Last year you told us about GP surgeries still using expensive phone numbers, despite their contract saying they shouldn’t.
Since then we’ve be looking into this, gathering evidence, and meeting with the telecoms regulator Ofcom, and MPs.
Landlines, mobiles and payphones all count
Last Tuesday we attended a debate about this issue in parliament between Bob Ainsworth MP and the Health Minister, Simon Burns MP. We went hoping that the Minister would state exactly how the Department of Health plans to stop GPs using expensive phone numbers.
While he didn’t tell us that, we were encouraged to hear him state – on the record – that any phone service ‘should not cost patients any more than a local landline call’.
We know from what you’ve told us that there has been some confusion as to whether mobile phones were also included, with some GPs and PCTs saying they weren’t. The Minister’s exact words in response to this were: ‘the regulations cover landlines, mobiles and payphones equally’. This means that GPs cannot say they’re sticking to the rules if calling from a mobile phone costs more.
According to Ofcom, 15% of households in the UK do not have a landline. The Minister also said that in 2011 ‘for the first time, the majority of call minutes originated from mobile phones’. We know it is almost always more expensive to call an 0844 number from a mobile phone than either 01, 02 or 03, so we welcomed this clarity.
We need concrete evidence
However, we were disappointed to hear the Minister say he’d been unable to find any evidence of GP surgeries using expensive numbers. So we will be sending him the ‘precise, concrete evidence’ he has asked for.
Has this happened to you? If it has, send us your phone bills at which.campaigns@which.co.uk and we’ll include them in our evidence to the Minister. But make sure that you include the name of your GP surgery, the name of your phone company and your tariff.
And don’t worry, in accordance with the Which? Privacy Policy, the information you supply will only be used by Which? and for the purposes stated and will not be passed to any third parties for marketing.
And, of course, tell us your experiences in the comments section here too.
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310 Comments
Add your commentThe Hebden Bridge Group Practice, aka Valley Medical Centre proudly presents its access telephone number as : 0844 477 2477 as shown on its web site at: http://www.hbgp.co.uk.
I asked someone who answered the phone about their position on their telephone number and they replied that ‘it is a local number’ and refused to accept that a profit share number is very different from an 0845 or a geographic number. So I checked my bill for the call and for 5:04 mins (including the music and dialogue) it cost £0.213 (21.3 p). Whereas a local (01422) call is £0.0125 (1.25p) per min. That looks like a markup of c. 300% to me.
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Plume
The Practice don’t make any money as such out of it. They get the system free. It’s NEG/Daisy Communications who get the profit – and we who pay for it.
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Castle Donington surgery uses 08444773092 and you are placed in TWO queues.First connected to the surgery and that can last up to 5 minutes and then eventually you get in the appointments queue.You are told what number in the queue you are(often as high as 10th) and all this is at 10p a minute.
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Plumstead Health centre use 08443878002 and there is a never ending list of press 1 for this press 2 for that. In an emergency I had to ring the doctor from a mobile. it cost me £3.63 just to make an appointment. when I mentioned it at the surgery I was told not to use a mobile. Ha! I will try not to have an emergency in future!!!
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My GP surgery (details below) have over 16,000 registered patients. Imagine the profit they make!
As a disabled pensioner, I have to call the surgery at least once a week and am faced with an endless selection of options just to get to speak to someone. I cannot afford the ridiculous charges incurred just for accessing medical advice and assistance which is my right!
The Staunton Group Practice
t: 0844 477 8651
[We have removed some of the contact details. Thanks, mods.]
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Both my wife and I have been housebound since December 2010 and therefore totally dependent upon the telephone to communicate with friends, service organisations and in particular our doctor’s surgery. It was for this reason that we decided to take out a contract with BT that provides for free calls up to maximum of 1 hour to geographical, 0845 and 0870 numbers 24 hours a day 7 days a week. My doctor’s surgery is one of nine in Kent that uses the 0844 telephone number, which of course is chargeable to BT users. My recent bill for December to March showed that I had made a total of 433 calls, of which 428 were free. The 5 remaining calls shown below were to the 0844 number of my surgery and lasted a total of 15.69 minutes at a cost of £1.55.
