Is now the time to ditch imperial and go fully metric?
In a jubilee year it seems almost treasonous to suggest it, but a pro-metric site has calculated that a ‘metric majority’ has been attained. So, with most Brits brought up metric, is now the time to ditch miles and pounds?
In figures from the 2011 census released this week, most people in England and Wales (and, assuming the demographics and education are similar, the whole of the UK) were schooled in metric, not imperial. Does it make sense to switch?
Many are now preparing to drive in km/h on holiday, and at the Olympic Games next week athletes compete in 100m events, high jumps are measured to the centimetre and boxers square off against their kilogram peers – only the marathon has an imperial hangover, but at 26 miles and 385 yards that makes no sense in any unit.
Tons and tonnes of arguments
Last year we asked if you’d prefer to buy fruit by the pound and most of the metrification arguments have been discussed before. Which? doesn’t have an official line, but the (very) general view of most arguments is that metric is more widely used, easier to understand and Ireland and Australia’s switching hasn’t caused problems.
Opponents, on the other hand, say that other countries (including the US) still don’t use metric and that imperial measurement is part of our heritage. Reader Adel said:
‘Imperial measurements are part of British culture and life! Are the USA going to be the last defenders of Anglo-Saxon heritage as they are the last English speaking country to use lbs, oz, pints and gallons?’
However, Marcus stated:
‘Imperial measurements are part of British culture and life, even though they were introduced by foreign invaders. The class system and the reluctance to speak foreign languages is also part of British culture and life so not all traditions are good traditions.’
New rules, new rulers
There were also concerns that older Britons may have difficulties adjusting. The Master told us:
‘I was born in 1970 – so mainly taught metric at school […] I can’t be described as ‘stupid’ – but I find metric so confusing. Imperial is so simple. With metric you get lots of very similar names that refer to multiple/divisions in the 10s or 100s or 1000s etc.’
By contrast, Kurt, born in 1948, claims he has used metric since 1970:
‘The metric system is elegantly simple and easy to use which is why the world uses it. Like the pounds, shillings and pence of my youth I find imperial units cumbersome and nonsensical and cannot believe that anyone would find them simpler.’
Cliff Steele contributes to the schooling debate, saying:
‘Would an English teacher see nothing wrong with young people using bad grammar because it’s part of everyday life? Running two systems of measurement is ridiculous. The sooner all imperial measurements are taught in history classes instead of maths classes the better.’
As for me, I see no harm in going metric on our roads and elsewhere… but I want to have my pound-cake and eat it by keeping some of the quirks, mainly the pint of beer. There’s nothing unusual about this, even big changes aren’t all done at once – for example, US revolutionaries, those anti-monarchists, apparently continued to toast the king long after declaring their independence from him.
So, perhaps we’ll see the day when we toast metric roads with a hearty pint?
Should Britain go fully metric?
Yes - metric all the way (44%, 297 Votes)
No - we should keep the current mix of metric and imperial (34%, 228 Votes)
Neither - there should be even more imperial measurements (22%, 141 Votes)
Total Voters: 675
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Cliff
@Peter Hargreaves,
All sport played at international level uses SI units because they are universally understood. Remember the Olympics? The Marathon is a 42.195 km race to everyone in the world. Only in the UK and the USA is it referred to as anything else.
From Wikipedia: “Bicycle rims and tires came in many different types and sizes before efforts were made to standardize and improve wheel/tire compatibility. The International Organization for Standardization (ISO) and the European Tyre and Rim Technical Organisation (ETRTO) define a modern, unambiguous system of sizing designations and measurement procedures for different types of tires and rims in international standard ISO 5775. For example: For wired-edge tires the ISO designation lists the width of the inflated tire and the diameter with which the tire sits on the rim, both in millimeters and separated by a hyphen: 37-622.” Tire pressure has been given in bars for years. If you don’t use it that’s your problem.
Have you ever noticed that food using archaic measurements in the name such as foot-long sub, quarter-pounder, and six-inch pizza is always junk-food? Quite appropriate really. Junk measurements for junk-food. Any pizzeria that knows the difference between Fiori di Latte and Fiori di Bufala wouldn’t dream of describing their product in such a way. Pizza al metro (pizza by the metre) however, is perfectly acceptable.
