Two-pin plugs – it’s just not British
Have you ever been sent a household appliance with a two-pin plug – the type you’d find on mainland Europe? We’ve heard from a number of people who have – little do they know that this is against the law.
It’s actually illegal for UK retailers to sell most domestic electrical products (not for example shavers, electric toothbrushes or items with rcd plugs) with two-pin plugs under the Plugs and Sockets Safety Regulations 1994. Most domestic appliances must be fitted with an approved three-pin British plug or an approved conversion plug.
Plugs – when two-pins aren’t enough
We wanted to dig deeper to see how widespread this problem was. So we surveyed 1,321 Which? members and found that one in 20 had bought a product online that came with an incorrect plug. A third of those were Amazon (including its Marketplace) customers.
We asked Amazon about this and it pointed us to its returns policy. And although this is fairly generous (30 days for any items sold by, or fulfilled by, Amazon), the policy doesn’t address the fact that sending these items in the first place is in breach of two sets of regulations. These are the Plugs regulations mentioned before and the Sale of Goods Act. If you receive an item with a two-pin plug, you can reject it as unfit for purpose under the Sale of Goods Act. We’ll be taking this up with Amazon to find out what it’s planning to do to prevent this.
In the meantime, is this something that’s ever happened to you? What sort of appliance did you get with a two-pin plug, and did you have any luck getting it changed for a model with a three-pin British plug?
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To
I have just purchased for my daughter, in store from Argos, a leg hair removing product. Braun silk-epil 3 Epilator. Got home and frustratingly we found it s cable had a two pin plug on it, contacting Argos help line saying it is illegal to sell an electrical product with out a BS three pin plug on it was it a mistake I got an Eu cable? I was told to buy an adaptor or return it. that can t be right? where are or rights as a consumer to have a Bs standard workable product . I don t have a two pin socket in my house, it is not advertised as a wet and dry product, ( either on the box or in Argos catalogue) I t is not a shaver or an electrical tooth brush), it for use in the bedroom so needs a three pin plug. I have an older version with the normal three pin plug cable,( my cable doesn’t t fit hers as the jack is slightly shorter due to the plastic casing around it.) so what can I legally demand. From Braun a suitable BS cable with three pin plug? Or Argos to at least supply an adaptor? Who do I approach to be able to have a UK working product. It cost £47.99 so not a cheap item but useless at present. I do nt know the effects or quality of other companies epilators that’s why I selected Braun. Please we’re do I stand legally?
socketman
Please remember that this thread is about mains plugs, the plugs and sockets regulations do not apply to plug-top power supplies, only mains appliances fitted with mains plugs. According to Braun this product uses a 12v transformer built into the plug-top, so the law has not been breached. Braun also say in the instruction manual, which I presume that you have, “Always use the country-specific 12 V transformer plug supplied with the product.” What Braun do not tell us on their website is whether the transformer for the UK version of this product should be supplied with a BS 1363 type plug or a BS 4573 shaver type plug.
You need to determine whether the two pin plug which is part of the transformer supplied to you has pins with centres spaced at 16.7mm (in which case it is intended to fit into a UK shaver socket, which would not be surprising, as it is clearly a shaver type product) or 19.1mm (in which case it is intended to fit into a European socket). You should also use Braun’s consumer helpline, 0800 783 7010, to ask them “what is the country-specific 12 V transformer plug which is supplied with the a UK product.”
If your product is correctly supplied wih a UK 2 pin plug transformer, and you do not have a shaver socket, then you do need to buy a dedicated shaver adaptor.
if on the other hand it is supplied with a European 2 pin plug transformer, and Braun can confirm to you that it should be a UK one, then Argos should be asked about that. An FAQ on Argos’s site does confirm that they supply a 2 pin transformer, but does not specify whether it is a UK or European one, and it displays a very shaky understanding of electrical safety! it also indicates that Argos seems to think that you are more likely to use the appliance in an hotel rather than your home, very odd! See http://www.argos.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/AskAndAnswerController?langId=110&storeId=10151&container=AskAndAnswerPopupView&type=product&typeid=4438647
Scott
They seem to have anticipated the problem as a shaver adapter comes up as an automatic suggestion at the bottom of the page. If it’s a standard Europlug Maplin sell a converter plug that allows the Europlug to be fitted inside a 13 amp plug:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/euro-convertor-white-19246
wavechange
The Braun 12 volt adapter is likely to have a plug suitable for a British shaver socket or adapter, as Socketman says.
Even if it has Europlug-style pins it is going to be too big to fit into the Maplin converter suggested by Scott.
Scott
I thought it was only shavers and toothbrushes that were allowed to be plugged into a shaver socket? Are you suggesting that it is legal to supply an epilator in the UK with a two pin plug for use in a bathroom?
Scott
To Socketman: I thought there was an exception that allowed appliances intended to be plugged into a shaver socket to be supplied in the UK with a Europlug as an alternative to a UK plug?
wavechange
Scott – Have a look at the Which? website. In a review of a Braun epilator it says: It’s worth noting that this epilator doesn’t come with a mains plug, just a two-pin shaver plug, so you’ll need to buy a separate adaptor if you don’t have a shaver socket in your home.
Scott
wavechange: I can see the logic as I suppose an epilator is a form of shaver so logically can be plugged into a shaver socket. I had not made that connection earlier. If correct, this answers the original poster. She bought a shaver. It came with a shaver plug. The suggestion that it is ‘useless’ or not fit for purpose is completely ill-conceived.
wavechange
That’s a bit uncharitable, Scott. We have seen several examples of people who have not understood that supplying toothbrush chargers with a shaver plug is normal practice.
To
What make them think you are standing in front of your bathroom mirror or sink to use an epilator. It is sold as a leg product and in small bathrooms that very un practical as it s not like a shaver an remove hair quickly. Sitting down is best was. But you can t if it s attached by the sink? This is not a wet and dry product , but you can get them. I have an old one that has a normal three pin plug on it s cable. I don t understand about the talk of adaptor s being 12v . It has a small jack that fits in to the Epilator and a two pin fixed plug the other. The pins are solid no holes. Output 12Vm/dc/400mA.
Hard to read info as white writing on a white plug!
To
It is not a shaver it has round blunt wheels that rotate. It does remove hair but not quickly like a shaver and easier to use sitting down preferably on the bed. For some people they do use these things in a bathroom but they are sold as wet and dry epilators. But this is not one of those. Some people do have very hairy legs and the process of removing the hair can take some time. Standing in a bathroom restricted for space is not ideal for the best results. I said I have an old version and it has a normal plug cable. Never had an issue. Need to buy a new one and why can t it be supplied with a normal plug?
To
Response to first post about transformers , sorry got confused with adaptor s and transformers. There is no transformer it is just one cable fix both ends ( as I said ) jack one end pins the other. Also no manual in the box.
wavechange
The chunky two pin ‘plug’ converts mains voltage to 12 volts, which is safer, especially if the user could have wet hands. You might not want to use your epilator in the bathroom but others might wish to, and ordinary mains sockets are not permitted. Just use a shaver adapter marked BS 4573 and fitted with a 1 amp fuse. Unfortunately the chunky ‘plug’ might drop out when in use.
What you really need is a rechargeable epilator, so you can use it wherever you want. Most electric shavers are rechargeable these days, so I guess that rechargeable epilators are available too. If you have not used yours, perhaps you could return it and buy a rechargeable model.
socketman
So, it sounds from the description that the epilator is supplied with a power adaptor having a 12v DC output, not as the Braun manual claims a 12v transformer. Sad that a company with a reputation like Braun’s should not know the difference! See pages 9 and 10 of the manual at: http://www.service.braun.com/line/SH/S5318/S5318_4_MN.pdf
Anyway, there is nothing untoward about providing such an adaptor with this product.
To
Thank you for all the guidance, is an adaptor for a two pin plug going to be safe for long term use? Won t the two pin fall out with vigorous moving? Unfortunately quality rechargeable one are £90 to£ 149 pounds. Well the ones I ve seen. I m sure like shavers there are good makes and makes that are ok but not as good a finish or are labouring to use. I Can t believe in our own country we are being sold products with two pins plug and have no choice about it. Braun did t have a problem sell the same product with a three pin plug some years ago.
wavechange
If the plug falls out it will be inconvenient rather than dangerous. If you do contact Braun, do let us know what they have to say about this.
socketman
Please put yourself in the position of someone (and that is possibly the majority) who believes that the most convenient place to use this type of product is in the bathroom. The only way that a mains appliance can be used in the bathroom is if it is equipped with a shaver plug which will plug into an isolated shaver supply unit. I imagine that when Braun sold such items with 3 pin plugs there would be howls of complaint from people who were therefore unable to use them in the bathroom. By providing the appropriate shaver type power adaptor Braun are ensuring that the appliance can be used wherever the consumer wishes, but if that happens to be somewhere which is not equipped with a shaver socket then you do need to purchase a suitable adaptor.
I do not think that you need to fear the adaptor, providing that the one you purchase is specifically designed for shavers (it will be fused at 1 amp). Do not buy a travel adaptor; that is not the correct product.
It would be very helpful if you could comment on the plug-top mains adaptor which you received, if you look at the manual (which I linked to above) you will see a European type plug-top adaptor illustrated on page 4, that is not the device which I would expect to be delivered in the UK. Yours should differ from the illustration by having the pins come directly out of the body of the adaptor, rather than being on that 6 sided protuberance which is necessary to use in a continental recessed socket. Could you please confirm that is the case? The reason I ask is that the continental type, although it would fit into most UK shaver sockets, would be less mechanically stable than a correctly designed UK type. This is because the additional distance from the socket would exert greater leverage on the socket.
wavechange
I am fairly sure that the lead described by ‘To’ is the same as I have on a recent Braun shaver. The specifications are the same. It has been clearly been designed to use with a recessed socket, as you describe, but the pin size and spacing have been changed to suit a British shaver socket. The lack of mechanical stability is likely to cause problems, in my view.
To
The two pin plug is weighty and pins not very long, it looks as if it is designed to fit into a recess as someone mentioned as it s wide then is cut away to a smaller part that holds the pins.
