Stop and rethink the smart meter roll-out
Last year your comments about the government’s plans to roll out smart meters leapt to our attention. Some of you clearly weren’t happy. Today we’re calling for the government to stop and review the roll-out.
Some of you were also upset with Which? – you wanted us to do more to challenge the government on its roll-out plans. Well we have.
We’re urging the government to rethink its smart meter roll-out until it has conducted an urgent review.
There were over 500 comments on last year’s smart meter Convos. Some of you stood up for the new technology and its roll-out into all our homes by 2019. But some vented your fury over the UK’s smart plan, with a key concern being the cost – projected to be at least £11 billion.
What a ‘smart’ community
As your comments poured in we decided to commission a thorough review. And while this research (carried out by the Centre for Sustainable Energy) was being put together we also made sure that other important bodies knew about your comments.
In one Conversation, someone said they didn’t think I existed! Well, I can assure you I do. Over the past few months I have attended meetings and industry events where I have stood up – not always to welcome attention – to say how many of you have told us on Which? Conversation that you’re concerned.
We also sent some of your comments to the Public Accounts Committee – probably Parliament’s most powerful committee of MPs – which has been investigating the roll-out. Industry and government reps have previously told me that it’s too early to discuss smart meters with the public, but I said that our Which? Conversation ‘smart’ community was well and truly up and running.
Energy suppliers read your concerns
One of the best moments for me was when I sat next to one of the top directors of a big energy supplier and saw him studying Which? Conversation on his laptop, rather than listening to the conference speaker.
He scrolled through cat avatars and the string of comments you had made. He would have read about your concerns that energy suppliers would benefit from the roll-out, but would consumers? He probably saw that some of you wanted more reassurance about health concerns and data privacy. And I really hope he read Chris’ comment:
‘I see no real harm in the concept of a smart meter, it’s this use for that £11 billion I’m not keen on, especially as times are currently tough. It would buy an awful lot of insulation.’
It’s time to press pause on the roll-out
Now Which? has said to the government that we think it’s time to stop the roll-out. The government’s current strategy is flawed and it must review its approach. We want the government to convince us that it will have full control over the roll-out’s costs, as we all have to pay for it.
And, as it stands, the roll-out is far too industry led, with the government seemingly crossing its fingers in hope that suppliers will install 50 million smart meters into all of our homes in the most cost-effective and responsible way. The energy companies need to be reigned in.
So, what’s the smart way forward? Stop the smart meter roll-out, government, rethink and demonstrate that you are leading this, not big businesses. As always, let us know what you think. We are listening.
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wavechange
Very good news. Perhaps the next step could be to encourage Ofgem to deal with some of the problems that energy companies are causing their customers.
jonny
this is all very well & good, but do you not realise that these smart meters are going to need installation which means JOBS being created, & I am lucky enough to be one of those employed!
Jenny Driscoll
Hello Jonny
We do think that smart meters could help people, particularly in having accurate bills. But we are not convinced that the Government has a control over the costs. We need the roll-out to be cost-effective and so Which? wants the Government to stop, re-think and start again properly.
Dave D
Well done Jenny and all of your colleagues at Which? This is, I am very pleased to say, the first time I have felt that Which? has demonstrated without caveat that they have taken seriously the concerns expressed by so many on SmartMeters …. and it’s a great feeling!
It gives me a lot of hope that you will now really fight for consumers on this issue, and a little glimmer of hope that you will also fight for us on other issues that have raised Convo Contributors’ blood pressure to boiling point such as CFL lightbulbs and misleading energy rating labels, especially on items like Boilers and Washers.
Excellent news for the new year. Well done.
As for Jonny’s point: I certainly have huge sympathy for anyone who finds their job is at risk (and I’m very worried about my job at the moment too so I really do know how you feel Jonny) but let’s remember that meter fitters (which is presumably what Jonny is from his comments) should never be without work if the energy companies are going to maintain their meter stock properly, irrespective of the type of meter involved. If Which? are successful in getting the situation reviewed it should not have any significant impact on meter fitting work unless the energy companies are going to be even more irresponsible and just leave meters to wear out, give inaccurate readings, become unsafe and refuse to maintain them. Most of us who are against the current SmartMEter programme are in favour of SMartMEters eventually anyway: we just want them to be rather different and paid for from energy company profits rather than by bumping up fuel bills or using general taxation revenue.
All in all, if Which? is successful, this should be good news for EVERYONE.
Jenny Driscoll
Thanks for the comment Dave. The ‘cat’ has not gone unnoticed!
Wombat
After Which’s successful campaign at eliminating debit card fees and replacing them with more expensive admin fees, I’d have thought Which? would give us consumers a break by properly thinking through the full consequences of their actions before jumping in with both feet.
Nikki Whiteman
Hi Wombat, sorry if you feel like that’s what will happen as a result of the card fees campaign, but it’s not in any way what Which? is aiming for, and nor is it likely. The aim of the campaign was to stop customers being hit with ‘rip-off’ card fees right at the end of the transaction. The fees themselves were unrealistic (it actually costs just 20p to process a debit card transaction, and some airlines were charging up to £8). Some airlines might try to rename them ‘admin’ fees (Ryanair calls its current fee an ‘admin’ fee) but as a direct result of the campaign, these fees will no longer be hidden right at the end of the transaction – you’ll be able to see the prices up-front and compare the true cost of (for example) flights, rather than comparing headline figures that look cheap but are then loaded at the end with unavoidable extra costs.
If you want more detail on it, there’s a Convo on it here: http://conversation.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/mark-hoban-campaign-success-ban-credit-debit-surcharges/ A few people have raised similar worries in the comments, so it’s understandable that consumers are worried, but the ultimate result is that companies will have to include all costs up front, meaning consumers can compare the true cost of products. If a company wants to get more customers, they’ll have to bring down the overall cost of the product (or improve their product/service) rather than just ‘hiding’ certain elements of the total.
Dave D
Give Which? a chance!
I am not afraid of telling Which? when I think they have sold out but in the case of the fees whilst it is, I agree, fully predictable that retailers will try to find ways to get around the changes, that is for the Government to anticipate and prevent with the law, not for Which? to control.
The changes to surcharges and the move on Smart Meters are big successes for Which? and where praise is due it should not be tempered or overshadowed like this.
wavechange
I would like Which? to do more promotion of its successes, to raise awareness of consumer issues, get more subscribers to its publications and be able to fund investigation of more of the problems that so many of us spend our time moaning about. I believe that Which? should also acknowledge major contributions from other organisations pursuing the same objectives.
Nikki Whiteman
Thanks, wavechange! We try to do our best to show where we’ve had success, especially because usually it’s down to the help of lots of Which? campaign supporters. We posted this Convo recently which talks over a few of our key successes of the last year:
http://conversation.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/campaign-successes-wins-2011/
But we’re always looking for new ways to show people where they’ve really helped us make a difference.
David Ramsay
I too would add my congratulations to Which? in its request that the Government rethink the roll-out.
On a similar vein I recently sent a query to DECC and received the following Verbatim response (last para) which I will hold them to;
“The Government expects the mass roll out of smart meters to start in 2014 and to be completed in 2019. Smart meters will play a crucial role in delivering a low carbon economy. The roll out of smart meters will deliver £7.1bn net benefits to consumers, energy suppliers and networks. Domestic customers will be provided with near real-time information on energy consumption via their smart meter and in-home display, enabling them to monitor and manage their energy consumption, save money and reduce carbon emissions. Bills will be accurate and switching between suppliers will be smoother and faster. New products and services will be supported in a vibrant, competitive, more efficient market in energy and energy management.