Peter Hargreaves
I was not aware that the marathon is a 42.195 km race, this is quite a mouthful to say and is probably the reason we call it the 26-mile race. With regards to junk measurements for junk food I quite agree this is junk food, but a sirloin steak ordered at a restaurant is measured in ounces. Hardly junk food. As for junk measurements one of the greatest inventions this country gave the world was the steam engine, a unique product of the industrial revolution and the age of the railways, developed using the imperial measurement. In the mold lofts of the great shipyards our greatest ships ever to sail the oceans were drawn to scale using the imperial system of measurement. I would prefer to use the word inappropriate for certain applications rather than the word junk.
I think I should clarify my position on this; I am neither pro metric nor imperial. I am merely trying to highlight the pitfalls of adopting one system. But I would however like to dispel some of the myths perpetrated by the UK Metric Association. One of these points states that the whole world has gone metric except Britain and the United States. This is not correct. The whole world uses imperial for the measurement of time and angles. If you want to go completely metric then you would have dig out the metric clock from the archives. But the last time the metric system for time was introduced it proved extremely unpopular. To say that the whole of Europe has gone metric is also incorrect. Imperial measurements are still used for wheels, pipe sizes, screw threads, paintbrushes, electronic circuit boards, screen sizes and screen resolution in LPI (lines per inch) and DPI (dots per inch). Australia, which went metric in 1974, will still unofficially measure their height in feet and inches and a babies weight at birth is still announced in pounds and ounces.
In this country for trade in general, for health & safety law, the medical profession and the post office we use metric. Increasingly in hi tech industries this is where the metric system is important. One of the best ways to highlight this is in drill sizes, which are now with a few exceptions given in millimetres. Using fractions of an inch is a nightmare. Computer keyboards do not show these and most typefaces do not support extended fractions. On the other hand saw teeth for straight saws not circular saws are measured in imperial TPI (teeth per inch). I cannot see how a metric equivalent would work here. In the printing industry the A series of paper measurements is much better than the imperial system of double crown, double elephant and double foolscap etc. This is essential with desktop publishing and digital printing. But photographic prints and boxes sizes are still described in imperial. Why? Because it is easier to say 6 x 4, 7 x 5 or 12 x 9 than it is 150mm x 100mm. It is ease of use and the fact that precision is not essential. Builders, plumbers and carpentry tools are generally given in imperial. A carpenter will order rough sawn timber and describe it as 4 x 2 inches. As timber is not a stable substrate it will expand with moisture and contract with heat what is the point in supplying this to the nearest millimetre. It is again ease of use and using a measure appropriate to the situation. As I stated earlier even in the hospitals babies weight are announced in imperial and for those mothers who choose to bottle-feed. When given a choice they will generally measure out in 2, 4, 6, 8 ounce rather than say 240 millilitres, which is too long winded. In certain situations the imperial and metric system can work in harmony. For all those model railway enthusiasts OO scale is 4mm to the foot and O scale is 6.9 mm to the foot. In paper and film reels the width is millimetres, while the length is measured in feet.
Having worked in industry for nearly forty years using various measurements I have learnt to embrace both systems. What is good for one profession will not be suitable to another. The debate today seems to be centered on road signs, which is irrelevant no one is going to sue if a sign is several inches out or should I say millimetres. Health and safety issues are covered with bridge signs shown in both imperial and metric. In this world there are two systems of measurement, if you want one system for everything in the world, are we to adopt either the dollar or the euro and ask the French to start speaking English? I think not. For those who want to adopt only the metric system, the metric clock would look good in the lounge as a novelty to amuse guests rather than for any practical use.
wavechange
I think a little commonsense is called for. For example, the Marathon can be referred to as 42 km rather than giving the distance to five significant figures. The exact distance is only needed when the route is planned and in the official information about the race.
It’s time to let younger people get on and complete metrication, for the excellent reasons presented in this and the previous Conversation.
swanseasteve
Peter claims:
“I was not aware that the marathon is a 42.195 km race, this is quite a mouthful to say and is probably the reason we call it the 26-mile race.”
Oh dear. First he reveals he didn’t know what the length was in metres, then shows he doesn’t know what it is in miles either. If the BBC would kindly shut up about the distance in miles perhaps everyone would get a chance to find out what the real distance is – and more usefully, appreciate just *what* a distance it is.
( FYI, Peter, it would be a 26 mile 385 yards race if expressed in imperial. It’s an arbitrary distance – expressed in either system. )
Mo Farrah has been (slightly) criticised recently for electing to run “only” a half-marathon at the London Marathon this year. That’s (obviously) 21.1km when you know it in metric, and instantly you can see the comparison between that distance and the 10km track races that we’re used to seeing Mo Farrah running. In other words, a half-marathon is a tad over twice the distance he’s currently used-to. I can quite understand his reluctance to run a full marathon (over four times what he’s used-to).