I m conserved about how long it will stay in an adaptor while being used, partially coming out sounds like it would be hazardous. Braun got back to me to say the same as socketman about it s use, and also said they have check there data and Braun never made a three pin plug Epilator! They will send me a voucher as good will to buy a adaptor from somewhere? ( very few options in the Wild West of Cornwall). I photographed my Braun Epilator and posted it to them. It says Braun on it it is call the same Silk epil and is better made, comes with a lid for roller blade protection and a carry case with press stud to put it and the cable( with has a three pin plug on it and even says on the plug ‘ only use with Silk epil hair remover’ written on it!) so Braun does nt know what they have made and that three pin plugs were available. I think this is all a cost issue the quality of the new one is nt as good no lid no case (even a cloth one to keep it in and the brush!) do the shavers have cases?
Dead Eye Dicky
TO
Your description of the Braun 2-pin plug looks like a typical euro design. While it will not allow the user to use the epilator in the bathroom tou can get legal UK adaptor on Amazon for less than 2 quid. Try this link:-
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Euro-Pin-Converter-Plug-Adapter/dp/B000NJ30QO/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1364320391&sr=8-2
A few years ago I bought something electronic from Pixmania and it came with one of these adaptors. They are pretty solid and you should not have any problem with it falling out of a UK 13-amp socket. My adaptor had a 3-Amp fuse so check this before using.
socketman
From what Wavechange suggested, and ‘To’ appears to have confirmed, the adaptor, whilst not illegal, is not well designed to fit into a UK shaver socket because of the projection which was originally designed to fit into a continental recessed socket, even though it may have UK pins on it.
I think that this is something that Which? might consider investigatng further.
wavechange
To
My Braun rechargeable shaver purchased a couple of years ago has a good zipped case, though there is no room for the charging lead. Older but much superior models came with a fairly useless pouch that accommodated both the shaver and the lead. Do keep us posted about what Braun has to say about your photo.
wavechange
Dead Eye Dicky
‘To’ bought her epilator from Argos, so the pin size and spacing is likely to match a British shaver plug rather than a Europlug. In addition, the correct fusing would be 1 amp, but BS1362 fuses are not readily available in this rating. I have never seen a converter plug for British shaver plugs.
socketman
Please ignore Dead Eye Dicky’s suggestion as he mistakenly thinks that you have a regular Europlug which would fit into the converter he has linked to. That plug converter (it is not an adaptor) would not accept any sort of plug-top power supply! “To” has described what they have, and Wavechange has also confirmed that the 12V power adaptor supplied is fitted with UK shaver plug pins, not Europlug pins. You need a UK shaver adaptor which is a fused adaptor fitted with a 1 amp BS 646 fuse (NOT a BS 1362 fuse). These are readily obtainable from Argos, Boots and others. I will follow this post up with another containing links to suitable shaver adaptors, and also a link to the Braun website which shows a replacement UK plug top power adaptor which clearly has UK pins rather than Europlug pins, and is also of a quite different design to that shown on page 4 of the manual I linked to earlier! If anything, I would suggest that this design is even worse as far as weight distribution and leverage is concerned.
socketman
Argos shaver adaptor:
http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Search/searchTerms/SHAVER+ADAPTOR.htm
Boots shaver adaptor:
http://www.boots.com/en/Boots-Two-Pin-Plug-Adaptor_872939/
Braun Epilator UK power adaptor picture (“To”, can you please confirm that this is a picture of what you have?):
http://www.service.braun.com/product/big_img.asp?artGrp=5318&partno=0067030933&l=GB&c=GB&pic=parts|xl|67030933_xl.jpg
Dead Eye Dicky
To Socketman & All,
Sorry about that. You are right. I’ve just checked my UK razor plug on the adaptor and it wont accept the fatter pins. Looks like we are back to square one.
Your link to service.braun fails to come up on my Firefox browser.
It’s a pity there is no simple way (as far as I know) without linking everyone to a personal cloud for us to send pictures to each other. There’s a challenge for Which?
wavechange
The link is faulty. Just copy the whole of link and paste it into your browser, and all will be revealed.
I agree that it would be useful to exchange photos but it would mean extra work for our moderators.
socketman
Not sure why the website mangled the original link, but here is a short one which should work:
http://tinyurl.com/braun12v
Dead Eye Dicky
OK. I’ve got the picture now.
If this is the plug-transformer that ‘TO’ has, it isn’t as big as I was expecting. If it is modern design it wont contain an iron-cored transformer. Comparing it to my mobile-phone charger it would weigh about 50 gms.
wavechange
Dead Eye Dicky – My shaver lead is of similar design, but men get black and a curly cord.
The distance between the base of the pins and the end of the strain relief sleeve is 120 mm and the voltage converter (presumably a switched-mode power supply) weighs approximately 70 g. A poor design, and a schoolchild could probably work out that keeping the cord as close to the shaver socket or adapter would help avoid the plug falling out when in use.
I have a home-made shaver adaptor made in the 60s, using a brown bakelite ’13 amp plug’ (containing a 1 amp fuse) connected to a two pin brown bakelite socket with a short length of flexible cable. It is just what ‘To’ needs because the connection is very secure, but I would not let anyone else use it because the socket is not shuttered.
wavechange
In her introduction, Ceri mentions taking up the issue of goods supplied with incorrect plugs with Amazon, to find out what it’s planning to do to prevent this. Has Which? made any progress with this? The longer it goes on, the more difficult it could be to stop.
Scott
Could Ceri also look at the interests of those who want a Europlug model for travel outside the UK? As I understand it, for shavers and toothbrushes it is legal to supply a Europlug in place of a UK two pin plug. I tried to get a toothbrush from Braun and a shaver from Philips and in both cases I was told I would need to make the purchase abroad.
Scott
As a postscript, I bought a new phone last weekend which came with a UK three pin charger that will not fit the sockets in Denmark. I ordered a European charger from Amazon. I hope the Which campaign does not result in Amazon and others becoming nervous about supplying such items, which can be perfectly legitimately possessed in the UK. It turns out my charger is being shipped from Germany (possibly because of concerns about UK regulations) and the emails are in German, so it is all a bit of an adventure.
Dead Eye Dicky
OK. The plug is legal but the design is pathetic. Pathetic design isn’t uncommon even with well-known manufacturers trying to shave manufacturing cost (no pun intended) but there is a basic problem. If you fit a UK 3-pin plug you loose out on sales to those who want to use it in the bathroom and there is also the problem where sockets are only about 300 mm above the floor (unless you will use it in the kitchen). Bathroom shaver sockets are usually around shoulder level so do you stand on a chair to use it? The manufacturer is on a hiding to nowhere.
My 30-year-old Philips shaver has a curly spring lead but even this is prone to disconnect sometimes due to the weight of the lead.
Scott
Do you mean ‘lose out on sales’ as a UK plug is less likely to work loose than a two pin plug?
Dead Eye Dicky
Scott
Obviously the UK plug is better for stability but you can’t use it in a bathroom hence reducing sales potential. I don’t know if modern houses have waist-level sockets in bedrooms but I presume skirting-height sockets make use with a short lead more difficult.
Scott
Dead Eye Dicky
I was pointing out the difference between ‘lose’ and ‘loose’ and you cannot ‘loose’ sales although you might ‘lose’ them if you antagonise customers
Dead Eye Dicky
Scott,
Thanks for the correction. I did mean ‘lose’.
To
Image did nt come through of the cable you poster but the code is the first one in the row. (The link has nt come through again so can t quote it).
To
Second image came through, Yes that s the cable.
Terry Leahy
You mention Amazon above and I have a classic example. I bought a HP printer from them (or, to be legally precise, via) them. It has the wrong connection being the European 2 prong one. The evasion and lack of interest by Amazon was remarkable and, as the article says, their first reply was to use the clause about simply returning goods within 30 days. They simply did not seem to understand that there is a big difference between using a return clause and the goods being rejected. Firstly the supplier said that they would send me a new plug and then, when I insisted, asked me to return it to a post office. My opinion is that, quite apart from the legal requirements, if Amazon can instruct a 3rd party supplier to deliver, it can also instruct it to pick up. This is still ongoing. (April 2013)
(Incidentally I reordered a similar machine from John Lewis on their ‘next day pick up locally’ deal and it could not be faulted. It was ready at my local supermarket overnight and before the time due. I even got a text and e-mail alert.
wavechange
I do hope you get satisfaction including refund of carriage costs, Terry. It’s good that some people are prepared to take action against large retailers that think they know best.
Scott
Has anyone looked closely at the plug pictured at the start. The text refers to two-pin plug – the type you would find on mainland Europe. However, the picture appears to show an Australian plug as it consists of flat pins that are angled.
Patrick Steen
You’re not the only one to have spotted. I contemplated changing the picture, but it’s quite hard finding an artistic picture of a plug. You can see the right type on my comment round-up: http://conversation.which.co.uk/energy-home/two-pin-plugs-eu-uk-plug-amazon-pixmania/
wavechange
I guessed this is an Australian plug at the start of the Conversation, but I have no idea what type is shown in the comment round-up. Any suggestions?
Scott
I think it is a CEE 7/17 German/French 16 Amp / 250 Volt unearthed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CEE_7-17_plug.jpg
socketman
Yes, CEE 7/17 it is.
wavechange
Thanks. I had not given overseas plugs and sockets much thought until this Conversation.
To
Reference to original post. Just informing socket man. Braun offered a voucher to cover cost of an adaptor. But I checked out some links that were posted and found a better Epilator. Panasonic and. rechargeable( as someone recommend). So The Braun went back. No Adaptor needed now. Thanks for the help.
wavechange
I would expect that your rechargeable Panasonic epilator would have the same plug as the Braun product.
I’ve got two (don’t ask why) Braun shavers that were bought in 2000 and are still working well on their original rechargeable batteries. I hope you are as fortunate.
To
It’s a three pin plug cable, solving the problem I had. Fast charging works well.
wavechange
Very sensible. No-one needs to charge any device in a bathroom and I have seen shaver sockets overheated when used for this purpose. Maybe they pre-dated rechargeable devices.
Gladdie
Just found this thread, earlier this week received a table lamp from Achica, beautiful lamp only problem two pin european plug, somewhere in my find I thought can they actually sell this to a consumer in UK, it came with no adaptor. I love the lamp but is it actally safe to use!
I have not contacted company because a friend said change the plug, I had decided to wait till weekend and ask advice in local electrical shop when buying three pin plug.