While smart metering brings significant benefits, it will not be an offence for householders to refuse to accept a smart meter and we have made it clear that we do not expect suppliers to seek an entry warrant simply to fit smart metering equipment.”
… I have to admit the bulk of the above is the spin of the industry rather than the interest of the consumer!
Dave D
Excellent news in that last para – and very helpful that we have it verbatim and in the public domain. I too will certainly hold them to it.
For me this is the most crucial thing that is required: CHOICE.
Then those who welcome SM’s can have them, those who want jobs fitting them will be employed and those with worries can refuse them.
The next step with this specific point is to make sure that the most vulnerable and easily frightened in society understand that they have the choice and also to be certain that, UNLIKE water meters, if you move into a property with SM’s you can have them removed on demand.
A very positive step.
David Ramsay
I would also add that I am awaiting a response to my subsequent query;
“Can you inform me of what the problem will be if my neighbours equipment interferes with my health and/or wireless access point?”
… based on the implied answer from them re meters will not be forced on people and I do not have one installed.
wavechange
Many people worry about gas and electricity bills and although it is very easy to read meters, working out the cost of fuel since the last bill is difficult.
It would be good if we could enter our meter readings on a website to find the cost of gas and electricity used since the last bill. That could be set up even for those who do not manage their accounts online. I appreciate that it will not help those who do not have Internet access, but it could help many people. It would provide one of the key advantages of smart meters without the huge cost of installing them.
Encouraging people to enter meter readings regularly could help avoid poor estimates, another major problem for many people.
John Ward
The Cooperative Energy is getting there on this one. You can supply meter readings on line as often as you like and it tells you how this period’s average daily consumption compares with the previous period. I don’t think it does a price calculation but because they don’t have tiered rates [after the flat standing charge] it goives a good idea of how you’re going. They incentivise customers to supply monthly meter readings with Coop points.
Dave D
Full marks to the Co-Op.
I hope my own supplier (ecotricity) are reading thos and will follow suit.
What a simply wonderful idea!
wavechange
Thanks John. Maybe other companies will do the same and generally become more customer focused. Happier customers mean less staff to handle the complaints.
wavechange
I hope that energy companies are reading this forum, Dave. I have certainly mentioned Which? Conversation to e.on on more than one occasion. I am hopeful that they will become more customer focused because it is clear that they are keeping a record of my concerns.
Jenny Driscoll
As well as online help to manage your gas and electricity. Some of the suppliers are offering energy monitors – sometimes known as in-home display monitors. N.b. some people get these confused with smart meters. These monitors plug into your wall and pick up a signal from a clip which is attached to your the cable going to your electricity meter.
These can provide info such as hourly, daily and monthly electricity consumption and give you an idea of the cost (it is not likely to cover all of the extras that you have to pay on top of your electricity cost). Without a smart meter, these monitors will usually only measure electricity. The one I have also has a red, amber, green light to show, at a glance how much you are using. I understand that E.ON are (or have been) giving out free monitors. It may be worth getting in touch if you want to trial one.
rarrar
I have never really thought about the issue of cost and alternative use of the money before.
Ir is a powerful argument that even 50% of the cost would buy an awful lot of insulation for every home in the country and possibly enable more to be spent on insulating the more difficult homes.
Roll-out of smart meters which I do not believe will save much energy could be linked to the planned replacement of meters which occurs every ## years at present or at the request of the customer.
shadowside
Has anyone details of the £18.2 billion savings claimed by the minister. I suspect a large proportion of these will be claimed from “smart” meters goving consumers access to electricity consumption data.
I have a monitor I fitted myself for £20. Probably saves around 10% of electricity consumption. Purchased on a massive sacle they would cost maximum of £10 a throw. Probably less. For £300 million could be given to every home in UK.
what justifies the other £10.7 billion??
Jenny Driscoll
The Government is assuming that having a smart meter will result in us using less energy. Smart meters will also help to improve the energy infrastructure and should bring down costs for the suppliers etc which – hopefully – will be passed on to us. While smart meters may certainly help us to understand our gas and electricity and give us accurate bills (which we think will be a bonus), Which? thinks that it’s going too far to say that having a new meter will definitely result in savings. We need a lot of help to reduce energy as a nation eg improved insultation. The smart meters can play a role, but will they save billions???? Not on their own.
David Ramsay
@Jenny – you say “and should bring down costs for the suppliers etc which – hopefully – will be passed on to us” – perhaps Which? should challenge the government and regulator to insist that ALL savings are passed on to the consumer is it will be he/she who pays for the meters.
John Ward
I haven’t been following the Smart Meter topic diligently before now so apologies if my question has alrewady been covered. Am I right in thinking that the Smart Meter replaces the existing meter in the existing location? If that is the case I cannot see all that many people wanting to have one. Our modern house has the meters in recessed cabinets on the side wall accessible only from outside. Our relatives in a newer house have a gas meter outside in front of the house and an electricity meter hidden away at the back of a poky cupboard under the stairs. And in my mother-in-law’s old house in South London the meter is almost out of sight near the ceiling above the front door [electricity being a late arrival] and the gas meter is also high up in a passage requiring a step ladder to read it. These situations do not seem at all unusual. Do the authorities really think we are all going to clamber about checking our meters, or do the main supply meters transmit a signal to a monitor that can be positioned in a convenient place? If the latter is the case then the monitor should be capable of being programmed with the tariff formula [and ideally also up to three other tariff formulae from alternative supply companies] to produce useful data for the home economist. Perhaps this is how it’s all going to work and I should be very grateful for some information on the domestic practicalities.
Jenny Driscoll
The smart meters will replace the traditional ones and send a signal to a monitor. They could also even send your energy use to iphones etc. The monitor (or in-home display) should have information on your tariff and Which? also believes that the monitor/smart meter must help speed up switching.
David Ramsay
… and they will be capable of remote disconnection and be subject to hacking in due course.
They will also provide the companies with detail of usage which in turn will indicate when someone is at home – there being a security issue with some of this.
@Jenny – are you not putting the +ve situation ONLY and not providing the pros and cons in a balanced way, especially as John has said he hasn’t been following the whole conversatio(s) around smart metering.
Jenny Driscoll
We have flagged up this as a concern as well. Our view is that while smart meters can provide some benefits there are far too many concerns at the moment. Our main concern is that the Government haven’t got a grip over the costs but we also are telling government that there are many other areas for concern, including data privacy etc.
Steve
I can’t get my head round this smart meter thing; it seems to me that the only beneficiaries are the energy suppliers as they don’t have to pay for meter reading. So the cost should be borne only by them. There will be no cost savings for the consumer as far as I can see. I did borrow an energy monitor from the library once; it was a bit of fun for a day or two but they cannot save any energy costs, that comes down to common sense. We all know that if you turn on a switch it will cost you money and if you turn it off it will save you money. We also know that an appliance with a heater such as a kettle or oven will cost you more to run than, say, a light or a radio. Once we have insulated our homes properly, replaced light bulbs and other appliances with energy efficient ones and turned off anything not in use there is very little else we can do. Smart meters are of little help for the consumer.
wavechange
Steve – I gather that the main advantage of a smart meter (from the customers point of view) is to ensure accurate billing. I am sure there are much cheaper solutions.
I have to disagree with you about people understanding electricity consumption and turning off equipment that is not in use. I know many people who don’t have a clue and this is evident from messages posted on some of the Conversations (e.g. the person who restricted use of their radio to save electricity). Using a plug-in monitor that cost £9.99, I have found big differences between how much power equipment consumes in standby mode, even though I have had a good idea of what consumes most power since I was an inquisitive teenager who watched how fast the meter went round.
