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The W? members group appears limited to Facebook, the organisation whose monetisation of members and utter disregard for their privacy is well recorded. It strikes me this is something Which? should have no part of.

There are a lot of Which? Members on Facebook as well though, and one of the motivations for starting the W? Members Club was to create a space for these members on a platform they were already active on.

Whether you choose to use it though is very much up to you – it’s available if you want it, but equally Which? Conversation isn’t going anywhere either, and the responses we see from this survey will help us understand more of how to move these spaces forward so that people who visit Which? online can get involved in a way they would like to.

DerekP says:

I tend to agree with that. I do have a Facebook account, because it allows me to keep in touch with close family and friends when they post there. But I keep a separate segregated PC for Facebook and I won’t allow any of their software onto any of my main devices.

That said, now that Facebook is a thing, should Which? be completely ignoring as a media platform, when there are campaigns to be done?

I see an awful lot of disinformation being propagated via Facebook. Can that be countered by also publishing light and truth there, or is the platform beyond redemption?

Abby Semple Skipper says:

6 November 2020

Which? do post a lot of myth busting things on FB. I think that is the biggest reason for them to be on there – to be the voice of reason in a sea of nonsense.

People use FB. A lot. I think it would be remiss of Which? not to have a presence on there.

Ian says:

6 November 2020

Well, males aged between 18 and 34 form the majority, but the UK as a whole has far fewer than you might imagine.

But it’s how FB operates in general that leaves me questioning if W? should have any part of it.

“Zuckerberg built a website called “Facemash” in 2003 while attending Harvard University. The site was comparable to Hot or Not and used “photos compiled from the online face books of nine Houses, placing two next to each other at a time and asking users to choose the “hotter” person”.[17] Facemash attracted 450 visitors and 22,000 photo-views in its first four hours.[18] The site was sent to several campus group listservs, but was shut down a few days later by Harvard administration. Zuckerberg faced expulsion and was charged with breaching security, violating copyrights and violating individual privacy.”

So he started as he’s continued. He apparently stole the original idea from three Harvard seniors, who sued him for several millions – and won.

I’ve lost count of the numerous times FB has ‘promised’ to do something, then failed and explained it was ‘a technical hitch’. It’s only very reluctantly agreed to take any action at all against purveyors of hate speech, And some of what it has done is laughable.

“Facebook has ordered the end to an academic monitoring project that has repeatedly exposed failures by the internet giant to clearly label political advertising on its platform. The social media goliath informed New York University (NYU) that research by its Tandon School of Engineering’s Online Transparency Project’s Ad Observatory violates Facebook’s terms of service on bulk data collection and demanded it end the program immediately.” The justification? It was on ‘privacy grounds’.

It took FB until October this year to take a stand against Holocaust deniers.

So I see any participation with FB as dancing with the devil. That tends not to end well.

alfa says:

6 November 2020

I recently learned of a couple of people around 30 years old whose lives revolve around fakebook.

They believe Covid is a government conspiracy to control us and all the figures are made up. They also believe the government will force their way into our homes to vaccinate us.

They both had Covid before anyone else in the country so they are immune. Whether their ‘immunity’ is the reason or not I don’t know, but they refuse to wear face masks.

This is the sort of fake news and garbage they get from fakebook and are unlikely to see any truthful facts on the likes of Which?

wavechange says:

I guess this Convo isn’t aimed at those who visit Convo on a daily basis. I have been looking at the ‘Which? Members Club’ on Facebook. It’s here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/whichmembersclub Although I’m not intending to post there I have seen several posts by Which? staff and found a few interesting discussions. Not surprisingly, some of the posts are looking for advice on making purchases – something that we have never explored on Convo. I noticed that our Lauren was inviting input on a particular topic.

I don’t feel that it would be right in 2020 for Which? to ignore Facebook as a means of communication, though I am not keen on the company. If I had my way, no company or other organisation would be allowed to even put cookies on our computers. Thankfully there seems to be no advertising on this or any of the small number of Facebook pages I visit.

Part of what we ask in the survey is how often you visit Convo, so I’m keen to hear from anyone who visits the site in whatever frequency that may be.

malcolm r says:

I cannot complete the survey as I am not currently a member of the Which? Members Club on FB so cannot answer questions about it and cannot proceed with the survey. Nor do I particularly want to use Facebook.

To clear something up. Is there are Which? Conversation that is only open to subscribing members? I do not recall being asked for a membership number to join one – for example “Help us shape the future of Which?”. Nor to have to log in as a member to access it. Maybe I’ve overlooked something.

There’s not currently a section of Conversation that’s exclusively accessible to Which? Members. The W? Membership section is focused on discussions on membership, however it’s not currently gatekept or restricted in any way.

It’s not out of scope to develop something of that nature, or indeed more of a personalised experience generally, however I don’t want to put platform before person and develop without a good sense of what everyone wants to get out of the space.

The survey’s one tool for this. As I’ll say a lot in this space: if it’s something you want to see on Convo, make sure you pop it in the survey above as well as here (not least since it’ll make it easier for me to compile)!

Also to clarify – the survey that appears in the discussion above is exclusive to W? Conversation, so please do feel free to complete it.

The other surveys have gone out to the W? Members Club and the Gardening Group only within each group, so you’d only receive it if you’ve joined each of those groups.

alfa says:

Jon,
Question 2 of the above survey is:
Who were you most interested in engaging with when you joined the Facebook Members club?