But whilst the British public are robbed of common knowledge of the proper (metric) race distance, it isn’t possible to spot that relationship with the 10,000m.
Dark-ages BBC commentary practices mess it up for us again. As usual.
Back to Athens 2004: when Paula Radcliffe collapsed pretty much into the “36km” sign, the BBC commentary team (to a man) flapped about uselessly, none of them was sure where she was in the race, or how far she had to go. Idiots! The “36km” sign was the clue, guys! She (obviously) still had 6.2km to go! How could ANYONE not know that?? What did they expect – the Greeks would magically have provided distance signs in miles??
Dinosaurs. We pay our licence fees to dinosaurs.
swanseasteve
Peter Hargreaves (above) says:
“[UK Metric Association] states that the whole world has gone metric except Britain and the United States. This is not correct. The whole world uses imperial for the measurement of time and angles. If you want to go completely metric then you would have dig out the metric clock from the archives. But the last time the metric system for time was introduced it proved extremely unpopular.”
Oh come on – that’s bordering on trolling!
No-one (including Britain) uses “imperial” for measurement of time and angles. We use a system originated by the Babylonians thousands of years before the Imperial System was introduced (in 1824).
The important thing about time and angles is that we (the whole world) use the SAME system. If you’re in Tokyo airport but don’t speak a word of Japanese, a glance at a clock will still tell you what the time is.
Time is (and always has been) part of the metric system. The SI unit of time is the second. You’ll have heard of milliseconds, microseconds and nanoseconds I’m sure. Well, kiloseconds and megaseconds exist too, though more often longer time-periods do get expressed in hours and minutes.
Your talk about “the metric clock” is a pointless distraction, Peter. You’ve gone and confused “metric” with “decimal” as so many people do. True, the French Revolutionaries had a go at introducing a decimal clock and calendar. It was indeed unworkable, and they dumped it. But every second of every day that you’ve lived, you’ve lived and used metric time.
The second: It’s the S.I unit of time. Get used to it!
Peter Hargreaves
I think I need to clarify my position on this again. I am neither pro metric nor imperial. At work I use the metric system the whole time, but in my leisure time I tend to favour imperial for maintenance jobs around the house, leisure and sport. For engineering and science, to the postal and printing industries we already use the metric system anyway, so this not a problem for international trade. What I am trying to convey here is a balanced view from two sides of the coin. The construction industry for example favour imperial, in general most carpentry, building and plumbing tools are based on imperial dimensions. Boys at school playing football, cricket and golf use yard feet and inches and for girls who take up horse riding the jumps are measured in feet, inches and hands. What about the little old lady growing vegetables on her allotment, she has two and a half rods her friend has five rods. There are only two sizes, she pays a nominal fee and is not running a business. These people are not trading, why do they need to have this down to the nearest millimetre, they are using a system that is fit for their requirements.
With regards to the rest of the world going metric, lets look at a country like Australia that supposedly went completely metric in 1988, in the words of the government of the time “to simplify and unify the teaching of mathematics and science”. I have just received some photographs from Australia in imperial sizes. Scuba diving uses metric measurement, but sky diving uses imperial. A car is measured in metric, a trailer in imperial. They cannot even bring themselves to use metric names. Order a beer and you get variety of names a pot, stubby, schooner, middie, pony, butcher in a variety of different sizes depending as well in which state you are. Kilometres are called klicks or kays and to cap it all here is a country that still operates two railway gauge sizes. At least in Britain when you order a pint you know what you are getting. Can you imagine anyone going into a pub buying a round and asking for six 568 millitres of beer. How many people I wonder actually order petrol in litres, most people I know will say 10 pounds worth or fill up the tank. It is better to be able to use two systems than to pretend that you have gone completely metric. It is all about using the right system for the occasion. Keep science and engineering separate from people’s leisure time; confusion only reigns when you try to mix the two.
When a confused child comes up to me and asks “ why did George Stephenson use 1435 millimetres for his railway gauge” I know that something is seriously wrong with our teaching of measurements in school. At least a government minister has had the courage to tackle this head on. Now we can begin to give primary school children a basic understanding of both systems, before concentrating their minds on the metric system if for example they choose a career in science, engineering or mathematics. These are not rubbish, but just realistic observations in my dealings with people from all walks of life and backgrounds over the years.