George Wood
Smart meters are relatively expensive if you take all costs into account in a roll-out programme, such as the fitments per household and the central collector devices.
The simple truth is that Ofgem and DECC should have analysed the roll-out costs thoroughly and then given an honest appraisal to all consumers and given them an option to decide whether they should be installed or not.
Its a bit like the HS2 programme, many other countries have them, so the UK does not want to be seen as ‘tail-end charlies’ in installing them. The Department of Energy considers we have the best ‘free-market’ in electricity in the world!!! Ha, Ha, pull the other one, nobody believes this!!!
Will it be cost effective? Quite simply NO!!!
What will it cost per household? It has to be of the order of at least £200 per household as part of the total package in real terms.
Who will pay. The house owner will pay either directly or through their bills.
Are there any benefits:
There are some tangible benefits such as:
Switching heavy load devices in the home to help the control of electricity supply in emergencies and be rewarded contractually,
Possibly advice when the market price is high so that they can take action to reduce their consumption and be rewarded contractually for taking such action.
Are these cost benefits ever going to save the consumer £200 per household or whatever the true cost per household is going to be, quite frankly I personally cannot see ever a beneficial cost recovery for the roll-out of smart meters.
I expect there will be spin about the renewable energy benefits and dubious costings, just as we have experienced in the roll-out of the wind-turbines, both on-shore and off-shore.
Everything seems to be write a blank cheque, the end consumers will pay.
How can this roll-out be stopped or delayed, I personally don’t believe it can. This programme has all ready been signed on to and just as with wind-turbines, there’s no stopping it.
Even if there were a vote, the questions would be rigged. I personally have lost all faith in the politicians looking at these issues pragmatically, its been decided we are going to do it, how can we dupe the consumers into believing there’s a benefit?
George Wood
ian
Economy 7 users currently have the night time rate until 08:30 in summer time (BST) because of the hour change, instead of 07:30 in winter. This is true of radio meters (controlled on national radio 4 long wave) and clock work meters, this is a benefit because a large amount of load is used getting ready for work using showers, boiling kettles etc, its not inconceivable that the supply companies could remove this with the introduction of smart meters because they could be programmed to be switched at 07:30 in summer
John Ward
This is interesting. I was informed by Southern Electric [on the telephone and with a lot of back-office discussion] that the night rate in our area [Norfolk] applied 24.00 – 06.30 in Summer and 23.30 – 07.30 in Winter. Neither of these spells is a seven hour period! It’s possible they got it the wrong way round and meant 23.30 – 06.30 [BST] and 24.00 – 07.00 [GMT] but this wouldn’t correspond to the change to the clocks [which go forward when Summertime begins] or with Ian’s understanding of the situation where the lower rate is available much later into the morning. What is the official authority for the Economy 7 tariff? Perhaps OFGEM or DECC holds the clue.
shadowside
In my youth I spent time as an investment analyst for one of the major oil companies. One of our often used phrases was “The base case is a straw man”. Many large projects were justified by comparing the situation after the project was implemented with the situation today. However detailed analysis often showed that most of the benefits could be obtained by spending only a small percent of the money. If the rest of the project was compared to the new base case it could not be justified.This was known as “The base case is a straw man”
Smart meters would appear to fall into this category as did the NHS computer project. Maybe Which could do the numbers for smart meters assumeing all households already have electrical energy monitors.
Simon Evans
It is not a question of stopping and rethinking the rollout, but of rethinking the concept. Many commenters have underlined to Which? the problems of utilities invading our houses with monitors, which will enable them, or others, to determine energy usage patterns in detail, with possible grave consequences. I see nothing in your comments to government about he fact that smart meters are in fact remotely controlled power switches, which can ultimately give electricity companies the power to control appliances in the home (when “smart” appliances start appearing). I see nothing about the hugely expensive and poorly designed home area networks, which are a bonanza for the tech companies but replace Internet connections quite unnecessarily. Weren’t you listening to anything anyone said on these subjects? Did you notice that a segment of the population is worried about the very presence of wireless networks in their houses? And, lastly, had you not noticed that the claimed £7.1bn savings are pie in the sky, based on unrealistic and untested assumptions about the effect smart meters will have on power consumption. It seems that Which? has swallowed the government line on smart meters and not been nearly critical enough.
Disappointing.
David Ramsay
Hi Simon,
I think that the change as far as Which? is concerned is that they now have taken on board many of our points.
I agree that the savings are likely to be pie in the sky as no one knows what the future will bring.
I posted earlier a response from DECC which I had in which it was clearly stated that you will not be forced to have a smart meter. I do of course appreciate that the companies may therefore attempt to coerce you into having one by putting you on a tariff which is detrimental.
Here then is Which? s next challenge to ensure that people who do not want smart meters are NOT disadvantaged.
wavechange
The main thing is that Which? is in contact with the government and pushing for a review of plans for the roll-out. It is important to save the huge cost of installing smart meters.
I would not be surprised if energy companies encourage us to have smart meters fitted by offering cheaper tariffs. You don’t have to have a Tesco Clubcard, but most people prefer to pay less and let Tesco have a lot of data.
David Ramsay
@wavechange – Having a Tesco Clubcard doesn’t reduce the price of anything, all it does is earn you 1p (0.5p on petrol) for every pound you spend. You then get vouchers to exchange in Tesco to the value of your points every 3 months or so. So the money remains with Tesco.
What Tesco get is what the individual lets them have – history of purchases – and only then if the card is offered.
With Smart Meters you will be providing the data even if you do not want the companies to have that data. I do not see why the data could not be kept locally and that which I need to pay my bill released when I want to – hey its a bit like reading the meter and entering the data via the internet or phone.
The data being kept locally could still have the relevant tariffs updated by the utility so that you have real time detail of the cost of use and thus you can save by using the meters if you wish.
You don’t have to send this data at all to the company, indeed the meter could be so smart that it issues your bill directly to you and copy the supplier with the consumption.
LETS GET PARANOID: is it not feasible that the real reason they want these meters in place is that the government know they will be running out of power in the 2nd half of this decade and being able to switch off ones supply remotely will allow them to do phased power cuts – remember those?
The real reason the power companies want them is that they know no one will really reduce consumption and they gain solely by not having meter readers (which I rarely see these days anyway) straight saving to bottom line with the consumer (idiot punter) paying the cost of installation.
wavechange
Yes, David, I know how the Tesco Clubcard system works and when you present the vouchers you pay less. No need to split hairs.
I’ve recently suggested that putting meter readings into a website could help people keep a track of the cost of their fuel consumption. Let’s not get paranoid but look for simple, inexpensive ways of achieving the benefits of smart meters without the need to install them.
I do remember the power cuts in the 1970s. Perhaps the only benefit is that it encouraged people not to waste electricity. We could save a lot of power by switching off lights in unoccupied public buildings, for a start.
George Wood
Jenny,
Congratulations for attempting to bring a sense of reason to the roll-out of smart meters.
However, just like the issues with wind-turbines, where DECC is doing its damdest to convince the mass public that they save carbon emmissions and therefore are renewable energy. Well as more and more of these monstrocities are built the less the very efficient designed power stations as convertors of gas, coal and oil to electrical energy are utilised. These power stations have to remain in situ to supply regulating and back up reserves for the defficiencies of wind turbines. The resultant being that the carbon emmissions of these very efficient generators increase per unit of output and if you look at the BIG PICTURE, there is no resultant carbon emmissions savings. Therefore the wind-turbines, as a whole, have not resulted in any renewable energy benefits and yet they are blighting our beautiful countrysides and sea shores everywhere. What a total waste of time and space with the probable resultant that our electricty bills will have more than doubled when the roll-out completes.
