Racism infects every part of our lives

I totally agree with that Reya and I also fully accept that while there is injustice – more than just unpleasant comments – this is a matter of concern and shame for all of us. I don’t belittle the problem and certainly wish for the level playing field so that we can exist in harmony with one another on a equal footing.

I hesitated to bother to give my honest view in the first place because such sensitive topics arouse emotive responses.
@angus-farquhar ”Just because you haven‘t witnessed these things happening in your experience, doesn’t mean they are not happening when you aren’t there or are not looking.” is a misrepresentation of what I was trying to convey, or a misunderstanding, and precisely why this sort of discussion is so prone to misinterpretation or, worse, condemnation. That is a comment I should have expected that is inappropriate, I do not say racism does not exist; I see the news.

My concern is how Which? expect to change anything on their own. It seems to me there are other organisations more capable at investigating racism and trying to deal with it. IConsumers are all of us and are not exclusive to Which?

I disagree with the statement that most white males are essentially racist. I am not, nor are my boys.

Malcolm: racism is often very subtle and manifests in hundreds of different ways. If we assume language is a tool of thought, as Chomskey has argued, then looking at the large number of compound words starting with ‘black’ can be educative.

Just off the top of my head

blackguard
Blacklist
Blackmail
Blackballing
Black arts

In English we often assign ‘black’ as a prefix for actions seen as unpleasant or antisocial. Even in the comparatively enlightened world of the computer hacker, ‘Black hats’ ate the bad boys; ‘White hats’, the good. The symbolism of white as positive and black as negative is pervasive in our culture. “Good guys” wear white hats and ride white horses; “bad guys” wear black hats and ride black horses. Angels are white and devils are black. The definition of black includes “without any moral light or goodness; evil, wicked, indicating disgrace, sinful,” while that of white includes “morally pure, spotless, innocent, free from evil.”

Internationally, the generalized application of “tribal” in reference to Africans, as well as failure to acknowledge the religious, cultural and societal diversity of African people, is a decidedly racist dynamic. It is part of the process whereby Europeans and Americans justify, or avoid confronting their oppression of third world peoples. Africa has been particularly abused by this dynamic, as witness to the pervasive “darkest Africa” image. This image, widespread in Western culture, evokes an Africa covered by jungles and inhabited by “uncivilized,” “cannibalistic,” “pagan, “savage”peoples.

So we each grew up with stories, novels, films, TV shows and language which has played a major role in conditioning us to see ‘Black’ as a negative concept.

This use of language is extraordinary dangerous to a society; it acts on the subconscious as a filter to degrade and dehumanise those who appear different. Hence many refer to BLM protestors as ‘savage’ and ‘destructive’ and we start to see actions such as those of Trump, where Federal officers in unmarked vehicles appeared to forcefully seize protesters from the streets and detain them without justification. They have also fired tear gas and less-lethal munitions into crowds of demonstrators.

Evidence emerging today from Police in Portland confirms, however, that the Graffiti being daubed around the city was the work of a single white man and suspicion is growing that far right groups of white protestors are causing the violence in many US cities.

So as the white majority we may claim not to be racist in any way, but any good Psychologist will confirm that our upbringing cannot but fail to have an effect, albeit subconscious, perhaps.

It’s a little like any inherent issue: the first step is admitting there’s a problem. Then steps to fix it can be taken.

There is no doubt that racism is an issue, as there is with other forms of discrimination. It is not new. It has been admitted a long time ago. I want to find out the extent to which it affects consumers through business and services – both private and public.

I hope Which? will concentrate on consumer issues that might be detrimental to those of other races and leave outright racism to more appropriate organisations.

You might see “black” as a negative concept. I don’t. Racism involves a lot more than black people. We don’t want any whitewash ( tongue in cheek, Ian, just to avoid any misunderstanding 🙂 ).

As far as I can see looking at the origins of the words you list they do not have racist connotations. However I think this Convo should concentrate on looking at where discrimination based on race is taking place in consumer matters rather than debating whether we are all rascists (or not).

It’s not as simple as whether they have racist origins, Malcolm. The problem is that many terms which embody negative connotations are almost invariably associated with the word ‘black’. Put another way, how many reassuring, complimentary, warming terms have ‘black’ in them?

Is this all racist? I doubt it, because the human race was afraid of the dark for thousands of years before racism reared its ugly head. But as our language has developed, words such as ‘black’ and ‘dark’ have become synonymous with evil.

But it’s important all of us do consider what being racist truly involves. Otherwise how can we possibly deal with its corrosive and destructive effects on society?

There are more races than black, Ian. And there is white persecution and discrimination as well. However, my hope is that Which? focus on consumer detriment shown to be purely down to race. If I want a discussion about the concept of racism I’ll look elsewhere.

We soon learned to lighten the darkness. I hope this Convo might do the same. Meanwhile I’ll try to arrange, hopefully, a game of bowls with my good friend from Goa who, incidentally, was unanimously voted in as Lady President of our county bowls association.