Scott
If you look through other parts of the thread you will see you can buy a converter plug that allows you to put the Europlug directly inside a UK three pin plug with just one screw to tighten up. Maplin sell these. This might be an option if you are not happy with changing the plug.
Scott
http://www.maplin.co.uk/euro-convertor-white-19246
socketman
That is illegal, can you tell us the model you bought?
Gladdie
Socketman was it illegal for Achica to sell the lamp for sale in UK, sorry some threads seem to over lap
Scott
In which country was the address of the supplier with whom you placed your order and from which country was the item despatched?
socketman
Gladdie, on the assumption that you received a lamp with a two pin mains plug it was definitely illegal. If your lamp was a low voltage lamp and was supplied with a 2 pin plug top power adaptor, then the law does not cover that, can you please confirm which it is?. I understand that ACHICA Ltd is a UK Registered Company No: 7039129 – 20 Hanover Square, London, W1S 1JY.
Scott
Socketman – and on the further assumption that the lamp was purchased direct from ACHICA and not from a third party supplier with no connection (excuse the pun here) to the UK. I think we have already established that there is at least room for argument about whether the UK Government has power to legislate beyond the limits of UK jurisdiction.
socketman
Scott, your post makes no sense, Achica is a UK members only shopping site, as such they are a UK company offering the product for sale, so are fully responsible for ensuring compliance with law, no matter where the goods ship from.
Scott
Ok, point taken. I did not appreciate Achica was sole supplier as this was not clear from the post. I should have checked. Of course as a UK supplier they are bound by UK law. I’m not sure what Gladdie can do other than demand a refund. If she wants to keep the lamp I assume she will need to change the plug or use a converter plug. Personally I would use one of the converter plugs sold by Maplins for about £5.
Gladdie
Hi
Yes it is a UK company and as such would expect a UK plug, the box was posted in UK however the literature inside was in English and Spanish, lamp made in China but underlamp base it clearly is UK power rating. I am extremley disapointed with Achica, the lamp was not cheap and I love it, I will keep it as long as safe to use, its of to work tomorrow so our electrican can look at it, I do intend to wack an email to Achica and ask what they intend to do to rectify this and why it happened
Richard
Is it really asking too much of you to simply cut the nasty foreign plug off, and replace it with a nice friendly British one? It souldn’t take you more than a maximum of five minutes.
Scott
Or http://www.maplin.co.uk/euro-convertor-white-19246 which would take no more than about 10 seconds.
Gladdie
Ah yes cut the plug off, that was my first thought, but little Miss Caution thought she would ask first so lamp in car on way to work to get medical advice!!
socketman
Quite right Gladdie, the law is there to protect you, why ignore Achica’s disregard for the law?
Dead Eye Dicky
This is going back some way but I’m reminded of the person who bought a replacement for a pump for a fountain in a pond. The replacement came without a plug because new regulations decreed that equipment designed for use outside should be wired directly to a special outdoor junction box.
My daughter has just bought on special offer (I think for one day only) a Rain-Barrel-Pump from Lidl in Bridport and this is fitted with a standard UK plug. If anything should be well protected electrically, this is it!. I found the instruction manual on Lidl’s website ( http://www.lidl-service.com/cps/rde/SID-67E9A150-4A15C3EA/lsp/hs.xsl/product.html?id=8885595&rdeLocaleAttr=en&title=Rain%20Barrel%20Pump%20FRP%20350%20B1 ) and this says that it should be used with an RCD cutout.
Is Lidl keeping on the right side of the law by offering this pump for sale?
wavechange
I have a Clarke 230 volt submersible pump purchased at Machine Mart. It also has a standard 13 amp plug. It was a panic purchase during the 2007 floods, and the 110 volt version was out of stock. I have never used it, since a 12 volt pump was just adequate to prevent water reaching my house.
It would make sense for small pumps, like the one sold by LIDL, to be low voltage.
John
I can’t see any reason why Lidl should not be complying with any laws, or rather breaking any, Any device that is to be used in the proximity of water, in a damp environment or other high risk usage should be protected by an RCD, It’s no different to your lawn mower or anything else being used outside. In fact all modern wiring now must be protected with an RCD in the consumer unit, but it makes sense to use additional safety on such items even so. Any such device that is to be permanently wired in must also be protected by a double isolating switch, and any external switches must be IP rated (55 or better) to withstand water ingress.
roseann tierney
hi i have saw japanese lamps on ebay with 2 pin plug should i buy them or leave it they are coming from a house in the uk ?
Scott
Since you say they are coming from a house, I assume this is private seller. From a quick reading of the regulations, it seems to me that there is no distinction between a private sale and a sale in the course of trade. On that basis, the seller would have a duty to supply the lamps with a UK plug (or fitted with an approved converter plug). However, as soon as you point out that the sale of an appliance fitted with a two pin plug is prohibited, they may respond that if it is prohibited they have no option but to refuse to supply. Then someone else will get the lamps.
There would be nothing to stop you from either (1) fitting a converter plug, presumably also available on eBay or (2) changing the plug yourself. (*) Morrisons sell 13 amp plugs for £1. You would need to fit a 3 amp fuse (rather than 13 amps).
It has to be your decision, depending on how much you like the lamps and whether you are prepared to use your initiative in sorting out the plug. Personally, if I really wanted them I would buy them anyway and probably change the plug (on the basis that a plug is cheaper than a converter).
(*) If you decide to change the plug, the new plug should be fitted in accordance with the instructions and the old plug should be disposed of safely and in accordance with any environmental regulations. If in any doubt you should consult a qualified electrician.
NT
“and whether you are prepared to use your initiative in sorting out the plug”
This is one of the greatest wind-ups of this whole comment section. Yes, because initiative is the reason why people wouldn’t want to go changing a plug on an electrical device. The law, of course, is there to stop people using their initiative in changing a plug. Nothing to do with safety.
I’m not sure what Scott’s ulterior motive is (in the business of distance-selling electrical products with two pin plugs in the UK? Just an electrical-knowledge snob/show-off?), but the whole point of the law is to stop people having to mess around with the hazardous consequences of incorrectly fitting a new plug on an electrical item.
Malcolm R
Buying any secondhand electrical item leaves you with the possibility they are electrically unsafe. If you are not competent with electrics suggest you get an electrician toi check them out – PAT testing will show if they are safe.
Scott
To NT: (1) I note you have chosen to quote one line of 20, out of context. I hope others will read the whole post (especially the last four lines); (2) There is nothing inherently unsafe about fitting a plug. Otherwise plugs would not legally be on sale at Morrisons and elsewhere; (3) No ulterior motive. I was just trying to assist Roseann by answering the question (which your posting conspicuously does not do); (4) ‘Snob’ – why let the facts get in the way of a good argument?
To Malcolm: Very good point. The electrician could fit a suitable plug at the same time.
wavechange
Fair enough if an electrician fits a plug and checks the safety of each item. In the days when people did fit their own plugs, they rarely did a good job, and I’ve seen numerous examples that are downright dangerous. That is why having manufacturers using moulded plugs or fitting them is a real benefit.
There are quite a few videos on the Web, and I have yet to find one that I consider satisfactory.
John
Exactly, you should not buy this item, in fact you should report it as the seller is most likely breaking regulations by selling it, you do not want to be fitting a plug your self unless you are 100% certain of doing it correctly, incidentally this is one reason why goods are supplied with moulded plugs, in fact selling goods with non moulded plugs is also illegal (unless they are secondhand and were originally supplied with a non moulded plug), If a seller cuts off a moulded plug and replaces it with a fitted one then this would also be illegal.
wavechange
John
I am very much in favour of moulded plugs but I have not heard that it is illegal to sell products with non-moulded plugs. Can you tell me which legislation demands this?
I have two Bosch battery-operated drills and two electric screwdrivers that were supplied with chargers fitted with conventional BS 1363 plugs rather than moulded plugs. They all have strain relief sleeves and the standard of wiring is satisfactory. Apart from the slight inconvenience of having to open the plug to do a PAT test, I don’t see any problem.
Malcolm R
As far as I know, you can still legally fit a spur to your existing wiring, or for example wire in new light fittings or pendants to existing supplies, although it is usually advised if you don’t know what you are doing to ask an electrician. Probably more difficult than fitting a 3 pin plug. This is about knowing your competence, isn’t it? You shouldn’t stop competent individuals doing appropriate jobs. Nor can you stop the determined incompetent though except by advice. Education in DIY might be an answer?
Richard
You say, “You shouldn’t stop competent individuals doing appropriate jobs.” Exactly! 100% my view, but many here seem to think that the base line position is that anybody without a nice framable certificate (preferably with hologram), should be assumed not competent, and prevented by criminal law from doing anything for him/her self.
I am beginning to despair.
wavechange
I think you are right, Malcolm, but I would check because rules have a habit of changing. It’s ridiculous that in the age of websites, the Wiring Regs are still only available for purchase.
I very much agree about education in DIY and knowing your own competence is absolutely vital. Although I am annoyed by restrictions on what electrical work the householder can do, I have seen enough dodgy DIY work to understand why these restrictions are in place. One reason for having a good understanding of DIY is that you can check what ‘professionals’ have done. It is not always up to standard.
Scott
John: re the suggestion that it is illegal to sell appliances with non-mounded plugs, I got a Russell Hobbs kettle last September fitted with a non-moulded plug. I expect a large company like Russell Hobbs will understand the regulations. Could you clarify the regulation to which you refer and the date on which it came into force?
John
Scott, Regarding the moulded plug question, on a quick check I can’t find any regulation that says you can’t sell an item with a rewirable plug, I am sure i read it somewhere a long time ago but most manufacturers have been only selling with moulded plugs for a long time, I think it started over 10 years ago, possibly as far back as 20 years. All i could find was this:
You must provide clear wiring instructions for the plug if it is of the rewirable kind even if you have fitted it yourself (for example, manufacturers wiring card fitted over the pins)
So it seems my statement may have been incorrect, it looks like it is ok as long as the above is complied with and it is a fused plug.
John
Malcolm, as far as I know you can no longer do any wiring in your house, including adding spurs, much of the information on the internet appears to be well out of date so it’s no wonder it’s hard to find the correct answer. I don’t agree with the new restrictions either, It’s just another part of the baby sitting culture in the UK, It was done to protect idiots and believe me there are plenty of those about, people who think they know what they are doing but don’t. On the other hand the worst of these idiots aren’t going to care about the regs any way and will most likely continue to do as they wish. It is another well intended but unlikely to to have much effect safety measure by the government. And I think some one else mentioned it but I have seen many qualified contractors not complying with the regs, taking shortcuts etc.