What has this got to do with smart meters? Well actually quite a lot, it is the very same DECC that are pushing these developments and they seem to have been infiltrated by the same woolly thinkers as that for wind turbines, that we must have these smart meters just to be up to date. Well its a very costly up-to-date policy and the end payer will be the consumer, no matter what.
I evaluated such proposals for David Jefferries, retired chairman of National Grid, and concluded that there was no overall benefit to the consumer and now here we have the Department of Energy and Climate Change effectively mandating that every consumer will have to have a smart meter.
Dont be fooled, they are duping the public into believing their will be an overriding benefit, there will not and it will cost each and every consumer of the order of £200 for practically no return.
George Wood, retired senior technical and economic consultant, National Grid
David Ramsay
George,
Many thanks for that in-sight, seems to me the question is “Why do we need smart meters at all?”.
After all with the number of redundant/unemployed you could get them to read the meters whilst on Job Seekers allowance, gets them out and about, gives them exercise, contributes to society.
Benefit all round and the same saving for the utilities and a massive £11BN saving from everyones pocket!
George Wood
We dont need smart meters, there is a saving by reducing meter readers but I noticed a security company is being deployed in South Warwickshire to read the meters, so why not optimise by the same group reading water and gas as well which would make meter reading far cheaper. I the roll-out bill is £11-billion, that would be £550 per household with an assumption of 20-million homes.
How can this cost be justified and who would pay the bill.
This is the very conclusion that I made to David Jefferies in the 1990′s when I was asked to assess a possible way of introducing smart meters, i.e. not justifiable.
David Ramsay
The cost may well be dependent on the number of meters as well. I suspect that the cost is going to be between £250-300 per meter, so where you have a home with standard, eco7 and gas their notional cost could well be over £ 1000 since one unknown cost is the installation of the HID.
BTW as the expected cost reduction is based on having a functional HID did you examine the cost of replacement since I understand that there will only be a one year warranty, while you were making your recommendations?
wavechange
In addition to smart meters for electricity, we could have smart meters monitoring our use and gas, electricity and water, and maybe even doing a time and motion survey to measure how much waste we produce. For the last time – no thanks.
Patrick Steen
I thought you might be interested in some of the responses to our call for a rethink of the smart meter roll-out.
Gearóid Lane, managing director of British Gas New Markets, has told the Telegraph:
‘Our customers have told us loud and clear about how they are benefiting from smart meters. Smart meters put an end to the frustration of estimated bills, give customers more direct control over their energy use and open the door to new energy saving technologies. There is more to smart meters than just cost savings, and any slowdown of this crucial investment will frustrate energy customers.’
Charles Hendry, the energy minister, has said: ‘As Which? themselves reported last week, the major cause of complaints to energy companies is poor and inaccurate billing. Smart meters will mean more accurate information and an end to estimated billing – so no more nasty surprises for consumers.
‘The benefits of smart meters are £18.1 billion for an £11 billion investment – that’s a £7 billion net benefit to the nation, and we want to realise it sooner rather than later.’
Again Hendry MP told the BBC: ‘The introduction of smart meters will unlock huge benefits for the UK, and the coalition government has published detailed plans showing how we will deliver this. The last thing we need is more dither and delay. We are determined to take the scheme forward, with ministerial oversight and safeguards for consumers built in.’
wavechange
That’s fine if people are happy with their smart meters, but who has paid for them to be installed? The cost will have probably be met mainly by those who don’t have a smart meter.
David Ramsay
Could I please have direct access to the MD British Gas New Business and Charles Hedry;
I want from them detailed documentation to support;
1. That the people using the meters currently have been told exactly what these meters are capable of including remote disconnect, who paid for the meter installation for those people.
2. I want from Charles Hendry a detailed worked business case showing how the introduction of the meters will benefit to the extent indicated in his statement.
I am not stupid and I agree with George Wood who is probably closer to the situation than the ministers and industry bodies, there is a con going on here and they are lying to justify the introduction.
Can I repeat the minister is LYING unless he can justify the savings fully – let him prove to me and I will back down.
Anon the mouse
There are already proof of concept hacks for Smart Meters. Accurate enough to detect what you are using and even what you are watching on the TV.
http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2012/01/08/28c3-smart-meter-hacking-can-disclose-which-tv-shows-and-movies-you-watch/
That security hole would cost about £10 to fix. Do you really think they will secure your smart meter?
On top of that all houses will effectively be on a insecure network, with no antivirus, firewall, or IDS. One simple “hack” later and all the lights in Birmingham go out.
George Wood
The mind boggles in whay Charles Hendry has quoted, £18.1 billion savings, thats an incredible £900 per household, my electricity bill all though having doubled is less than £500 which I hope to reduce to under £300, how could I or the majority of people benefit from a staggering £900. If we take a 10% cost of borrowing , that would still be nearer to £100 per annum.
These politicians dream these numbers up out of thin air just to spin their determination to implement this roll-out scheme. As I quoted in an earlier post, DECC are attempting to dupe the common sense public, just like wind-turbines and HS2.
We have become a dictatorial country led by politicians without substance.
David Ramsay
I agree, however, if we do not have detailed worked business case then we do not know the timescales involved in this, it could be over half a century or more.
I think they are lying to force this through parliament and onto the populace.
Jenny Driscoll
I’m not going to try to translate the Government’s proposals re potential savings for customers, so here’s what DECC has to say (the Department of Energy and Climate Change co-ordinating the roll-out). I’ve also added links to their website with a lot more facts and figures etc:
“Consumers will have real time information on their energy consumption to help them control energy use, save money and reduce emissions. By 2020, the average consumer (with both electricity and gas) is expected to save around £23 per year on their energy bill as a result of smart metering. There will also be an end to estimated billing.
“Suppliers will have access to accurate data for billing, allowing them to improve their customer service and reduce costs, for example by reducing call centre traffic, ending visits by meter readers, and better debt management.”
http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/tackling/smart_meters/smart_meters.aspx
http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/news/pn11_032/pn11_032.aspx
David Ramsay
You all might like to note the following – Chris Huhne will be involved live!
http://www.which.co.uk/campaigns/energy-and-environment/affordable-energy-campaign/your-energy-questions-answered/
wxilt
It occurs to me that the debate here would be very different if consumers owned and controlled their smart meters and the information that flows from them. As well as the touted benefits (accurate bills, knowing which appliances are costing you the most and might be switched off) .. as well as these (perhaps) uncertain benefits, owning the meter might mean switching suppliers would be very much easier:
1. Call favourite comparison site;
2. Give them access to your consumption data;
3. Take the best quote;
4. Let the smart meter system handle the rest…..
Perhaps not as sexy as a Virgin or Sky HD set top box, but I wouldn’t mind investing in a smart meter if it gave me control of my supplier ………….. rather than the other way around.
David Ramsay
I agree totally, I think however, that whoever owns the meter is immaterial, you should be in control of YOUR personal data (consumption), you should be able to hold that data locally to the metering and release a subset to whomever you wish to.
As for the other apparatus within the meter – remote disconnect for one – then it should be up to you whether this is enabled or not, that includes smart equipment. You should be able to control the features you want to allow. You should have a secure password access which no one can override.
There is no reason why all your data cannot be stored locally, the energy companies should be able to dump their variable tariffs down to the meter and then the meter should be able to calculate and then to upload your bill for onward transmission to you from the utility company involved.
Actually lets go one step forward, the bill should be sent to the DECC appointed middleman who can then issue the exact bill and send the correct amount to the utility company (after deducting a small fee).