DATE TIME NUMBER CALL TYPE LENGTH COST
Wed 28 Dec 11 11:58 08444——– Special Svce 2:32 £0.270
Thu 19 Jan 12 15:56 08444——– Special Svce 2:15 £0.250
Tue 31 Jan 12 12:29 08444——– Special Svce 1:43 £0.220
Mon 13 Feb 12 14:31 08444——– Special Svce 5:39 £0.430
Thu 23 Feb 12 10:57 08444——– Special Svce 4:40 £0.380
All articles and documents I have seen on this subject refer only to 084 numbers without explaining that there can be a difference in the price between 0844 and 0845 numbers. Also they do not explain that the cost of the geographical number following the 0844 is always chargeable. For example, 0845 numbers are free to BT users whereas 0844 are not. There is seldom, if any, reference to the significant differences between suppliers for both the connection charge and the charge per minute.
I have expressed concern to my MP that with more financial responsibility being given to surgeries, unless tight regulations are put in place to stop the use of these numbers, there must be the possibility that more surgeries will be tempted to move to 0844 numbers in future and to look for other opportunities to partake in schemes that also offer a financial incentive.
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Hi RON
You cant have a tighter Regulation than ‘ In Breach of Contract unless they have taken All Reasonable Steps to Comply by April 2011 ‘ that gave them 12 months to Terminate / Re-negotiate or Migrate to their 0344 Option on their Phone System Contract. None were allowed to start New Contracts with a 0844 number from April 2010 but quite a few have been signing Contracts with this number illegally as recently as June 2011
All Practices using the 0844 number are practicing illegally and in Breach of their GP Contract and the PCTs are letting them perform illegally, by not doing their Job and themselves ignoring their NHS Contracts and Government Directives to Action these Breaches.
I am afraid it needs someone to take a PCT to Court or for the Health Ombudsman to get involved for not actioning these Breaches nothing is going to happen quickly. The trouble is that this is Civil Law not Criminal Law and the PCTs know that You and I ( Jo Public ) are not likely to go this far.
What is needed is for a High Profile Lawyer to do it Pro-bono and that is not very likely.
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Ringe
My wife and I are registered with the Health Centre in Crowle. I ring them on a regular basis to renew my repeat prescription, arrange blood tests and appointments with a diabetic nurse and to see a doctor when other illnesses require it. The only number available for making an appointment to see a doctor or nurse, or speak to the dispensary, is an 0844 number. Unfortunately, my BT ‘Unlimited Anytime Calls’ contract does not cover 0844 numbers, although 0845 and 0870 numbers are free under this contract. I hate being kept on the phone in a holding system which lasts for on average 10 minutes and then have to pay for this service separately.
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Myself and children are registered with st budeaux in plymouth, i have complained about this 0844 number but the surgery turnt round and said that no other patient has, this is wrong because they keep you on the phone for extra 10 mins and we are paying more for this service which i think is not on.0844 477 3925
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Billington
Our gp surgery still uses the 0844 number proudly showing it off on the web site http://thornhillsmedical.nhs.uk/welcome,29498.htm
I have asked them about the use of this number as it costs pounds to phone a book any appointment. You often queue to reach another queue and I have been on the phone for 20 minutes before (in peak time) No one has answers of why they have gone to this number but this is the single highest charge on my bill when we have to ring the doctors.
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Little Common Surgery, Bexhill-on-Sea. Tel no. 0844 477 8629.(combined with The Old Town Surgery)
This is the surgery I call, having to use the 0844 telephone number.
The joint surgeries have just published their recent Patient Satisfaction Survey.
Some patients had complained about having to use a high premium rate number to call the surgery, the response from the surgery being I quote ” This is not the case as the calls are charged at the same cost as calling a geographic number”
This to most people would mean the same as calling their neighbour, however at best, the surgeries are misleading the public, at worst acting illegally and being downright dishonist, why can’t they come clean and admit it costs more to call on an 0844 number than using a local code and number?
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Woodhouse Medical Centre, Skelton Lane, Woodhouse, Sheffield. is still using an 0844 number. My elderly and disabled parents need to make frequent calls and are being charged over and above what they would pay for a local call which under their current providers contract is free for all 01, 0845 and 0870 numbers.
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Plume
I have taken this matter to the Ombudsman in the past, without success. The diffficulty in bringing a legal action, is whom to sue. We are actually charged for these calls by our telephone providers, who in turn pay the surgeries’ providers. The latter (usually NEG/Daisy Communications) are the ones making the money. It’s a legal minefield. It is significant that in their latest advice to their customers NEG express doubts about the legality of what they are doing, and suggest that surgeries instal a line with a geographic number to cover themselves. None appear to have done so yet.
Additionally the PCT accepts the assurance of NEG that their tariffs do not exceed the cost of a local call – rather like taking the uncorroborated word of a burglar that he had a right to enter the property and take goods. The tariff taken by NEG as an example now appears to be used by no one, according to BT, who say that everyone now is on some form of inclusive tariff.
It’s not surprising that Daisy Communictions (soon to go public) recently announced an increase in their turnover – at the expense of the sick, weak and vulnerable in society!
When our local paper tried to expose them, they were met with threats of legal action.
Johnson
I only have a mobile , not a landline. My GP only has an 08444 number (for ALL calls). I recently asked about the charges and they explained (in writing) that the calls from a landline were “around the cost of a call to a normal landline” but admitted that calling from a mobile may cost more. My bill showed that to successfully make an appointment cost me around £2.50, whereas calling Australia on a special access number – from my mobile – cost only about £1.80 for an hour’s talk! How can phone companies – and GPs – justify this profit-margin?
This is all the more worrying as many people in my area (Tottenham) live in rented or temporary accomodations and will most likely only have a mobile phone AND will be the hardest hit for budget constraints.
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Hi norm de Plume
[quote] It is significant that in their latest advice to their customers NEG express doubts about the legality of what they are doing, and suggest that surgeries instal a line with a geographic number to cover themselves. None appear to have done so yet. [/quote]
The above quote from your Post is very interesting – could I ask if you have found this in Black and White or verbal ? As you say NEG/Daisy would be admitting that 0844 is not compliant, which must be a first.
If it is a sensative source perhaps you could PM me on the sayno site as I dont think there is a PM Mode on Which -
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Plume
To emphasise the hypocrisy of this, the main shareholder in NEG, Matt Riley, appeared on Dragons’ Den as a Dragon, and was seen poopooing a scheme by an aspiring entrepreneur to pay people to queue in a dentist’s surgery – precisely what we are paying NEG to do at the doctor’s.
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I am a patient at Elms Surgery, Lilliput, Poole (Senior Partners, Dr Susan Thomas & Dr A. Rutland). I confirm that they use an 08444 number for all contact with their surgery. I hope C.A. can use this as sufficient evidence in their campaign. It is rather inconvenient to send my my phone bills to C.A. because my use of the surgery is intermittent and my phone bill is on-line only.
It should come as no surprise to people that nowadays, the medical profession, (G.P’s in particular), can behave as badly to their patients as does the food industry to the public at large. It is particularly grievous when the behaviour is underhand, not open, nor transparent, and contrary to rules, codes etc, of which the trader/doctor is well aware butthe public is not.It is justified by the mantra, “the pursuit of profit”.
It seems a nonsense for any C.A. member to introduce red herrings about the difficulties in “who to sue”. The responsible principals for Doctors Surgeries are, of course, the GP’s themselves.