Eddie Hawke
Why not use the money on some basic grammar lessons?
Patrick Steen
Hello Eddie, please have a read of our commenting guidelines and try not to be rude to other commenters: http://conversation.which.co.uk/commenting-guidelines Thanks
John
To answer a response made previously regarding the use of shaver plugs for anything else but a shaver, Technically you should not, particularly if you are in not in your own home (many public places actually have notices saying not to plug anything but a shaver into the shaving socket.
The reason for this is that the shaver outlets have an isolating transformer that is only capable of powering a shaver, putting anything which draws more current than about 800mA will overload it and create a fire risk. The shaver plugs that can be plugged into a three pin socket are fused at 1A so you can use anything in these, but again it is limited to about 800mA for safe operation, as you approach 1A the fuse will become hot and could cause a fire risk.
One other point i have noticed regarding the supply of items with two pin plugs, I have recently seen a large number of items being supplied on Ebay with plug in two pin power adapters where the pins are to thin to make proper contact in a UK two pin socket and as such are also a fire risk due to the high possibilty of arcing due to poor connection.
Scott
Are you saying that you cannot use an electric toothbrush via a shaver socket? I understood they were designed to used in a bathroom, plugged into a shaver outlet. I would expect a rechargeable toothbrush to use no more power than an electric shaver, probably less. I believe there may be an issue with fluctuating voltage depending on load, but I assumed the toothbrush power supply was designed to cope with this. I have heard it suggested that you should plug it into the 110 volt socket rather than the 230 volt socket if it has a multi-voltage power supply.
Scott
John: I think you are referring to a Europlug
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europlug
These are not designed to be used in UK two pin sockets. How many round pin sockets are still in existence anyway given the present system of 13 amp plugs was introduced in 1947?
Have you looked at http://www.maplin.co.uk/euro-convertor-white-19246
which might solve your problem?
wavechange
I don’t see any problem, Scott. John makes an important point about not using plugs with the wrong size pins, which is relevant for any plug and socket combination.
Regarding John’s point about the danger of 1 amp fuses overheating, I have never seen any evidence of this and I have many mains appliance plugs with 1 amp fuses (BS 1362 rather than the BS 646 fuses used in shaver adaptors) and I have never seen any sign of overheating in 40 years.
I don’t know enough about shaver points to make useful comment, but I have seen ones that have been cracked and discoloured due to use for recharging shavers and toothbrushes. They were old shaver points, presumably intended for intermittent use, and installed in the days before rechargeable devices appeared on the market. I presume that modern shaver points are protected against overheating. I cannot see any reason for charging anything in a bathroom, since this can easily be done in a dry environment elsewhere in the house.
Malcolm R
It is very convenient to charge a toothbrush in the bathroom – my points are installed in bathroom cabinets.
wavechange
Fair enough, but greatest safety takes priority over convenience for me. It is like having a smoke detector in every room rather than one per floor, which is the usual recommendation.
John
They don’t *normally* overheat, any fuse will get hot if you draw current close to it’s rating, my point is that it’s easy to overload it if you use anything other than a shaver or similar low current device on it.
John
Isolated shaver points i hope? If not then they are against regulations and would void your insurance
John
It is perfectly ok to use an electric toothbrush in a shaver socket, as you say it probably uses less power than a shaver, I take it it’s rechargeable any way? the one I have has no contact with electricity, I think they are all like that? Works by magnetic field (inductance).
However if you are in a guest house or similar public place and you use it, the owner might not be to happy as there are insurance issues involved and you could be held responsible for any fire or injury if something went wrong – legally a shaver socket is only for a shaver – end of story. what you do in your own home on the other hand is up to you – at least in this respect.
Malcolm R
Exactly, John. The rechargeable toothbrush chargers have inductive chargers so no direct contact with the brush electrically.
Scott
To Malcolm R: The argument has nothing to do with direct electrical contact. The argument is that the shaver point is designed for intermittent use only (shaving for 2-3 minutes at time) and not for continuous use and might overheat if used continuously. I am sceptical about this as the current used to recharge a battery must be very low indeed and I cannot see it causing overheating, but I would be interested in what others have to say.
wavechange
I made the point about intermittent use in the first post of this Conversation. That certainly used to be the case, though modern shaver points may be designed to cope with charging shavers and toothbrushes.
Transformers are not 100% efficient, so get warm even under zero load, and more so when used to provide power. I have two sockets with hairline cracks, both caused by different Black & Decker plug-in chargers. I believe that isolation transformers (always present in shaver points for safety) are less efficient than conventional transformers, so the heating effect could be greater. If the face plate does not get warm there is probably nothing to worry about. I hope that shaver points have thermal fuses or overheating cutouts these days.
John
(Scott) Regarding plugging into 110v, you should never plug i anything with a different voltage, if you plug something designed to run on 230V into 110V you will overload the supply and possibly damage the equipment as the current flow will increase by double or more.
Regarding the Europlug, yes that is what I am referring to, it is in fact illegal though to sell equipment with these in the UK, but it seems there are quite a lot breaking the laws on Ebay.
I would hope there are no two pin sockets in the UK, other than isolated shaver points as they are illegal and extremely dangerous! You do not need to buy an adapter as the unit should not have a two pin plug in the first place.
wavechangex
John
I think Scott is referring to a rechargeable electric toothbrush that can operate from 100 to 230 volts. My electric shavers and many other small appliances do this, thanks to clever switched mode power supplies.
I would like to see evidence of fuses in shaver adapters overheating if operated near their maximum load.
I cannot find any evidence that the householder is now forbidden from doing all electrical work in the home.
Malcolm R
wavechange, I believe major domestic electrical work – such as installing a new ring main for example – has to be certified by the local authority, and that requires either a registered electrician to carry out the work, or to have DIY work certified by one. Wiring colours have been changed I believe to differentiate such work from older installations – so what you buy from Wickes etc will no longer be black and red.
This is sensible, as of course incorrectly installed electrics can be lethal. Incorrectly wiring a plug can also be lethal. It is where you draw the line between allowing competent DIY work, and imposing additional costs.
Malcolm R
I found the following on line:
“Part P of the Building Regulations limit what electrical work may be carried out by anyone other than a professional electrician who is a competent person registered with an electrical self-certification scheme.
When work is carried out by a professional electrician, they will deal with the necessary paperwork to comply with the Regulations. They will also provide you with a signed Building Regulations Self Certification document together with a completed Electrical Installation Certificate.
The Regulations come under the jurisdiction of the Building Control Officer of the Local Authority for the area. You should contact them to find out exactly how they apply the Regulations.
Essentially, work falls into two categories: Non-notifiable and Notifiable.
For Non-notifiable work, your Building Control Officer may not require any notification but you should establish this for yourself.
For Notifiable work, your Building Control Officer must be notified before any work is carried out.
All work must comply with the IEE Wiring Regulations.
A competent DIYer may be allowed to carry out Non-notifiable work without having to notify the Building Control Officer, but it is always best to check with them first.
Examples of such work are:
Replacing sockets, switches and ceiling roses
Replacing damaged cable in one circuit
Replacing socket boxes
In addition, some other works may be deemed Non-notifiable anywhere except in kichens, bathrooms, utility rooms and other special locations. In these areas they will be considered Notifiable
Examples of such work are:
Adding light fittings and switches to existing circuits
Adding sockets or fused spurs to existing ring or radial circuits
You should refer to the Regulations themselves for exact details
If you are competent, you may carry out Noifiable work provided you notify your Building Control Officer in advance exactly what you plan to do. Once you have obtained permission, you will then need to have the work inspected and certified upon completion by a suitably qualified inspector. Full details of the proceedure and costs involved may be obtained from the Building Control Officer.”
wavechange
This is my understanding too, Malcolm. This is not new and I am not aware of any recent changes.
Malcolm R
Just seen news about changes that took place in April (the above came in in 2005 I think). These are as follows (sorry this is all a bit off topic)::
“This Approved Document Part P of the Building Regulations 2013 still supports electrical safety in dwellings, and took effect from the 6th of April 2013 for use in England. It also applies to building work carried out on excepted energy buildings in Wales as defined in the Welsh Ministers (Transfer of Functions) (No. 2) Order 2009.
Note that the 2006 Edition will continue to apply to work begun before 6th of April 2013, or to work subject to a building notice, full plans application or initial notice submitted before 6th of April 2013.
The document itself is shorter and has greater clarity, and there is some reduction to the list of works that must be notified to the Local Authority Building Control (LABC). In particular, the main changes in the Approved Document are:
The range of electrical installation work that is notifiable has been reduced. ‘Notifiable’ means work that is legally required to display compliance with the Building Regulations. Under the revised regulations, electrical work undertaken in kitchens or outdoors is no longer covered by Part P unless a new circuit is required.
An installer who is not a registered competent person may use a registered third party to certify notifiable electrical installation work as an alternative to using a Building Control body. Previously, an electrical contractor undertaking work covered by Part P, but who was not him/herself registered with a competent persons’ scheme, was required to notify local authority’s building control – which could then determine whether the work was acceptable under the regulations. This eliminates the cost of producing Building Regulations Compliance Certificates for some minor works, but importantly, the new regulations still retain the need to issue Electrical Installation Certificate Reports (EICRs) for all work carried out within a dwelling.
Reference is now made to BS 7671:2008 incorporating Amendment No. 1:2011.”
wavechange
Thanks for this. It is a lesson to those of us who assume that information on websites is up to date.
Scott
John: I was referring to a variable input power supply with a operating range 100-240 volts, so 115 volts would not be the ‘wrong’ voltage. The argument runs that an isolating transformer is prone to over-voltage so there is a risk of exceeding 240 volts.
John
I think there is some confusion over what is notifiable under the building regulations and what a non Part P certified person can undertake, Just because you don’t have to notify under the building regulations doesn’t mean any unqualified person can carry out mains wiring.