What I want to know tho is how they are going to cope with people who pay monthly and pay a regular fee over the year on the basis that summer consumption is lower than winter and it balances out.
Don’t forget tho that you will require one meter per source of energy et al.
Simon Evans
A tangential point concerns those in social housing. Many of these people are disabled, extremely poor, or both. The government has announced a programme (spearheaded by Martha Lane Fox) to get them, and others onto the internet. It strikes me as madness that smart meters, with their attendant computer networks, are to be foisted on these people (who may well have little ability to refuse them) and yet the network connection will not allow them to do something far more beneficial than read their meters: access the internet. The cost of putting the ten million or so non-users online is a small fraction of £11bn. I am sure Lane Fox would drool at that sort of budget, which would bring a (social and financial) dividend far in excess of £7bn. And we all know that the £7bn to be made from smart meters is smoke and mirrors.
Chris, Gloucester
Nice to know previous comments were actually read.
I refer to my comment that £11 billion would buy an auful lot of insulation.
However despite “which” adjusting their position on these so called smart meters I feel the new “Which” policy perhaps does not address the fundamental.
“Which” now seem to be saying “hold a review before rolling out these things, make sure costs are controlled, make sure the roll out is Government lead rather than industry lead”.
Well, certainly a step in the right direction but from my reading of the comments left on the previous conversation should we not be asking the fundamental question “are these things really any use at all” ? “Should the whole initiative not be cancelled altogether”?
Shouldn’t we rather be saying hold a review to clearly establish real benefits for this major expense (if any and whoever ends up paying) before going any further, and could that money be better spent elsewhere? Like, to repeat myself, free insulation for all?
Initiatives like these smart meters tend to take on a momentum of their own. In this case Government, energy suppliers and even some of the populous have become resigned to it happening in one form or another, at one cost or another, with the bill footed by someone or other, and this may well take place before any real value for money need or benefit has been properly established, if there is one. I’m certainly not convinced.
My own view is that any information available to the consumer which might enable them to stop energy wastage or reduce consumption will enjoy a brief honymoon/novelty period before no one takes any notice and we’re no better off than before (than now). Trouble is by then someone will have wasted £11 billion that could have been far better spent elsewhere.
David Ramsay
I agree, it is up to us to keep the pressure on to ensure the correct questions are asked.
As I posted earlier perhaps we could pose those questions to Chris Huhne – http://www.which.co.uk/campaigns/energy-and-environment/affordable-energy-campaign/your-energy-questions-answered/
Tom Hall
I have a smart meter installed and am a tenant in flat, I am a student on a minimum wage internship living on my own in a city 250 miles from my family and am on a very low income.
My so called ‘smart’ reader has in the last three months been spiking electricity from 8am to 11am when I am at work and even when I have been away from the flat for two weeks with all appliances turned off at the power source.
I am with first-utility and have been unable to convince them that an 8x increase in consumption is un-explainable and will cost me £120 to test the meter.
I am locked in a vicious circumstance where I can’t afford increased bills or to test the meter.
They are a joke and should be banned.
David Ramsay
Have you turned the power off where it enters your flat. I think that you need to make sure no power is actually getting into your flat.
Have you checked the wiring around the meter to see if there is some extra wiring? You might like to find a friendly electrician.
If it is a smart meter then there should be historical data available from your electricity company, you should be able to gain access to that on request as that is what they say you can do.
If you can get that and also have proof you were not there in those two weeks then you might have a chance.
However, as you seem to be saying it is a regular occurrence it might be that someone else is using your power!
Tom Hall
There is no access to the meter as its a large block of flats on a new build and im the first tenant, I’ve been there six months now, first three months there were no large spikes only starting in month three.
Also the serial numbers match up on multiple meter readings with the serial number the electric supplier has on their records.
David Ramsay
Ah since it is a new build I suggest you get the builders involved as you could have faulty wiring and there may be a risk of fire. In any case the meter usage is less than a year so go for it on the guarantee!
You might like to check on when the meter was actually purchased and installed, the problem tho is not yours on a new build.
Jenny Driscoll
Really interested to hear from anyone who has a smart meter.
Jenny
Tom hall
Update on my situation, since writing this I have been in constant argument with the electricity company, in February I was away for a week and a half with a fridge and freezer being the only appliances on, I was sent a bill for £129 at 1000Kw/H.
Being a lone tenant who works 9-5 and only being in the flat for 19 days this is clearly wrong, I emailed the company to say I had withdrawn my direct debit and as of writing this 30 days later I have not even had a response.
Going well….
Tom
wxilt
With due respect to the valid concerns expressed here and elsewhere, I would suggest that smart meters are inevitable.
I reckon everyone interested in this debate wants to know how much energy consumers use. Whether you are:
+ a consumer, wishing to switch or how to reduce your consumption, or
+ government wishing to put together some sort of coherent energy policy, or
+ somebody interested in reducing reliance on fossil fuels, or
+ a supplier wanting to know how much to charge your customer.
The current standard of meter simply doesn’t do this well enough. If you want to begin to consume more intelligently you need to have a better idea about what you are consuming.
The trick here is to make this a *consumer led* change. (It is easy to forget in this day and age that the companies are here to serve us rather than the us kowtowing to the mighty brand).
So I think the best way to use Which? and this resource is to come up with a list of ‘smart meter system’ features that would be in the interest of the consumer.
Perhaps the following are already incorporated into the plans for Smart Meter – maybe the experts reading this will confirm?
*Competition*
+ Owning a smart meter cannot tie you to a supplier;
+ All smart meters should comply with a basic standard that allows interoperability between all suppliers;
+ The industry should commit to rapid and simple switching between suppliers;
+ Smart meters cannot be used by suppliers to reduce competition.
*Data Protection*
+ The data you provide belongs to the consumer;
+ Suppliers, have the right to collect only that data needed to bill accurately – the rest is at the discretion of the consumer;
+ Consumers can make their data available to 3rd parties – it should be easy to do and inexpensive.
David Ramsay
Regrettably although your points are well argued, this is why we are so vociferous. The data is NOT regarded as ours and I suspect that the utilities will seek to sell it just like the DVLA does.
You have also not touched on the Data Security aspects as the network involved will actually pass through our neighbours meters for onward transmission, nor have you touched on the health aspects of the metering.
The requirements are available online and make very interesting reading try – http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/consultations/cons_smip/cons_smip.aspx
One last thing, they are NOT inevitable, DECC have assured me that they do not expect utilities to seek a warrant to enter to fit the metering. So it is up to YOU, if you want one then have one, me I will go down fighting all the way.
George Wood
You are probably right that smart meters are an inevitable application.
I dont agree with them because of the cost.
There are some helpful uses that a smart meter can do but the benefits will never outweigh the costs.
Take the switching of devices, such as your refridgerator, freezer, immersion heater, etc, if these are switched for load management purposes then the appliances will all have to be hard-wired in some way, even if a wireless connection is involved to avoid the hard-wiring between the meter and the appliance. This will all cost additional money, over and above the £11-billion roll-out scheme. What would it cost just to have an electrician in to fit the meter? I believe Chris Huhne is saying that this cost will be the responsibility of the consumer. And who do you think the cost of the meter will actually fall on. Well again its back to the consumer because it will be factored in the electricity bill.
What will be totally unfair is that the tariff charges for those who cant afford to pay for a meter installation will be higher. Yes, I understand there has to be a differential tariff for with and without meter reading requirements but you can bet your bottom dollar that the differentials will be so significant that we are all forced to have smart meters even though a cost justification cannot in reality be made.