🤦‍♂️ That should read “Which? Conversation?”, so please answer as such. I’ll get the survey team to correct that. Sorry about that!

I understand this question’s now worded correctly. Apologies again folks!

wavechange says:

This is why I abandoned the survey. I will revisit it tomorrow.

VynorHill says:

As with Malcolm I don’t have a Facebook account and don’t want one. Here you have created a specialist site for members only. In doing this you put barriers round it and exclude non-members from entering or reading any content. I have no personal complaint about this. If you want an exclusive site, that’s up to you. Chat among yourselves and enjoy the company. If you ever want to share your deliberations then you have to go public with them. Until you do, I’ll carry on posting on this site and let you get on with it.

John Ward says:

I have nothing to add to Malcolm’s and Vynor’s comments on the survey.

I share Wavechange’s and Derek’s view on the inclusion of the Facebook community in Which?’s outreach.

alfa says:

I am confuddled. 😖

The above survey asks about the Which Members Club.

I have a fake Fakebook account with a different email address for the few occasions it is the only way of getting information.

I tried to access the members club so logged into Fakebook and was asked my membership number. Funny, at the bottom of the pop-up it says Do not enter your password or other sensitive information here, even if you’re asked to by the The Which? members club admins. DOH!!!

This is the first time I have heard of this members club that was created a year ago. Who is it for and who are the 9.5K members? Are they all subscribers to which? It seems odd that 9.5K people would sign up there but very few here on the convos.

AFAIK, there is a public Which? on Fakebook, a private Which? on Fakebook, the convos and Twitter. Are they all attended regularly by Which? staff, or is that a problem and none of them get full attention.

edited . . . .

I see Jon has posted since I started writing this post.

John Ward says:

I have never been clear what ” a Which? member” means. I am just a Which? magazine subscriber but sometimes get the impression I am included in that category.

malcolm r says:

As far as I know you are an Associate Member with AGM voting rights. You can easily become an Ordinary Member (50p at risk if CA fails though). I’m not really sure what advantage that gives but as I repeat from time to time I believe Ordinary Members become such as they show an interest in the affairs of the CA and should be able to have some say in how it operates. However, in practice I’d think any subscriber after a year should be able to have some say – if Which? ever live up to their promise of engaging with its membership.

This sort of discussion, and mild criticism, is exactly why I would like to see a Convo restricted to (all) members only so “frank and full” discussions can be held between the CA and its membership rather than in public view.

John Ward says:

Thanks, Malcolm. I am quite content to remain in my present status.

12 November 2020

We’ve expanded the survey’s response window to the end of November in order to get more responses.

If you’re new to W? Conversation or here for years, commenting regularly or listening in in the background, please do take a few minutes and share your thoughts if you can – I’d really like to hear them!

That link again: https://which.focusvision.com/survey/selfserve/53b/201024#?

Thanks to everyone who took the time to fill in the survey! We very much appreciate your time in completing this.

We’re going to be collating the answers between this and the other surveys in the next week, so watch this space.

malcolm r says:

A shame it won’t be ready for the AGM?

Patrick Taylor says:

Malcolm can you get the true number of guarantors/shareholders of the Consumer Association please?

It is regrettable that there is no clear definition of the way in which there are three types of people who can read and even post in these Conversations. There are subscribers who are perhaps 0.5m, the general public and the sub-10,000 people who are actually, and legally, the people who should be giving direction to the Trustees. Unfortunately the Trustees are slightly distanced from the Which? Ltd Board of Directors who have practical control of the main part of the charity.

A rather bizarre situation where seven directors [ including the CEO] have lots of mainstream business experience but very little in terms of charity work. It may be that since Ms. McKechnie , CEO around 2000, was such a thorn in the side of business that the charity has become more businessman prone. It has been weak in taking stands against bad business behaviour by individual companies and of course the building industry as a whole.

My solution is that Which?, which is already outside normal company law by having its Trustees [Directors] elected by non-company members who never see the Accounts would be a better charity if it adopted the the wider governance as practiced by the National Trust.
That charity , to avoid, domination by a small group with an agenda, widened its governance to include a chamber of of people from other charities who would hold the executive Trustees to account. And no doubt raise points where the charity seemed to be missing a trick.

Readers may be surprised that CA/Which? has been pursuing a different policy reducing Trustees and the number of “shareholders” who get the Accounts. It is hardly surprising that under Mr Barwise there was approximately £40mof money wasted , and a bonus of £2.24m paid to 4 members of staff as apart of a series of overlocking profit schemes.

Consider whether that would have got past this arrangement:
The Council
The Council is the guardian spirit of the National Trust as embodied in its core purpose. Its specific responsibilities are to appoint the Trustees (including the Chair and Deputy Chair) and to monitor and support the Board of Trustees’ work and performance. The Council debates important issues of strategy and policy and shares its views about them with the Board. There are normally 36 members of Council. Half of these are elected by the membership, and half are appointed by kindred bodies which have an interest in the National Trust’s work. These are called Appointing Bodies. The specific responsibilities of the Council are described in sections 1.13.2-1.13.3 of the Governance Handbook

I think every person would think the National Trust arrangement is better then the current system of the CA/Which?.

malcolm r says: