink so had to keep a stock of OEM cartridges in case of emergency. Most of the printing we do does have a critical time dimension so reliability is an important consideration.

I have just looked at HP Instant Ink printing plans. He doesn’t normally do much printing but 10 pages a month for 99p would regularly get £1or £2 added on for additional pages so it would have to be £2.99 for 50 pages a month.

That is £36 a year but could easily increase if HP raise their prices. My dad just doesn’t need that added hassle and it would be me sorting him out and I also don’t need the added hassle.

I agree these printing plans are not suitable for everyone. There is a carry-over allowance if the printer is not used much in a particular month but that might not always be advantageous. There can be a tendency to do more printing than is strictly necessary which then wastes more paper and electricity. If there is a good and convenient OEM supplier available or a reliable on-line outlet that could be the best way forward.

I do the printing for an elderly lady who does not wish to get embroiled in the problems of home printing. She e-mails the documents or asks me to print off certain web pages. Her needs are quite modest and would not justify the expenditure on a new printer, ink and paper stocks. She picks the work up when out walking her dog. We also seem to be feeding the dog.

Hi Alfa – You mention looking for a printer with a horizontal paper tray. As far as I know, this is more or less standard now. The capacity can vary between models, so that might be a consideration if you plan to do this for your father.

I have used third party ink for years without problems and so have friends. Although we have long-running Conversation about manufacturers blocking third party cartridges, this seems to be avoidable if you don’t allow firmware updates.

In order to sell printers in the UK, a company would have to ensure that they comply with CE or UKCA standards and be fitted with a UK plug. That might be why fewer models are available here. I struggled to find a small printer that would accept card for a photographer friend who used to print Christmas cards. That meant a printer with a rear feed as well as the internal tray. There was not much choice.

Thanks Em, I will look into them.

Wavechange, I also thought horizontal paper trays would be standard until I checked into a few models. Purely as an exercise, check out the Epson Ecotank ET-8500 I mentioned above and see if you can definitely tell what paper feeds it has. I couldn’t.

Manufacturers tend to not show rear feeds in printer images presumably as users don’t like them. I have looked at many printers over the last few months and the only way to tell for sure on some models is to find the manual.

I agree with you on not much choice for card printers.

I had a look at the Epson website after your original post, Alfa. The information is not very useful and I recall it did not mention the size of the main paper tray. Going back, here is what it says: “The ET-8500 has photo-size and A4 front paper trays plus will print directly to suitable CDs/DVDs. The rear tray accepts speciality media such as craft papers and card, whilst the A4 straight paper feed means you can print on media up to 1.3mm thick and 2m long!”

This website shows the internal paper tray in the open position: https://uk.pcmag.com/printers/136655/epson-ecotank-photo-et-8500-wireless-color-all-in-one-supertank-printer Apparently the tray will take 100 sheets of paper and also accommodate smaller sheets for photos.

One problem with rear paper feed is that it increases the footprint of the printer. If the user is short of space that might require moving the printer forward when the rear tray is in use.

Hi Alfa, did you specifically require an ‘inkjet’ printer or have you considered a ‘laser’ printer?

I stopped using inkjet printers years ago, as I found them unreliable and there is always potential for mess from the cartridges. Laser printers are affordable, within the price range you indicated and offer all the features you specified, including a horizontal paper tray.

The toners are inexpensive, last for ages and easy to replace.

Well done wavechange, you did better than me, but you shouldn’t have to scour the internet to find out. You have to wonder why Epson and Which? didn’t divulge this information up front, though I suppose if Epson did it would highlight all those that did not have internal paper trays.

Hi Wingman, I wasn’t looking at laser printers, but they will now be under consideration.

The Brother DCP-L2510D is an absolute gem of a laser printer. You get a whole lot of printer for the money.

Not sure if it meets all of your requirements, but well worth considering. The toner cartridges, both genuine and non-genuine are well priced and last a very long time, ranging in cost from £18.00 to £40.00 depending on the page capacity ordered. Keep in mind the drum needs replacing in addition to the toner, usually around every 12,000 pages, but non-genuine drums are relatively inexpensive, ranging from £15.00 – £30.00.

But overall this has proved to be an exceptional printer, totally reliable, excellent value given the extensive features and sensible running costs.

My Epson ET4750 has a document feed. I don’t often use this, and am not sure if it is duplex. The main printer is duplex. It has a front paper feed -one – and this adjusts to the paper/photopaper that is fed in. It takes 200 sheets of A4 at a time, but I would not place that much in at once. The printer has been here for about a year and a half now. The black ink is just below half and the colours are at three quarters full. It has gone through four packets of A4 in this time. The text print is very readable, but a little ragged (if one was being picky) photographs seem to come out well. I can’t remember the cost of the printer, I think it was about £360. It scans things accurately. The fact that it just works on command without fuss is a definite bonus. I’d buy it again. There are probably enough advantages over the cheaper models to make the extra cost of this one worthwhile. The Fax facility isn’t one of them, but the larger colour touch screen is.