Please believe me, that I carried out such an assessment back in the mid 1990′s when David Jeffries NG Retd Chairman, had been on a business trip to New Zealand and realised that they had smart meters installed and we the UK did not. Canada and probably many other countries have a totality of smart meter installations. Well the cost benefit analysis cannot justify this roll-out!!!. So why do it?
Our country is becoming a dictator state, there is no freedom of choice.
Chris, Gloucester
George Wood is correct.
Whilst smart meters will I’m sure “function” technically as intended what real benefits are there to justify the £11 billion expendature?
And could that money be better used elsewhere to achieve the same goal? That being reduced energy consumption.
I say yes it could be better spent elsewhere to get a far “bigger bang for your buck”.
Because we can have smart meters doesn’t mean we must or should.
Because other countries have them doesn’t mean we must or should.
Why not make use of the experience of other countries to establish if there are really any benefits?
Why not do a study to see if better energy economies can be achieved by spending that £11 billion differently?
Not unreasonable to prove a benefit (if there really is one) before stumping up £11 billion
Chris, Gloucester
wxit,
Why are smart meters inevitable?
If no real cost effective benefit can be established why do it?
Herd mentality?
shadowside
Another aspect to this debate is the huge difference between electricity and gas metering.
Electricity consumption is in real time and detailed knowledge of consumption MAY if the consumer is interested influence behaviour.All that is needed however is a monitor and there is no need to go anywhere near the meter.
Gas consumption is a whole different ball game. The three key varaibles are the thermal efficiency of the boiler,the thermal efficiency of the house and the desired temperature. Smart metering effects these not one jot.
Jenny Driscoll
LATEST ON SMART METERS
Today the Public Accounts Committee published a report on smart meters. They said that the programme is “subject to significant uncertainty” and questioned whether consumers will benefit saying, “…the evidence on whether they will do so has been inconclusive.”.
Here are the full details:
http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/public-accounts-committee/news/smart-meters-report/
Chris, Gloucester
So previous “which” position, in that you broadly believed smart meters would be beneficial not supported by this latest Public Accounts Committee report?
Well, I agree with the Public Accounts Committee. I have seen no evidence to date that supports the view that smart meters are a good cost effective benefit providing idea. I’ve only seen “opinion” from those who think they know better that smart meters are the way to go.
So Jenny where do we go from here?
Shouldn’t the fundamental question be “should we go for smart meters or not” be the only question, at least initially?
Things like cost, who pays, who controls or drives rollout are important, but I’d suggest secondary until the fundamental is addressed?
Simon Evans
The EU has set a requirement for “intelligent metering” of 80% of meters by 2020. The EU does not, however, require remote control of consumers’ power supply. Discussion of this topic therefore breaks down into: do we allow power companies to read our meters remotely and, separately, do we allow them to switch our power off at their discretion. If the answer to the first question is yes but to the second no (a likely outcome) then we can see smart metering with different eyes. Intelligent metering could be achieved in any of the many ways described by others here without the need for a separate network sending continuous readings back to the supplier. The main reason behind the EU requirement is so that consumers are billed accurately, not so that power companies can snoop and disconnect remotely.
We are at risk here of falling into the ID card trap. ID cards were a good idea for many. Their downfall came because the government insisted on linking them to the invasive, creepy and unnecessary National Identity Register, which would record usage of the cards and be open to scrutiny by police and MI5 without the cardholder being told.
Smart meters on their own may be a good idea for some, especially if the readings are sent economically over the internet. Remote power switches are not on, and I suspect the power companies know this, which is why they avoid mentioning them.
Modest savings are undoubtedly there from remote reading (reducing the cost of reading, and improving cash flow by billing more often). Savings from reduced voluntary consumption will be minimal. Savings from enforced reduction in consumption, by remote disconnection, could be huge, because they enable capital expenditure on new generating plant to be deferred.
David Ramsay
@Simon – you have read the Smart Meter specifications and read the EU requirements then.
I agree totally, but why are smart meters required to do this at all?
I can either use the internet to update my reading on-line either by request or more frequently if I wish OR I can use my phone to enter the meter reading in the same fashion and receive a paper bill.
The EU want accurate bills – why? I don’t have a problem with accuracy only the stupidity of the utilities reducing my monthly payment in summer and then increasing in winter when what I want is any credit balance returned to me in late spring and for the same payment to continue to build up a surplus for next winter.
The bl…y EU should keep its nose out.
BTW In answer to the first question – “do we allow power companies to read our meters remotely” the answer to that is still NO. It is my data they can have it once a month on request and I would allow the meter to send it – indeed the meter should be programmable by myself to set the frequency of upload.
In any case as the meters will be using the wireless band then I have ways of preventing their operation – Jamming or Faraday Cage or even removing the power supply to them.
George Wood
Simon
So the responsibility of putting in expensive metering in these austerity times is the EU controlled by Germany. They get the cheapest borrowing rates and the poorest countries are having to pay the highest loan rates. If the practice of having to meet the laughable ‘so-called’ renewable energy requirements (and wind-turbines in the UK offer no carbon saving in the total analysis) and now ‘smart meters’ have all been engineered by Germany, are you not suspicious of their motives, particularly as many German companies are the benefactors. What with these targets and then the new transmission and distribution requirements to facilitate the wind-turbine developments the expenditure just for the UK will be at least £50-billion, this is on top of the European monetary crises. I am very, very suspicious of these targets.
George Wood
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Simon Evans
Blaming the EU for our problems is unproductive, after all we are a significant part of the EU. Contrary to what the British media say, the EU is not run by the Germans and French for their own benefit but is a genuine collaborative effort. Smart metering is not about generation but consumption, and only addresses generation in the sense that better power management can reduce the need for generating capacity.
The DECC requirements appear over the top compared to the base line established by the EU, which has taken on board the numbers of complains, throughout the EU, about inaccurate estimated bills and the need for power suppliers to get a better handle on billing and consumption.
The EU discussion document talks about remote supply management (either disconnection or load limiting) but does not, as I read it, say it is necessary. It is one of a list of features that is possible. I found the relevant EU document here: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=EU+smart+metering+reg&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
I would have to say that the EU and the DECC are both guilty of using the term “smart meter” when they mean “remotely controlled power switch and meter”
George Wood
Simon, as you may have read, I evaluated this process more than 15-years ago and I can only see one real benefit in putting in smart energy meters and that is to save the errors and the labour charges of meter readers. Putting smart meters in will not really educate the general public, other than if the half hourly market mechanism predicts the prices of electricity and that is made available to the consumers so that they can react to these prices and either switch off or switch on as the case may be. This could result in some serious balancing problems for the grid operator and therefore I do not think such a market interaction will be offered through the smart meter roll-out applications. Load management could be a contractable facility (I originally set-up these market arrangements for Large Demand-Users way back in 1990 to 2001) so that the market can react to Supplier signals for some type of specialised tariff.
All of this begs the question, is it worth it? My belief is that it isnt worth the gamble to spend £11-billion, which will more than likely turn out to be $22-billion, to most probably not get any financial return and this step should not be taken without some serious interaction with the ‘life-blood’ general consumers agreement.
Why isnt this put to the vote with honest arbitors raising the pro’s and cons.
I admit that I am not up to speed with reading all the DECC’s arguments but I did read the initial ‘smart metering’ proposals and was in sheer disbelief at their overstated arguments.
Quite frankly, I do not believe there is any real overall monetary benefit to having smart metering and I have likened it to the wind-turbine philosophies spouted by DECC of which there are so many untruths about renewable energy, which in the main is causing electricity bills to double, and offering no actual climate change savings in CO2 reductions, that I dont believe there is any genuiness in the comments made by DECC, just spin. I have actually offered Chris Huhne and DECC directly, and through my local MP, for me to set-up a totally unbiased team and carry out truthful predictions on these issues but he has not even had the courtesy to reply. That to me speaks volumes.