John
I don’t follow you Scott regarding the 115v thing, If you put 115V through a 230V transformer then double the usual amount of current will flow in the circuit, possibly more as you are affecting the inductance of the transformer, so it could do more damage than putting a few volts over 240V through it Incidentally the official voltage in the UK is 230V, i don’t think it should exceed 240V, there is a tolerance either way but I’m not sure what it is, about 10% i think
wavechange
Appliances that work over a range of voltages use switched-mode power supplies, not transformers.
It means that manufacturers can supply the same product in countries that have different voltages. I believe that they will operate at 50 – 60 Hz too.
About 15 years ago, I bought a rechargeable shaver that would not only work over a range of 100 – 250 V AC and also even charge from a supply of 12 volts DC.
Very few small appliances or chargers use transformers these days.
Malcolm R
John, the extract I provided was about some changes to Part P – that does not mean that previous requirements were abolished. It seems to derive from Govt trying to reduce red tape by reducing the involvement of Building Control.
Scott
John: Sorry if I did not make this clear. The shaver point has two outlets – 115 volts and 230 volts. The power supply for the electric shaver can handle a range from 100 to 240 volts, so could safely be plugged into either outlet. The argument is that if you plug it into the 115 volt outlet excess voltage is impossible. If you plug it into the 230 volt outlet, then there is a possibility of the voltage exceeding 240 volts.
The nominal voltage, as you say, is 230 volts. My understanding is that there is a tolerance of +10% or -6% corresponding to a range 217 to 253 volts. However, a shaver socket contains an isolating transformer. I read somewhere that under low load conditions the voltage (on the secondary winding) can exceed 253 volts.
So the argument is that if you use the 115 volt outlet the equipment will work and it is guaranteed that the voltage will not be exceeded. If you use the 230 volt outlet there is a theoretical possibility that the voltage will be exceeded. Therefore it makes sense to use the 115 volt outlet IF the equipment can operate at that voltage.
You are not putting 115 volts through a 230 volt transformer. You are drawing 115 volts from a dual voltage transformer and putting it through a power supply unit designed to operate at 115 volts.
wavechange
I understand what you are saying, Scott.
I have seen toothbrush and other chargers coping fine with excessive voltage from generators and inverters running on light load. It’s interesting to keep an eye on what’s happening when living off-grid, which I do when on holiday.
John
Ok scott, I think i get what you mean know regarding the 115V.
Scott
Wavechange: I measured the mains voltage yesterday as 245 volts. I take it the 240 volt maximum for the shaver power supply is based on nominal voltage and in reality it will cope with up to 253 volts? (It was bought in the EU.) I am reassured by your comment about excessive voltage.
wavechange
Scott – I can only comment on what I have seen. Most people don’t go around monitoring mains voltage – just nerds like us.
I know a company that specialises in LED lamps for use in boats and RVs. Some of them will operate from 10 – 30 volts, which is quite impressive. That does not mean that all LED lamps are capable of this.
John
wavechangex, I don’t think you know what you are talking about, I’ve already said that an electric toothbrush would overload a shaver point, and what relevance smps has over a transformer i have no idea, my electric toothbrush is inductively charged from a base unit which is plugged straight in the mains, I guess you are talking about ones which use a wall pluggable PSU? also i didn’t specifically say that fuses in shaver plugs overheat when near there maximum load, I had already stated that this applies to any fuse, I suggest you plug a 3KW heater in for about 15 minutes or more and feel the fuse in the plug, be careful, you may get a burn.
wavechange
John
A 13 amp fuse will undoubtedly get warm with a continuous 3 kW load, but the ceramic body of the fuse and the plastic of the plug should cope with the heat. If it does get hot, this is likely to be due to excessive resistance due to wiring faults in the plug or fuse or poor contact between plug and socket. Tarnished brass pins can be a problem, particularly if electrical items are stored in damp places like unheated garages.
A switched-mode power supply generally produces less heat than a conventional metal-cored transformer.
wavechange
Oops – that should read “If it does get hot, this is likely to be due to excessive resistance due to wiring faults in the plug or socket or poor contact between plug and socket.”
John
wavechange – why do you keep twisting my words?
I never said the ceramic body of the fuse and the plastic of the plug would not cope with the heat, I simply stated it would get hot, The fuse by design is the weakest part of the circuit, and the part that presents the highest resistance due to it’s thickness, Therefore it follows it will get hot when the current flowing through it is near it’s blow rating, it’s not an ideal situation and should be avoided, eventually the excessive heat does burn and breakdown the insulation (plastic), as with an overloaded cable. Incidentally a 1A fuse in a shaver plug would never normally have any where near 1A flowing through it. In fact the average shaver draws about 15W, at an accurate voltage of about 238V, that makes the current 63mA (0.063A), remember that the mains fuse is not to protect the device but to prevent the cable burning in the event of a device fault causing in excess of the rated current for the cable to being exceeded, This is why fitting 13A fuses to 5A cable is extremely dangerous, because if a fault develops in the device which causes 6A to flow in the cable the cable will melt and catch fire before the fuse blows, only a direct short would blow the fuse first.
If a 13A amp fuse carrying 12.5A “will undoubtedly get warm” then what makes you think a 1A fuse carrying 950mA will not? You are not making any sense, then you state “If it does get hot, this is likely to be due to excessive resistance due to wiring faults”, If there is excessive resistance then the current flow would be less so it would not get hot. Poor contact does not make the fuse get hot, it makes the point of poor contact get hot due to arcing, nothing to do with what i was talking about.
Malcolm R
John, whilst resistance in the circuit will partly limit the current, it will also absorb power and create heat. So a poor contact for example will become hot locally and this is what can do the damage.
wavechange
John – I can assure you that resistance will create heat, without any arcing.
Let’s end this dialogue because it has little to do with two-pin plugs.
John
wavechange – No, No, No, you are changing what i stated yet again, you seem to have difficulty with understanding English and grammar, You were talking about fuses and you said “If it does get hot, this is likely to be due to excessive resistance due to wiring faults”, So you were saying that an increased resistance in the wiring circuit would make the fuse hot which is total rubbish because an increase in resistance of the wiring would reduce the flow of current in the fuse, it would be the wiring which would get warmer, not the fuse.
wavechange
That’s right. The heat is generated at the site of resistance. The heating effect is the square of the current times resistance. If the ‘live pin’ gets hot due to poor contact with the socket or the connection to the live terminal in the plug is hot due to a poor connection, the fuse will get hot too, thanks to conduction of heat. Depending on the nature of the problem, insulation can melt, copper and brass can oxidise and plastic can burn too.
At mains voltage, the decrease in current is not likely to be significant until a failure is imminent.
John
Malcolm, I am well aware that increased resistance produces more heat, thanks for the lesson, but that is not the context in which wavechange was referring, please re-read his reply/comment slowly!
Also the fact is that a poor contact will arc if the current/voltage is high enough obliterating the small increase in heat produced by the greatly increased resistance, this is becoming a nit picking thread and not really very helpful. To return to the original question.
1. Technically only a shaver should be used in a shaver socket, using anything else could cause legal/insurance issues if the other use resulted in an accident or fire.
2. An electric toothbrush will not overload a shaver socket, so if you choose to do that on your own property it’s your choice.
3. If your electric toothbrush is anything like mine which is plugged directly into the mains and is fitted (possibly illegally in this country) with an un-fused 2 pin plug then putting it in a shaver socket is much safer than plugging it into a 13A plug via an adapter. If your electric toothbrush uses a separate power supply then the power adapter should have a 3 pin plug and as such will not usually be able to be plugged in in a bathroom.
John
wavechange, why won’t you just admit you were wrong instead of trying to find other excuses/explainations. You might as well say if the house was on fire it would cause the fuse to get hot., one minute you are saying the fuse wouldn’t get hot, now you are coming up with 101 ways a fuse could get hot and stating the obvious that higher resistance increases heat, bearing in mind a fuse is a single strand and is probably the highest resistance in the wiring and weakest point, you are contradicting even yourself.
wavechange
I’m not enjoying criticism and we are well off-topic. I respectfully suggest that you consider how heat can be generated without arcing. A fuse provides an excellent example of this.
Get yourself a PAT tester and you will find many cases where the mains lead has a higher resistance than the plug fuse. That’s not usually a problem, but if a long cable is coiled up the insulation can melt.
socketman
This thread has gone hopelessly off topic, it would be very helpful if contributors would avoid discussing matters which are not directly related to the original issue, and also to not speculate or guess what the law says. If you know something relevant please share it, if you do not then please do not mislead by speculation.
Shaver outlets are required to be marked with the shaver symbol, it is not necessary for them to be marked with any words indicating they are only for use with shavers. There are two types of fixed shaver outlet which are legal in the UK. BS 4573 shaver sockets (which do not contain transformers and must not be used in bathrooms) are limited to a maximum current of 0.2A. Shaver supply units to BS EN 61558-2-5 include isolation transformers and may be used in bathrooms, they are restricted to a rated output between 20VA and 50VA but there is no stipulation as to the period for which they may be used continuously. There is no regulation which says that shaver outlets may not be used for other appliances, but the user must take into account the limited current available.
The regulations permit “any electrical shaver, toothbrush or similar appliance” to be supplied with either a BS 4573 shaver plug or a Europlug, neither of these plugs is equipped with a fuse but as stated above, shaver outlets must be current limited. An adaptor to enable either a BS 4573 shaver plug or a Europlug to be used with a standard BS 1363 socket must be equipped with a fuse.
wavechange
Many are marked ‘Shavers only’, so the manufacturers do not seem to have caught up with modern usage. In contrast, adaptors are often marked ‘For shavers and toothbrushes’ these days.
socketman
Regarding Part P, see this summary of the changes and the law at Voltimum, the internet portal for the electrical industry:
http://tinyurl.com/cou8sg9
Malcolm R
After 520 comments I would think the original topic has been thrashed to death several times over?! So it is not surprising that the conversation moves to other related (even vaguely) issues. Speculation seems to be part of these conversations – just like ordinary conversations; there are plenty of “experts” to correct factoids.
I find some of the interest in conversations stems from the meandering path they take. Where will it end?
wavechange
I agree, Malcolm. It would be rather tedious if every contribution was strictly on-topic and authoritative. If we go too far off topic, particularly in a recent Conversation, one of our moderators will keep us on track. Participating in Which? Conversation is a great way of learning and helping others.