If this is the aim of the Convo, why don’t we just let it get in with looking at where detriment occurs, its extent, and how we should deal with it?

Well, most non-white peoples tend to identify as Black in Western Europe, and I’m curious as to where you can find examples of “white persecution and discrimination” anywhere in the Western world and certainly not in Russia or the East, generally.

But the issue of racism is less to do with individual reactions to individuals and more to do with the cultural and systemic racism that blights the lives of so many.

As I’ve tried to show, Racism is surreptitious in the way it skews our perceptions. And obviously, you’re free to say it doesn’t affect you, and that’s your right. But there are numerous examples of racism in the UK and especially in our institutions. I’m both astonished but delighted that Which? has chosen to make this an issue, front and centre.

I’d rather concentrate on what Which? hopefully will do on this topic. But maybe you have forgotten Bosnia? For example. However, it is irrelevant to what I imagine is the aim of this Convo.

No; haven’t forgotten Bosnia. And you will notice I mentioned the way some Welsh speakers are regarded as an example of prejudice and bigotry, earlier.

Thank you for that very perceptive contribution to the Conversation, Beryl.

I have been trying to think of any examples of Which? magazine going out of its way to test or report on any products or services that are especially relevant to black and minority ethnic communities or particular religions. Most cultures have unique foodstuffs, make-up products, cooking vessels, clothing, medical conditions, travel needs or banking arrangements – not all of them in every case, of course – so I hope we can look forward to some of these important aspects coming under the spotlight in the foreseeable future – hopefully not in an opportunistic or tokenist manner.

I wonder whether the thumbs up and down could be turned off for this Conversation; I feel that the negative indicator is being used in a discriminatory manner against some contributors. We must respect other people’s right to their opinions and their right to express them. To keep this Conversation going in a balanced way we should remove the deterrence of a severe down-marking or the patronisation of excessive up-marking.

John, the thumbs issue is interesting. Out of 18 comments. 10 are from Which?, 5 from regulars so I wonder where the thumbs have come from? The current thumbs system has, in my view, generally worked well and I think should remain.
I do not doubt, as I said earlier, that a degree of racism is present in the UK, depending on what part of the country or city you look at. However ”racism infects every part of out lives” seems to me to be a gross generalisation, particularly when the word “infect” is chosen. The last thing we should do is to introduce language designed to inflame.
Jon mentions problems in the USA as a reason we should tackle it here. Fair enough, we can learn from others. But the attitudes I believe in parts of the USA are quite different, as they are in other parts of the world – India, China, (ex)Serbia for example – and should not be used to judge the UK’s position. He also introduces COVID-19 under the racism heading; have Which? reviewed the work going on examining genetics and the virus? It may be more to do with race than racism.
My concern, expressed at the start, was not that racism exists (as do other forms of discrimination) but where Which? are going with it. If they wish to examine the detriment directly suffered due to race in consumer matters than I expect them to take a better approach than just quoting perceptions and anecdotes. So publish the data you have that shows how, all other things being equal, race has been used to disadvantage people in insurance, holidays, loans, accommodation and other relevant issues. I will willingly support that approach and any action to stop that.

I am already in the doghouse (with pleasant company) so am quite willing to accept another tranche of thumbs.

@angus-farquhar, I don’t wish to prolong this but do not want what I try to say misrepresented. I do think racism exists, as do other forms of discrimination. I did not say “there might be a little bit but it is only small and isn’t an issue” and if Which? wish to interpret my comment in that way they are wrong.

“Which? is an organisation renowned for its research and as such I don’t think it has ever been implied that we would base anything we do on ‘perceptions and anecdotes’.“. I was responding to the introduction to this Convo which is essentially anecdotal. I was simply suggesting that to have a meaningful discussion we need hard facts on which to base it. I hope that is what Which? will now do.

You did not acknowledge that I said “So publish the data you have that shows how, all other things being equal, race has been used to disadvantage people in insurance, holidays, loans, accommodation and other relevant issues. I will willingly support that approach and any action to stop that.”

This type of discussion should surely avoid what can be seen as personal criticism, as the Convo guidelines require.
(“You can’t agree with everyone all of the time, but when you do disagree please be polite and speak to them as you’d like to be spoken to. Critique the argument being made, not the person making it.“). Views and opinions on both sides should be respected as contributing to a constructive discussion. That, I accept, can be difficult with a sensitive topic such as this.

I’ve just restored a thumb on your post about your South African holiday, Beryl. What I suspect we will start seeing is a a lot of thumbs being changed as those with strong views start to learn about this topic.

Thanks Ian. I acknowledge this is a sensitive subject and some would prefer it to quietly fade away into insignificance, but that is also the fundamental problem with the thumbs system. When communication is thwarted nothing gets solved and a new topic will come along that takes precedence over the previous one only to reappear again months or years later.