Simon Evans
George, I don’t think we disagree. Remote meter reading is not that big a deal, and the rest of ther smart meter programme is hogwash.
David Ramsay
@George – Perhaps you should do this live tomorrow afternoon direct to Chris Huhne on-line between 14:30 and 15:00 – http://www.which.co.uk/campaigns/energy-and-environment/affordable-energy-campaign/your-energy-questions-answered/?altcast_code=d0edb0e6be
He would find it difficult to avoid especially if you also post the query at the same time so that everyone knows he has been asked and he ducked the offer – which I expect he would as it doesn’t fit with his agenda.
David Ramsay
oops 14:30 to 15:30
George Wood
I will attempt to contact Geoff Huhne live because he has not responded to my offer to carry out a rigorous analysis to get to the bottom of the the carbon benefit/or not that wind-turbines bring inevitably any reduction in carbon saving will decrease and probably there will be an increase as the total number of wind-turrbines increase and also the impossible carbon saving target to reach 50% reduction from all UK’s fuel consumptions by 2050. If it is possible to squeeze in some questions about the roll-out of smart meters it would be useful to challenge him on that front.. For your info, I am trying to get funding to carry out unbiased appraisals of both these issues and have contacted some former colleagues to assist in this matter. This was the very request made to Goeff Huhne to which he has not replied. I am sure I could put a team together at a miniscule costs in comparison to the overall costs of wind-turbine developments and smart meters roll out.
Dave D
Having just hear the National Grid Spokesman on BBC Radio 4 news telling us that the reason £25m was spent last year to pay wind turbine operators to shut down their turbines in windy weather is: BECAUSE THE NATIONAL GRID IS TOO FRAIL TO COPE WITH THE HIGH AMOUNT OF ELECTRICITY THAT WOULD BE FED IN I suggest very strongly that Which? campaign to use the money that was ear-marked for Smart Meters, which it seems just about everyone has grave doubts about in one form or another, to upgrade the National Grid so that when green and renewable energy sources are generating power it can actually be used, rather than disconnected.
No wonder our carbon reduction targets are never within reach if the infrastructure cannot actually handle the power they produce.
Certainly one in the eye for all those who keep trying to tell us that wind farms don’t have the capacity to generate enough energy to make a difference.
David Ramsay
Wow – that is a very stupid excuse, if the grid capacity is too weak then the wind farms there shouldn’t have been built.
Perhaps you might like to ask the Huhne this afternoon at 14:30 why?
wavechange
If the National Grid cannot cope with the output of wind turbines in windy weather, then I may have seriously underestimated what they can contribute towards our needs. But if they can’t be used when it’s windy and they don’t contribute much when it’s not, then where do we stand.
I tend to take the reliability of our electricity supply for granted, but maybe I should dig out the old camping stove and candles in case of power cuts. I wonder how many CFLs I could run from a car battery.
John Ward
Historically the bulk of our electrical power has been generated in the midlands near the coalfields and supplied to industry and conurbations well away from the coastal fringes. The transmission network gets more and more threadbare as it approaches the outer and coastal areas [like north Norfolk] where the windfarms are feeding in. Perversely, of course, electricity demand is very much lower – and falling – in such parts. So, if we are going to really benefit from off-shore wind-power then the grid needs to be strengthened massively in the fringe regions so it can cope with the demand from the big cities. Even the coastal nuclear generating stations have very little spare capacity in their transmission systems to handle the amount of power potentially generated off-shore so a whole new inland infrastructure is having to be developed. Meanwhile, while we ponder this, rake around for some money to pay for it, and argue over every turbine, pylon and transformer-station, the wind blows and we can’t use it. And £11bn is squandered on a pointless exercise in metering. It would make more sense to spend this money on an effective education system.
George Wood
David D,
National Grid are correct that at times the amount of power that can be transferred from Scotland to England from wind-turbines has to be limited because of the rating capacity of the transmission lines that link the two countries electrically. These times are usually at night or on bank holidays and some weekends when the Scottish demand is low because everybody is asleep and their industries are closed down. However, it is fact that at times of strong winds 12 m/s and above the wind-turbine farms reach there maximum output. National Grid have had approval to upgrade their electrical transmission capacity for this very purpose to the tune of £17-billion. These costs and the carbon footprint for these transmission connections should be factored entirely against wind turbines for they are the cause. The smart meter cost roll out is in addition to this as I posted earlier. Therefore in this debate which is about the smart meter roll-out, please just focus on that in which I believe you are intimating that the £11-billion would be better spent elsewhere. I agree with you on that point if it is to be put to good use creating additional wealth to get our poorer people into work, particularly in manufacturing.
Regarding your statement about wind-turbines being renewable green energy, well thats very debateable, if the build of standby generation, low operating load factors on other conventional generators causing lower efficiencies and more CO2 emissions per MW, I have serious doubts that there is any carbon savings overall. I have offered Chris Huhne to set up an unbiased team to evaluate this and he has not even had the courtesy to reply.
All-in-all, I think the strategies of the roll-out of smart-meters, smart grids and wind turbines are not justified and will end up costing us double for our electricity consumption for no material gain. I am more than willing to research this and be proven wrong but it would take some monetary resources which I dont have.
julia
WHICH has covered the cost implications of smart meters admirably, but in your Q&A you state that ‘so far there is no medical evidence to suggest that smart meters are unsafe’. As these meters transmit a wifi signal 24/7 to a distance of around 200 metres, this is clearly not the case. The World Health Organisation has classified this form of radiofrequent radiation as a 2B carcinogen (may cause cancer); the Council of Europe (47 member states) have called for a ban of this form of radiation for children – not to mention the wealth of studies from independent scientists showing harmful effects. Check http://www.radiationresearch.org for information.
Further, in the States since meters have been installed, many people have been suffering headaches, sleep problems, heart disease and further health problems.
David Ramsay
Can I point out that the transcript URL published on – http://www.which.co.uk/campaigns/energy-and-environment/affordable-energy-campaign/your-energy-questions-answered/?altcast_code=2f542b293c- for yesterdays chat points to a ‘retail discussion’ and not that from yesterday 17th Jan
Nikki Whiteman
Sorry David – thanks for pointing that out! I’ll get it fixed asap.
David Ramsay
Just in case here are the questions I submitted for this afternoons discussion with Chris Huhne;
I understand that it is expected that a total of £18 billion will be saved and there will be an outlay to implement smart meters of about £11BN. Given the size and complexity of this rollout is the Minister prepared to publish the detailed business case for this because frankly I think it is hogwash and requires independent scrutiny?
If I refuse to have a meter installed will the Minister confirm that I will not be disadvantaged by my decision?
Given the fact that Smart Meters will use wireless technology what does the Minister intend to do when there are reports of increased illness due to the radiation? (For info see http://www.radiationresearch.org)
If I refuse to have a meter installed but my neighbours do and due to those installations my or wifes health suffers what will the Minister put in place to remove the health effects?
Given the fact that these meters may provide me with a benefit why can they not be engineered to allow all my data to be stored locally, the energy companies should be able to dump their variable tariffs down to the meter and then the meter should be able to calculate and then to upload your bill for onward transmission to you from the utility company involved. This will still allow display of consumption and cost and the user can take advantage for themselves. Surely this is preferable?
I want to have control of access to the meters, if they are installed, secured by username/password such that only I can access. Will the Minister instruct DECC to alter the specification to allow locking down by the householder? (Just in case a physical reset button could be provided on the meter in the event of the person moving).