Of course, if Which? would report back on their discussions with Amazon about selling products will two-pin plugs, that might help us focus on the original topic.
socketman
Which? asked us: “is this something that’s ever happened to you? What sort of appliance did you get with a two-pin plug, and did you have any luck getting it changed for a model with a three-pin British plug?”. Perhaps if they are finished collecting information they could let us know and close the thread, otherwise, if Which? still wish to collect data perhaps we should respect their question and not confuse matters with extraneous information!
Malcolm R
socketman, “and not confuse matters with extraneous information” – I think that would be a first for almost any conversation! All part of their charm, and I don’t think Which have much of a problem with it – do you?
As for closing a conversation, look at your Manage your subscriptions – many (all?) old conversations still exist and can be commented on. Do Which close them? I’ve deleted many of mine but just looked at an Overdraft one – Feb 2011 – still functioning.
wavechange
Which? has only closed one Conversation to date, as far as I know – the first one on nutritional therapists. This was done some contributors had failed to heed warnings from the moderators. Other Conversations have links to more recent discussions. This site has a considerable amount of useful information, sometimes in posts that are not very relevant to the intended discussion.
Sorry for being off-topic.
Patrick Steen
Hi all, we have no problem with meandering Conversations, especially if they are on the old side of the line. Most Conversations end swiftly, but the most valuable are often the ones that keep going.
Try and stay on topic if you can, but that topic can veer if relevant. For example, discussions about plugs, or the electrical problems with products bought online, are perfectly relevant here.
Wavechange is right, we’ve only closed one Convo, and that was for bad behaviour. You can go and comment on debates from 2010 if you so wish. I’ll see if we’ve heard anything from Amazon.
Thanks
wavechange
I think there is a case for helping people understand that it is normal for electric toothbrush chargers to have a BS 4573 two-pin plug, like an electric shaver. I found that a friend was going to take back a rechargeable toothbrush because she did not have a two-pin socket, and go back to using battery-operated toothbrushes and her travel adaptors were of no use. The two-pin plug on toothbrush chargers has also confused several contributors to this Conversation.
Perhaps the shops could help by having adaptors on display beside their display of electric toothbrushes.
Scott
At the risk of repetition (but not deviation or hesitation) I still think it would be better still to sell them fitted with a Europlug. Such a plug would fit a shaver socket or shaver adapter in the UK with the added advantage of compatibility with standard sockets in other European nations.
wavechange
Just a Minute. You have been given reasons why this is not a good idea.
Scott
As I recall, the reasons related to appliances intended to be used in standard sockets, not shavers etc that are always fitted with two pin plugs. Given the number of traditional two pin 5 amp sockets in the UK must be close to zero, and shaver points and adapters are universal, why not just fit Europlugs?
wavechange
Europlugs have no fuse, Scott. I have explained why this is important.
Next time you are in an unmodernised or historic pub, have a game of electrical i-Spy. One point for each two-pin 5 amp socket. Five points for a two pin plug in a 13 amp socket and ten points for wires poked into any socket.
Scott
Wavechange: Please re-read my posting. I was referring to devices to be plugged into shaver points or shaver adapters. Shaver adapters have a 1 amp fuse and I assume shaver points are fused internally. UK two pin plugs don’t have a fuse either so fuse is an irrelevance.
socketman
Scott, Just a guess, but manufacturers may be more concerned to avoid upsetting those who have dedicated shaver sockets dating from before the time that it became normal for shaver sockets to accept non-UK plugs in addition to BS 4573 plugs. No one in the UK will have a shaver socket which does not take BS 4573 plugs, but those with older shaver sockets which do not accept Europlugs would complain if they could no longer buy appliances fitted with BS 4573 plugs.
wavechange
Scott
You cannot plug a Europlug into a UK shaver adapter. Two-pin Europlugs are often connected to appliances that use more than 50 VA, so they would overload shaver points and are therefore best kept out of the UK.
Scott
Wavechange: Sorry to disillusion you but yes you can. Maybe it depends on the design but any that I have encountered accept Europlugs.
wavechange
I apologise if I’m wrong but perhaps the design has changed at some stage. I might be right about the safety issue.
Scott
Wavechange: My shaver adapter seems to be universal. In fact it looks as though it will accept a US flat pin plug, which could certainly be asking for trouble if it requires 115 volts, so from that point of view there could be a safety issue. The Europlug fits securely enough so I don’t imagine there is any safety issue there, especially given the very low current involved.
wavechange
This may be the case with items like a shaver, but the danger comes if people start using products that take more power. If the one amp fuse is insufficient, people may use aluminium foil or a paper clip, in the same way that these have been used elsewhere. It’s amazing what people resort to, which is why we need to keep Europlugs out of the UK.
A shaver point may be protected from overload but protective devices can fail. To be fail safe, you need more than one means of protection, such as used on the door of a microwave oven.
Scott
wavechange: I’m not following your logic here. I don’t see how fitting a Europlug to shavers and toothbrushes would encourage people to use inappropriate appliances in shaver sockets. Nor do I see how fitting Europlugs to shavers and toothbrushes would legitimise Europlugs on other appliances. Shavers and toothbrushes are a special case as the only appliances that can legally be supplied with a two pin plug.
wavechange
If I am not mistaken, you have been promoting purchase of other products with Europlugs.
Scott
That was in a different part of the thread. My latest posting was specifically about shavers and toothbrushes. Please take care about which posting you are replying to and do not try to move the goalposts to suit your argument.
wavechange
Let’s keep this friendly and constructive.
Scott
Indeed but with a correlation between the points made and responses thereto
Scott
My post got cut short. I meant to say – do you see a problem with Europlugs on appliances designed to be used with shaver sockets/adapters given most are universal and shavers and toothbrushes are by their nature designed to be used when travelling which may include travel outside the United Kingdom?
wavechange
I don’t see this as a major problem, though Socketman has made a valid point about using shaver adaptors with two types of plug with different size pins.
If I go abroad, I take a cheap battery-operated shaver and a manual toothbrush.
John
wavechange
Comment:
Many are marked ‘Shavers only’ – As i have pointed out several times already, this is a legal requirement, until it is accepted that other devices can be plugged in safely it wil not change, But seeing as there are only two alternatives, one being to write, “only shavers, electric toothbrushes, whatever, etc.” In which case you might run out of space, and the other to write nothing and risk some fool plugging in their curling tongs or something. I can’t see it changing, as I have already said repeatedly, It’s a question of common sense what you plug into them, and a legal requirement in public establishments to only allow shavers to be plugged in..
wavechange
I’m not an electrician but have seen many examples which demonstrate that people don’t always exercise common sense with mains electricity. Legislation can be changed.
socketman
John, as I posted above “Shaver outlets are required to be marked with the shaver symbol, it is not necessary for them to be marked with any words indicating they are only for use with shavers.” and “There is no regulation which says that shaver outlets may not be used for other appliances”. The “Shavers Only” marking dates back to a time before rechargeable toothbrushes became common and was removed from the standards some years ago. The MK technical literature now describes products to BS EN 61558-2-5 as “Shaver/Toothbrush Supply Units”.
If you know of a law which contradicts what I have said, please provide details.
John
socketman:
There seems to be a lack of ability by some here to read previous responses, or to read them properly, It seems we have to keep repeating ourselves. Also it seems that people here are able to read sentences that were never there, I never made any comment stating anything about what shaver sockets have to be marked with and wavechange has repeatedly (as have others) said that many say “shavers only”, I am more interested in why this phenomenon exists!
I am not aware of any legal issues or requirements regarding markings but if something says “shavers only” and you use another device in it and cause an accident or a fire, it is a perfect get out for the buildings insurers and you could be held liable, which is why many public places have this written on or near the shaver points – to cover themselves, Or put another way, what the manufacturer says and what the law says does not necessarily agree with what the insurers say. Also repeating myself on a fourth matter, you can’t have a long list of items that *are* ok, so it’s easier to limit it to it’s original purpose, the alternative is no warning and idiots putting anything in it.
socketman
John, you wrote “Many are marked ‘Shavers only’ – As i have pointed out several times already, this is a legal requirement, until it is accepted that other devices can be plugged in safely it wil not change,” and now you write “I never made any comment stating anything about what shaver sockets have to be marked with “. What are you really saying?
I shall restate the facts:
The law pertaining to what plugs must be fitted to domestic appliances supplied to UK consumers is the Plugs and Sockets etc. (Safety) Regulations 1994 (S.I. 1994/1768). those regulations include Schedule 1 – Excluded Electrical Devices Relevant to Regulation 4 of Part I. Clause 5 of Schedule 1 states:
“Any non-rewirable or any moulded-on Europlug (that is to say any plug conforming with BS EN 50075) which is designed for the purpose of connecting to a shaver supply unit conforming to BS 3535: Part 1 any electrical shaver, toothbrush or similar appliance; and for the purposes of this paragraph the expression “shaver supply unit” shall have the meaning given to it in BS 3535: Part 1.”
This schedule is relevant in that it clearly defines shavers and toothbrushes as being excluded from the requirement to supply domestic appliances with a BS 1363 plug. However, the references to “BS 3535: Part 1″ are unhelpful as neither that standard (entitled “Safety Isolating Transformers for Industrial and Domestic Purposes”) nor that which superseded it “BS EN 60742 Isolating transformers and safety isolating transformers” makes any reference to shaver supply units!
The appropriate standard is actually BS EN 61558-2-5 “Safety of transformers, reactors, power supply units and combinations thereof – Part 2-5: Particular requirements and tests for transformer for shavers, power supply units for shavers and shaver supply units”. This standard includes the following definitions:
3.1.101
shaver transformer: isolating transformer for fixed installation and with a limited output, designed to supply electric shavers, toothbrushes, and similar appliances rated 50 VA or less used in a bathroom. It supplies only one shaver, or the like, at a time
3.1.102
shaver supply unit: accessory embodying a shaver transformer or a power supply unit incorporating a shaver transformer, and one or more socket outlets allowing the use of only one plug at a time
So we have a situation where the relevant standard defines a shaver supply unit as being designed to supply toothbrushes as well. I imagine that it would be rather difficult for any insurance company to get around that.