Thanks Wingman but it needs to to be colour.

I have the ET-7750 that is very similar to yours Vynor. I have not held back with printing and still have just over half the original inks. The printer also came with a spare set so will last me years.

The internal horizontal bar that the printhead moves across needs to wiped frequently with a tissue otherwise I get smudges on the paper.

I was going to get one of the cheaper models for my dad until I realised they don’t have internal paper trays.

Sorry Alfa, I must have missed that. I’ve never had a need for colour printing, so I am not sure how they compare in initial cost and running costs compared with an inkjet.

For black printing a laser printer is undoubtedly a reliable and economical solution. Colour laser printers usually have three colour toner cartridges plus black. A full set for the Lexmark I had at work cost £450. 🙁

I agree that colour laser printers can be much better for some purposes such are printing vibrant colour graphics and dark backgrounds completely free of banding, even though inkjet printers are superior for photos. For most home users inkjet printers are probably the best solution but I used both at work.

Does taking donations by card involve the account provider making a charge on each transaction?

I believe that card payments are subject to a charge of between 1 and 2%.

Dealing with money involves someone in effort and that needs to be paid for. Even recycling cash is something we can’t always do without incurring charges; for example, a shop that takes cash for purchases and dispenses this cash to others through the cash without purchase scheme is still charged a fee by the service operator. I wonder why we seem to accept these charges and yet complain about ATMs that charge a fee.

Hi Wavechange, might be a long shot, but depending on who the Charity banks with, some banks offer portable card reader facilities as an account option.

Some may even provide the terminal free. I’m not sure how their processing rates might compare with the major payment processors, but if you have not already done so, it might be worthwhile seeing what facilities, if any, the Bank could offer.

People complain about ATM charges because getting a wad of cash from a hole in the wall is regarded as a poor substitute for going into a bank branch, presenting a cheque to the friendly teller, and stating in which denominations you want your money. The fact that the ATM might be in a more convenient location than your bank branch, is likely to be accessible at any time of the day or night, and, as part of the same quick transaction, can provide an account update and other information, seems to bypass people’s mental faculties. I don’t know where my generation went wrong exactly but we seem to have spawned a ‘something-for-nothing’ mentality in our descendants. With my first account with the Midland Bank I had to pay quarterly charges; it instilled a sense of recognition that every worthwhile activity had a value.

This also countered the argument often made today that we shouldn’t have to pay to access our own money. Why not? It doesn’t look after itself and keep itself safe. These functions incur costs.

One letter wrong on the e.mail address and no chance of correcting it. Result -no quill.

Thanks Wingman. I know that the charity banks with HSBC. I will ask our treasurer to investigate card payments and see what our bank has to offer.

It seems that most of the small card readers are used in conjunction with a mobile phones, but there are models that include a SIM card. We would need one on the EE network.

Quite daring, Vynor :-). I think we actually place our money in their care so that when we want to pay someone we ask our bank to do it for us. That costs them time and resources to do and most of us expect that to be done without any cost to us. So maybe the interest they earn helps towards our free banking expectations.

We can all access our money free of charge, 24/7/52, of course by keeping it under the bed (or anywhere else we choose at home).

I can understand why you would prefer a standalone card reader with SIM card, but you may find this is a more expensive option when compared to using a smartphone with a payment processors app and bluetooth connected card reader.

I guess you will need to establish the costs of both and reach a decision on which best suits your budget and operational needs.

Depending on who is on duty on the day we could have a dozen or more users of the card reader and some of them (including me) use mobile networks other than EE. We operate in a rural area without even a mains electricity supply never mind a landline. Two of our volunteers don’t even have a smartphone.

We certainly need to look at costs but if a standalone unit is economically viable it could be the best solution for us.

If banks only loaned our money in the small amounts we place with them there would be hardly any interest. It is because they can aggregate it into large sums that interest materialises and provides free banking. This includes free cheque books, a free debit card, free use of branches and ATM’s [including those of other banks], free statements, free paying-in facilities, free standing orders and direct debits. A charge based on account activity [including balance levels] would no doubt be fairer overall but I am not advocating that, just suggesting a degree of appreciation that services we take for granted cost money to provide.

It is possible that for many people the end of free banking would hurt a lot harder than the end of cash. I think commerce in general is the real enemy and the acceptance of cash should be mandatory up to a certain level.