Why do the Smart Meters have a remote disconnect option when clearly the security of the devices means that people could be randomly disconnected. This is dangerous for the Young, Elderly and infirm who rely on continuous power?
I have received in the past comments that we must have a balanced energy supply industry which includes Wind Farms, given the fact that they are an eyesore and require backup of Gas/Coal or Nuclear why is it that wind is preferred over Nuclear or Wave all of which at production are zero carbon?
George Wood
Hi David, at least you received this reply, well done, but Chris Huhne refers you back to his economists and data on the DECC website. I am certain that you read the DECC website on smart meters anyway.
Chris Huhnes reply to you:
Hi David Ramsay. On smart metres, we have published the economic impact assessment and indeed updated ones. So the details of those calculations are out on the website. Happy to field any particular points if you are still unconvinced when you have read them. In fact, I do wish more researchers would come in to Decc and talk to our economists before putting out fruitcake forecasts.
What about the “fruitcase forecast comment”.
George Wood
David Ramsay
@George – Personally I feel he was getting a little annoyed, each of the questions above were separately submitted so I probably failed as I wanted answers to the more serious aspects of health etc.
I feel that my point;
“Given the fact that these meters may provide me with a benefit why can they not be engineered to allow all my data to be stored locally, the energy companies should be able to dump their variable tariffs down to the meter and then the meter should be able to calculate and then to upload your bill for onward transmission to you from the utility company involved. This will still allow display of consumption and cost and the user can take advantage for themselves. Surely this is preferable?”
… should have been addressed as this puts ownership back into the consumers domain and due to the number of questions … Anyway I still feel after looking for the update “impact assessment” which in reality is nearly 1 year old that it really doesn’t present a business case, I wonder if a bank would accept it in the current economic climate.
Fruitcake – I think when a politician drops down to this level of argument he doesn’t have a cogent response. As a result I still feel they are intent on railroading the populace.
Actually if they were to introduce a smart meter as I suggested above I would be less anti.
On top of that they need to link the system via ‘wired’ internet and NOT wireless. But that would require wiring every home up. The other issue is what about those areas where you cannot receive a signal at mobile phone frequencies, what are they going to do to solve that?
I test software, I break things, I look for weaknesses, this programme has so many its like having a party!
Eileen OConnor
The UK Radiation Research Trust calls for the UK Government to shelve the £12bn roll out of smart meters. Problems with “wireless” Smart Meters are reported worldwide with allegations of health-related discrimination to legal, security and infrastructure difficulties. US lawsuits are calling for more than $2 million in sanctions while other European countries such as Italy and France are opting for best practice for smarter meters to communicate to the central grid via the electric “wired” network.
(RRT) Director Eileen O’Connor said “I fail to understand why the UK Government plan to introduce another layer of wireless radiation when the WHO recently classified RF/microwave radiation as a Class 2B carcinogen. The health of the British public should be the number one priority.”
MPs Bill Esterson and RRT Patron Joe Benton MP joined RRT trustees at 10 Downing Street on 13th December to deliver copies of a new report ‘Smart Meters- Smarter Practices’ to David Cameron. The report was commissioned by the RRT and authored by Dr. Isaac Jamieson (DIC RIBA DipAAS BSc(Hons) MInstP). MP Bill Esterson commented: “As a parent with two young children I am acutely aware of any threats to the health. I would therefore support any moves to establish once and for all the evidence either for or against the safety.” Bill Esterson is due to call an adjournment debate and raise questions on mobile phones and wireless technology at the House of Commons.
RRT Chairman Brian Stein commented; “Smart Metering is now being rapidly rolled out across the UK, we have the biggest smart-meter roll-out without any consideration of the impact on people’s health. There is a need to properly assess the potential impact of these new technologies on health. The UK Government has the chance to help develop bio-friendly technologies that do not carry health risks.”
The reports author Dr Jamieson joined Eileen O’Connor and Salzburg public health advisor Dr Gerd Oberfeld at the European Parliament in Brussels in order to present copies of the report to MEPs. RRT Patron and Member of European Parliament Jill Evans said; “I fully support and endorse the Smart Meters-Smarter Practices document published by the Radiation Research Trust. It clearly shows that smart meters could result in serious issues in the future, not least health problems. I hosted a recent meeting in the European Parliament where this report was presented, and colleagues expressed similar serious concerns. I am proud to be a Patron of the Radiation Research trust and believe this document is yet another example of the high quality of their work.”
There are simple and safe alternatives to wireless smart meters, says the RRT, such as, fibre optic cable. It is imperative that health, human rights and public safety are taken into account when considering these types of systems. If smart meter is going to be installed in every home without consultation or consideration of the health impact on individuals, then a safer system such as fibre-optic cables needs to be urgently considered. Otherwise the companies installing them need to prepare themselves for potentially widespread health insurance claims.
Download the full report at http://www.radiationresearch.org
George Wood
Well, I went in for the live chat, posted my questions twice, as below, to Chris Huhne and never got an answer apart from in inference of ‘woolly thinking economists’ which I had used in an earlier direct e-mail to him. What do I make of that, well I believe like most politicians he avoided answering the questions:
Smart Meter Roll-Out, Questions to Chris Huhne, DECC 18 January 2012, 14.30 hours
1.What are the true costs of the smart meter roll-out programme?
2. Two years ago I looked at DECC data and figures of £10-billion for 2010 and £10.75-billion for 2011 were quoted. This clearly didn’t happen and now a figure of £11.1-billion is being quoted which is just over half the original quotation. Is this lower cost of roll-out because any additional connections to appliances in the home will become their own responsibility. Surely, the total cost of smart meters will in the end fall on the electricity consumers.
3. How can a figure of £11.1-billion be charged to consumers with no perceived or stated benefits?, apart from more accurate meter readings.
4. You say benefits of £18.1-billion will accrue from the roll-out of smart meters over time. What benefits are these? Can they be defined and evaluated in an unbiased way.
5. Do such benefits actually exist?
6. Are the £18.1 billion of benefits derived as a result of demonstrating that you are saving on the capacity costs of building new power stations and infrastructure at the margin? If so security of supply is being compromised.
7. Are you intending these smart meters to be switchable?
8. If you are intending to use smart meters for switching loads in homes, offices and manufacturing to avoid the marginal capacity costs, then it should be classed as a demand disconnection plan to stop the lights going out.
9. Please state your purpose for the massive £18-billion savings roles that you quote.
10. Would it not be better to invest £11.1-billion in new CCGT power stations that can ensure the countries security of supply is met?
George Wood
David Ramsay
I agree with you that DECC are intent on railroading the smart meter roll-out through as well as wind turbines and smart grids. Unfortunately, I dont believe there will be any carbon saving from the continued expansion of wind-turbines because of their carbon footprint of build, their must-run philosophy, causing inefficiencies in conventional combined cycle gas turbine operations and the need to virtually double the transmission and distribution capacities. These all have carbon footprints and these increases should be factored against wind-turbines which would result in little or no carbon saving. This total bill if we are intent on achieving a 50% target of renewables by 2050 will run into hundreds of billions. This is all unnecessary if we were to sensibly rely on CCGT’s utilising fracked shale gas and the replacement nuclear on existing sites. I cannot believe the sheer madness of whats taking place but Chris Huhne believes that my kind are ‘woolly thinkers’. It will be very sad for the nation and the poorest householders when they see the electricity bills exceed 20p/kWh. At least Chris Huhne is now accepting that shale gas with carbon capture could be a solution but I have no idea of the eventual cost of these developments. However this would definitely be carbon saving not fictitiously claimed as with ploughing on with the inflexible, unreliable wind-turbines.