Regarding the words “shavers only”, these were removed from BS 4573 (shaver plugs and sockets without transformers) by amendment 4 on 11/8/2004, neither are the words a requirement of BS EN 61558-2-5. Both standards require the shaver symbol to be displayed on the socket front, this is defined as symbol no. 5225 in IEC 60417 as follows: “Electric shaver outlet – To identify socket outlets for electric shavers and similar low-power apparatus.”, it does NOT mean “shavers only”.
On a practical level, and bearing in mind that the minimum allowable rating for a shaver supply unit is 20VA, my ancient (1980s) Braun shaver draws 18VA and 8 Watts, my Braun toothbrush draws 5VA and 1W – clearly a toothbrush is unlikely to stress a 20VA rated shaver supply unit.
John
Socketman, I give up, there are clearly several people in this forum who cannot read prevuios replies and cannot follow who said what, it’s just going round in circles, it was wavechange who said “Many are marked ‘Shavers only” and it was yourself who disagreed with another poster and made the comment “Shaver outlets are required to be marked with the shaver symbol”, rather than wording as someone else said, now you are saying the opposite of what you said earlier!
Any how, here is some info on the subject:
“The purpose of these adaptors is to accept the 2 pin plugs of shavers, they are required to be marked as such.[38] Shaver adaptors must have a 1 A BS 646 fuse. They must accept UK shaver plugs complying with BS 4573 and also Europlugs and American 2 pin plugs”
However having used some of those shaver adapters with Europlugs I wouldn’t recommend it, The 2 pin Europlug pins are thinner at the tips than a UK 2 pin plug and they make poor contact in most (perhaps poorly designed) shaver sockets. Whilst poor contact may not be an issue considering the type of equipment and low current it would cause problems with other devices and higher currents.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europlug
“Equipment sold in the UK with a Europlug must be marked with or accompanied by a warning that it is not suitable for use in a UK mains socket.[4] The exception is that shavers, electric toothbrushes and similar personal hygiene products may be supplied with a Europlug as an alternative to the BS 4573 shaver plug. The Europlug is compatible with most 2-pin UK shaver sockets, but these are rated for a maximum of 0.2A.”
http://www.bis.gov.uk/files/file38628.pdf
socketman
John,
Rather than making claims that “there are clearly several people in this forum who cannot read prevuios replies and cannot follow who said what” I suggest that YOU check more carefully what has been previously posted!
Please do not make false claims such as “now you are saying the opposite of what you said earlier”, this appears to be a reference to my post of 16 May 2013 at 8:48 am where I wrote:
“Shaver outlets are required to be marked with the shaver symbol, it is not necessary for them to be marked with any words indicating they are only for use with shavers.” That is in complete agreement with my later post (18 May 2013 at 11:14 am) above.
Regarding your own contradictory posts, in my post (18 May 2013 at 11:14 am) I quote from two of your posts as follows:
On 16 May 2013 at 10:49 pm you plainly stated “Many are marked ‘Shavers only’ – As i have pointed out several times already, this is a legal requirement, until it is accepted that other devices can be plugged in safely it wil not change,” But, on 17 May 2013 at 11:02 pm you plainly stated that “I never made any comment stating anything about what shaver sockets have to be marked with “.
You would also do well to avoid quoting from Wikipedia, as whilst that is an excellent resource when seeking information, it is not an original and authoritative source of reliable fact. You should only quote from original sources. You do not even bother to attribute to Wikipedia your quote from the Wikipedia article on BS 1363 (beginning “The purpose of these adaptors”) !
Although BS 1363-3 was revised last year (the latest version is BS 1363-3:1995+A4:2012) the clause 7.1 g) still requires that “shaver adaptors shall be marked on the accessible external surface with appropriate words. eg ‘SHAVERS ONLY’ “. However, that is a requirement for adaptors, and as previously stated, sockets to BS 4573 and shaver supply units to BS EN 61558-2-5 need only have the shaver symbol which does NOT mean “shavers only”.
The important thing to understand is that plugging a higher current device into a socket or adaptor intended for shavers and toothbrushes is not illegal, neither is it dangerous (providing that the socket or adaptor conforms to the relevant standards) – it will just not work. Shaver adaptors are protected by fuses. Shaver sockets and shaver supply units are protected by current limiting devices which will prevent higher currents be drawn for anything but a brief period.
I do admit to having some sympathy for those who do not like Europlugs, I feel that there is something wrong with a standard which defines a plug intended to fit into a variety of sockets, none of which were actually designed to accept it. I also recognize that an adaptor which has been used for long periods with a BS 4573 (5mm) plug is likely to make poor contact when subsequently used with a 4mm Europlug. However, they are not illegal.
wavechange
Socketman
I would like to take issue with you about citing information Wikipedia. These Conversations are for use by the general public and not debates between specialists. Providing that the information provided in Wikipedia is correct, clearly written and references to authoritative sources is provided, it is perfectly satisfactory to refer to Wikipedia. The sources of copied information should be cited, as stated in the Commenting Guidelines.
When running workshops with university students I have stressed the need for them to avoid citing Wikipedia and any other resource intended for the general public, and urged them to refer to high quality peer-reviewed literature, much of which is not available to the general public. I strongly recommended that they should read what they intend to cite, rather than just copy references. I also insisted that references should be provided for sources of information. I explained that they might find Google or Google Scholar useful for finding information and introduced them to specialist search tools provided for those working in universities.
One of the problems that we have in this Conversation is that British Standards and Wiring Regulations are not available to the general public, unless they are prepared to pay a lot of money.
Thanks very much for the information you have provided.
socketman
Wavechange,
As you say “Providing that the information provided in Wikipedia is correct, clearly written and references to authoritative sources is provided, it is perfectly satisfactory to refer to Wikipedia.” However, before passing such information garnered from Wikipedia on to others (eg by posting it here) it is necessary to check that it IS correct by referring to the sources provided, an assumption to that effect cannot be made. Having checked the original source it is then sensible for posters to quote that, rather than Wikipedia. Anything else is just hearsay.
I have often heard the complaint that British Standards are not generally available, but they are – by using a public library!
Malcolm R
wavechange, the general public contains specialists and hopefully those specialists involved in these conversations will contribute their specialist knowledge to ensure they are kept factual where possible. BS and EN text is authoritative and preferable to Wikipedia.
I agree that access to BS is not easy, but reference libraries and university libraries (and I presume others) should keep them – don’t know how many – which includes the Wiring Regs (now a BS document). They may now all be accessible online through the library rather than paper copies. Considering that the authors (through specialist committees) of BS documents do it for free they are a horrendous price. Pity they don’t follow Ordnance Survey’s lead in publishing free maps.
wavechange
Socketman and Malcolm
I have told many science students that the best way to achieve lower marks for their essays and reports is to cite Wikipedia and other websites in their essays and other coursework. A major cost of running a university is in providing privileged staff and students with access to high quality peer reviewed literature, most of which is available online these days. The average university has access to a limited range of publications and researchers often rely heavily on the excellent Document Supply services provided by the British Library, though at around £10 for a photocopy of an article, the cost soon adds up. I have supported making documents such as British Standards freely available online for many years. An increasing number of ‘open access’ journals are publicly available, funded by those who do research (via the grants and other sources of funding for the work).
Which? Conversation is for the general public and there is absolutely no requirement to use high quality sources of information. The Terms & Conditions for use of this site ask that contributions should ‘be factually accurate and/or be your genuinely held belief or opinion that is based on facts’. The ‘genuinely held belief or opinion’ would allow someone to post what they heard in the pub or remembered reading in the News of the World, whether this information is correct, understood or even properly remembered. To comply with the Commenting Guidelines, the source of copied information should be identified. Some of the introductions provided by Which? staff are from slightly dubious sources, which can help provoke discussion. Which? Conversation would not work if we all had to be sure of our facts. We are all consumers and we can all contribute. I do not know anyone who contributes to a range of topics and always gets their facts right. There is absolutely no need for anyone to visit their public library before posting a comment. If there are errors on Wikipedia, it is easy to correct them, and I urge those with good knowledge of a subject to do this.
It’s great that we have specialists like Socketman authoritative information in a clear style, avoiding unnecessary technical terms that could confuse some readers. Not all our specialists are so helpful.
Malcolm R
I agree with your comments. I am simply saying that when contributors have facts to contribute, they advance the conversation. Incorrect information should, where possible, be countered.
wavechange
Malcolm
In this Conversation, which has safety implications, I agree with you. In other topics, a good discussion may be a higher priority and discussing popular misconceptions can be of considerable educational value.
The purpose of Which? Conversation appears to be to engage with the public (we are all consumers) and promote discussion of a wide range of topics. I’m very glad to see Socketman’s concern about some of the things we have been discussing. It is important to strive for improvement in legislation.
socketman
” It is important to strive for improvement in legislation.” (Wavechange)
That is a very important point, and one way which Which? conversation users can help is to add their names to the petition (started by an electrician) which seeks to improve the regulation of all devices sold to be inserted into BS 1363 sockets:
epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/36699
socketman
As the above petition does not show as a link, I will try two other versions:
http://tinyurl.com/plugpet
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/36699
wavechange
Thankfully, plug-in night lights in the form of cartoon characters seem to have disappeared from shops. Even if our sockets are safe, I don’t think it is good to encourage children to play with them.
I have asked Maplin to remove socket covers from their display, on the basis that they achieve nothing and they can, if broken or misused, defeat the safety shutter. The sales assistant refused, and declined to pass on my concerns to their head office. I then investigated and found that socket covers are still widely available and that the Electricity Safety Council is waiting for evidence that they are a danger:
http://www.esc.org.uk/public/news-and-campaigns/press-releases/news/article/socket-covers/
Which? members can read an article about socket covers:
http://www.which.co.uk/baby-and-child/child-safety-at-home/reviews-ns/socket-covers/socket-cover-pros-and-cons/
Anyone who has suffered an electric shock as a result of using socket covers should let Which? know.
The plug-in device that I am most concerned about is one that will open the shutters of most BS 1363 sockets, allowing a two-pin Europlug or metal objects to be inserted. I am not aware of these being on sale in the UK, but some unscrupulous trader could import them.
Richard
Others will not be surprised to learn that I have read the petition, and have not put my name to it.
The proponent seeks more regulation not less.
I remain convinced that Joe Public and Mrs Jane Public, his wife, are not as daft and incompetent as some of our superior colleagues here seem to think.