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Plume
You obviously have no understanding of the Law of Contract. Please feel free to sue your GP.
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Delta
Bob
You probably didn’t see my earlier post on page 4 – I am also a patient of the Lilliput Surgery. Although their own website sticks to publicising their 08444 number, the NHS Choices webpage relating to the practice also reveals their 01202 710013 number (not sure if this is by design or accident, probably the latter). However, I have tried to spread the news by posting this number on the very useful ‘Say No to 0870′ website.
V
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Wycherley
Carmel Medical Centre in Darlington only has the ‘phone number 0844-477-8758 available for patients and the message and direction service takes forever. I have asked several times for the local number but have been told that this is the only number available. A notice in the surgery also states this. They do, however, use a local fax number…..As I have ‘free’ local and national calls with my Virgin Media package, this means that I have to pay for this 0844 number.
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I found this on my phone bill for a call to my doctors – 12 Oct 11 08448550567 3 mins cost 28 pence. Woodlands medical practice in East Finchley N2. To my knowledge it still costs the same as reception staff never said otherwise when I raised the issue 2 days ago (16/04/12).
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The Caen Medical Centre in Braunton, Devon is still using an 0844 number:
http://www.caenmedicalcentre.nhs.uk/index.php?pid=5
Note that they have a local Fax number….
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My dr’s surgery at Falkland House, Falkland Road, Sheffield S11 9DD is still using a 0845 number which I understand costs more from a Virgin cable phone. As the whole are round the surgery is cabled up this means many patients will be paying extra.
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Johnson
The Moir Medical Centre. Regent Street, Long Eaton, Nottingham NG10 1QQ. O844 477 1759. They even predominantly show this number on their website. It does show a local number but hardly ever answers or are kept waiting excessively as do 0844. A search engine only comes up with 0844 never the local number.
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Smith
Hi
I have a copy of my telephone bill to prove their charges also you can see by checking my DR’s website http://taff-valepractice.com/in_an_emergency.html their number is
0844 477 3487 just to make an appointment – the number is answered then you are in a queue for ages – all this time the pounds are clocking up on my bill.
As I work for a living I am unable to pop around to make an appointment and am forced to call them.
I have already complained to the surgery but just get ignored.
Mon 26 Mar 11:16 08444773487 12m 1s – 3.505
Thu 5 Apr 12:05 08444773487 19m 0s – 5.542
Mon 16 Apr 09:17 08444773487 1m 45s – 0.511
Mon 16 Apr 09:26 08444773487 10m 15s – 2.990
Apr 2012: Total £12.54 to make 4 appointments.
Thanks
Sheila
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Plume
What network on you on?
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some are from vodafone some virgin landline
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River Lodge Surgery in Lewes, East Sussex, has very recently switched from a local number to 0844 3878. There are frequently long queues, so someone is making a few bob out of this. Patients have objected, but so far without success.
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Our Sandhurst Group Practice have been using 0844 for some years and because of there set up you are usually waiting two minutes before speaking to a receptionist.Someone is making money out of using these numbers but it is not the patiients.
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Ridgeway Surgery
1 Mount Echo Av, London E4 7JX
0844 499 4556
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The Fair Telecoms Campaign (www.fairtelecoms.org.uk) has been formerly launched. It combines the campaigning energies of myself (David Hickson) and Dave Lindsay (of SayNoTo0870) with those of the many campaigners on issues of fairness in relation to provision and use of telecoms services.
Regulatory change to prevent use of 084 numbers in the NHS has already been achieved, but the practice continues because the regulations are not being enforced, especially in relation to GPs. We await news of what Which? has been able to achieve since joining us in campaigning on this aspect of the issue.
Contributors to this conservation may be interested to find out more about fairtelecoms, and the action that it is taking on this issue. I will not write at length here, as I would rather that others added their own comments to this conversation.
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