Malcolm R
I don’t think we will realise when purchasing a plug-in device that it may be sub-standard, so don’t agree with the premise (we are not daft and incompetent, but this requires more than common sense). However, I presume such devices should be covered by either BS/ EN standards, and be CE marked. Claiming compliance wrongly should lead to their removal from sale, and possible prosecution via Trading Standards; however, as we have seen elsewhere there seems to be no resources to adequately deal with this. So making their sale illegal (by enshrining them in law) will suffer the same fate – no resource to investigate and follow through. I believe that trade associations and consumer associations are best placed to collate evidence of non-compliances and then pressure the authorities to take action.
wavechange
I have never managed to get Trading Standards to take any action (to the best of my knowledge), and that includes a report of a potentially unsafe item sold by an Internet Trader via Amazon. They are under-resourced and I assume that they take action only over serious issues and those that have been reported a number of times.
I don’t know if it is within the remit of Which? to systematically collect information about hazards, though they are obviously well informed about many safety issues.
socketman
Wavechange mentioned: “The plug-in device that I am most concerned about is one that will open the shutters of most BS 1363 sockets, allowing a two-pin Europlug or metal objects to be inserted. I am not aware of these being on sale in the UK, but some unscrupulous trader could import them.”
These devices were available through eBay last year, I arranged with Trading Standards for them to be removed and hope that they will not be back.
socketman
Wavechange draws attention to the ESC’s head-in-the-sand attitude to socket covers, they have not carried out any investigation of their own, and appear content to wait for evidence of actual suffering. A much more recent, and more relevant conclusion, is that reached by the man in charge of the Wiring Regulations, Mark Coles, Technical Regulations Manager at the IET “Socket-outlets to BS 1363 are the safest in the world and have been since they were first designed in the 1940s. Socket protectors are not regulated for safety, therefore, using a non-standard system to protect a long established safe system is not sensible.” You can read Mr Coles’ article at:
http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-matters/44/wall-socket-protectors.cfm?type=pdf
Another very relevant view of socket covers is that of the leading socket manufacturer, MK. It is too long to reproduce here, you can see it on the home page of FatallyFlawed at:
http://www.fatallyflawed.org.uk
MK point out the importance of only inserting objects which conform to BS 1363 dimensions into sockets, this is what the petition mentioned above is calling for. Sadly the Which? investigation of a few years ago, which Wavechange links to, failed to take into account that issue. Neither socket covers or anything else intended to be inserted into a socket can be tested by simply inserting it into a socket! This is because the design of sockets has many variables, but all are designed to ensure that they work correctly with a plug having the correct dimensions, anything other than the correct dimensions and all bets are of. The behaviour of an incorrectly dimensioned object varies depending on what socket it is inserted into. A socket cover which is difficult to remove from one manufacturers socket will partially eject itself from another manufacturers socket! Of the four socket covers recommended by Which, three (actually all the same design) do just that, the other has pins which are too thick, and too short. No socket covers on the market have the correct dimensions specified in the plug standard, so it is irresponsible of Which? to recommend them at all.
Scott
Anyone who feels strongly about socket covers could look for an advertisement that uses the word ‘safety’ or implies that these items offer any safety benefit then make a complaint to the Advertising Standards Authority asking the ASA to require the advertiser to provide evidence to substantiate the claim made.
MacTavish
What have socket covers got to do with 2 pin plugs?
marcopolo
Teufel (Raumfeld) have just supplied me a Decoderstation 5 it comes with a 12v transformer to power it. The transformer has a 2 pin European socket.
They are insisting that providing me with an adaptor to convert it is inside UK law. I have suggested it is not.
Who is right?
Richard
Teufel or devil and Raumfeld both suggest that you have bought this earth shaking product from Germany, in which case I do not believe that the German vendor has broken any law. The real question, IMHO, is whether you have the skill needed to make use of the device? In many years stationed in Germany, I do not recall any occasion when a serviceman or member of his family suffered by reason of misuse or ignorance of German plugs, sockets or cables.
Our, wonderful, British law echoes what even my late poor mad mother never said, namely, “You can never be too safe, dear!” Me, I think you can.
John
marcopolo
You are correct, I believe i have posted this before:
THE PLUGS AND SOCKETS etc. (SAFETY) REGULATIONS 1994 REQUIRES
most electrical appliances intended for domestic use to be supplied pre-fitted with a standard 3-pin plug that is independently certificated as complying with British Standard BS1363. There are some exceptions to this such as electric cookers intended to be permanently connected to the main wiring in a house.
Items fitted with a non-UK plug (e.g. a 2 pin Europlug) may be supplied provided they have been fitted with an approved 3 pin conversion plug which must enclose the fitted plug and can only be removed with the use of a tool.
Richard
Interesting – just as I hit “send” on my last posting, I think I noticed that this conversation is headed with a picture of an Australian two pin plug! Not the current German excellent “two pin, plus earth connectors” plug, nor the excellently pragmatic Europlug.
Puzzling!
marcopolo
John – thanks had not spotted your previous post. Sounds like I need to await to see what arrives!!
Richard – I think they know about the rules since they supplied one part of the product with a UK plug. The web site was a UK site and there was no conversion of our beautiful Pound into Euros so they would be hard pushed to suggest this was a German site. However it does require substantial skill to stuff two round pins (the devils horns?) into the three pin sockets we use. I have a Christmas tree of wires already – do you think it might make it light up?
Scott
I pointed out the Australian plug on 4 April
John
marcopolo:
In addition, I notice someone made comments about where you bought it from, If it is being sold in the UK market (Online or otherwise) then the law still applies, Foreign countries that sel lto the UK market have to comply with our regulations.
Unfortunately as it seems we make practically nothing in this country any more and most of it is imported from Asia there is a hell of a lot coming in that does not comply with our safety standards and it’s hard to keep up, I get the feeling that with a lot of it no one is too bothered until something goes wrong and people get seriously injured or killed. One example i found was those wall plug power supplies for things like phones, routers etc,. As they have no fused plug they should have a fuse or at least a thermal cut out inside but the one i opened after it went pop didn’t
wavechange
Although there may not be a conventional fuse, there may be a very thin track on the circuit board, which performs the same role. Thermal fuses are often hidden in transformers. These can offer good protection and are widely used by large manufacturers. Obviously they cannot be repaired and cases are often glued together nowadays.
I share your concern about imported goods that may not comply with safety standards.
Richard
While the United States (and, indeed, I think, Spain) assert a general jurisdiction for their courts over anyone anywhere, none of the British jurisdictions have done so, save for restricted provisions covering sex tourism. While the Waterguard, by whatever name they currently use, may stop the import of goods which cannot lawfully be sold in the UK, the exporter sending the goods to the UK is not subject to the UK’s legislation.
If I order goods from a German vendor (as I not infrequently do), then the only legislation applicable to the contract between us, and to the goods that are the subject of the contract is German. Indeed, better yet, the standard conditions of sale of the German vendor will undoubtedly provide not only for German law, but also specify the German Amtsgericht having jurisdiction.
Aliter, of course, if I order German goods from a British importer, when restrictive, nanny knows best dear, British subordinate legislation will be applicable. The problem, of course, when one buys on-line from http://www.wonderful.com is working out who or what one is dealing with! The web site is possibly hosted in Ukraine, and the price is in $US, but in what jurisdiction the incorporated vendor is “resident” is less easy to determine.
Scott
I agree with Richard. I believe there is also extra-territorial jurisdiction for war crimes. I am quite confident there is no extra-territorial jursidiction for breaching consumer regulations. Does John think a UK website has a duty to comply with American law, which would presumably mean supplying appliances rated at 115 Volts, if they notice the despatch address is in the USA?
socketman
Richard and Scott seem to be unaware that Britain is part of the EU. It is of course fashionable to claim that the EU is not in our interests, but it does ensure that traders resident in one EU country, and offering to supply to consumers in another EU country have to obey the regulations protecting consumers in that country. There are a number of EU agreements which ensure this, it is nonsense to claim that foreign based traders within the EU can ignore UK law. I am sure that the situation is rather more complex when dealing with non-EU traders, but Germany is, as far as I understand it, still firmly part of the EU.
Richard
(I frequently sigh when my eldest can’t or won’t walk away from an argument, but here am I in the same situation)
First, there is very little “UK Law” – there is the law of England & Wales, that of Scotland, and that of Northern Ireland, to say nothing of Man, Jersey or Guernsay (?sp).
Next, there is a vital difference between civil and criminal law.
Think an itsy bitsy second – is the German i’m dealing with a sole trader, or is he (it) a GmbH,? There are, of course GmbH’s busy giving value in both England & Wales and here in Scotland, like Lidl (UK) GmbH, which is most certainly amenable to the civil & criminal law of whichever UK jurisdiction the shop where I bought this week’s Sonderangebot is. If, however, I go on line, to buy an electrical appliance from a trader in, say, Verden-an-der-Aller. If the trader is a GmbH, then I am quite clear that although it is certainly bound by the Law of the Federal Republic and/or that of Lower Saxony, which, like as not is stricter than ours, but prescribes a different plug, it is not in any way affected by the UK Statutory Instrument. If the trader is a sole trader, who is daft enough to mention on his blog that he is coming to Socketman’s neck of the woods on holiday, after having sold a non-BS compliant appliance, I think it improbable that the local magistrates’ court would be persuaded that the deed he done in Germany, was now punishable in, say, Droitwich, but I’ll certainly come and spectate.
If our German is sending, not one widget, but a container load, I’m pretty sure that the Excise can seize the whole consignment at the port of import, if its sale in the UK would be criminal.
Would a European Arrest Warrant be effective to seize a German flesh and blood trader in Germany, and bring him to a British Court to answer for the crime of selling an appliance with a moulded Europlug fitted? It is true that “Theft of a chicken” has had a Pole sent back to Poland, but theft is punishable with a max of seven years. I should be very surprised if the warrant would be issued.
socketman
That is just a pile of obfuscation which does not alter the facts one iota, the EC is not an anarchy, there is a rule of law and traders who sell to consumers in another country within the EU are required to abide by the relevant regulations.
Richard
Er, no! You are wrong. “An-archy” the EU is indeed not. In each separate EU member-state the law of that state applies. The EU can and does make legislation which requires the member-states, each in its own way, to make their own law to provide whatever it is in that case that the Union has decided needs to be done. What the Union does not do is to make the law of one state applicable in other states.