Cliff
Peter Hargreaves,
I work in the building industry (architecture) and the the only time I see imperial dimensions is on drawings produced before 1972. Because I’m the oldest person in the office (64 years old) it is usually my job to convert the strings of feet, inches and fractions of inches on these old drawings to millimetres in order to produce new drawings which are, of course, in SI units. What a laborious and time-wasting exercise this is. The old architectural drawings are bad but the old survey drawings are worse. Working out the angle between 180 degrees 41 minutes and 25 seconds and 45 degrees 30 minutes and 25 seconds, for instance, is a nightmare. Not to mention yards,chains and acres etc.
I don’t know what measurements boys and girls use in their games because my children are grown up now but I think it’s sad that if they don’t use the same measurements used by boys and girls all over the world because that will put them at a distinct disadvantage when they encounter children from other countries and try to play with them.
As far as the little old ladies and their allotments: I really don’t think many little old ladies, or any one else for that matter, would even think of a rod as a form of measurement
Australia: I spend most of my time in Melbourne, Australia and have done for the last 22 years.The Australian government did an infinitely better job of the changeover to SI units than the many British governments since 1965 did and the country is about 99% metric.Apart from trailer sizes, ( I wasn’t aware of this one) and sky diving, metric measurements are the norm. Australia is a good country but it’s not perfect. Many Australians may call Kilometres Ks or mistakenly pronounce them Klometres but its an Australian thing to use slang and change words and at least everyone is numerate, using the same system and aware how many metres there are say, 3.5 km. I don’t think many Brits could tell you off the top of their head how many yards, feet or metres there are in 3.5 miles.
Imagine if the British Government had taken the same laissez-faire approach to the changeover from pounds shillings and pence to decimal currency as they did to SI units. Had they not made the changeover mandatory half of the media and the general public would still be giving prices in guineas and shillings and the other half would be using pence. This confusion would be great for unscrupulous traders but bad for everyone else.
crazytrucker
I’m afraid my miniscule and worn out addled old brain just cannot cope with metric I convert as best I can, a kilo is 2.2 lbs, a pint is around half a litre, as for measurements forget it I still work in feet and inches, the only metric measurement that sticks in my brain is 25.4 millimetres to an inch, and the reason I know this is from my 20 odd years in engineering as a toolmaker, and even when I left the industry in ’88 we were still working in Imperial, and during my apprenticeship in the 60′s the maths for the first year mainly involved converting metric to Imperial and vice-versa yet at our work we were working in good old Imperial, and I can cope with that and still do, I was brought up with it I know and understand it, metric I do not!
KEEP BOTH, at least until the deaths of the whole of my generation that were brought with Imperial whose brains still work dare I say it in English!
Cliff
Sorry to say it crazy trucker, but it’s because of people with a mindset similar to yours that British industry is in the sorry state it is in today. The UK was was once a huge manufacturing centre exporting to the world but refusal to embrace the system of measurement used by over 95% of the world and a lack of adequately training the workforce to use it properly is one of the main reasons for the death of British industry. The fact that you were still using “good old imperial measurements” in ’88 is a sad indictment of the lack of foresight of management and the reason you don’t see many toolmakers in Britain any more. How dare you condemn future generations of workers to remain uncompetitive because your “worn out addled old brain” cannot cope!
Malcolm R
The decline of British industry was little to do with the measuring system – my long time in industry used metric. It was more to do with obsolescence of manufacturing methods, lack of investment, not capitalising on innovation, unsupportive government for other than vanity projects and restrictive practises. Let’s stop slagging people off for their personal views – as has been said before, what we choose to do privately is our own affair, what we do in industry is a collective matter.
michduncg
But the point is that the system of weights and measures, like the language of a country or its currency, should be one single system. The price for being people being able to do what they like ‘in private’ is that the old Imperial system is having to be reintroduced in schools. At what cost? New text books. Teaching training and notes. And diverting from the important matters that they should be being taught. Also so that some people can exercise their so called right to use an old and outdated system. Isn’t it strange that the countries with the highest standards of education all use metric. http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading. Look how far behind we, along with the US. And yet in Science, where SI units are always used, we do really well. So as a society we saddle our kids with the need to be able to talk in imperial measurements. Its daft. pure and simple. Just start using metric and thats it. I am in 97kg, I have lost 7 kgs since Christmas, and I am 1.9 m tall. My living room is 5m x 4m
Seares
Why do people think it’s necessary to convert from metric back to the old imperial? Just think in metric in the first place: e.g. Bag of sugar = 1 kg, bottle of wine = 750 ml, my weight = 67 kg, my height = 172 cm. Big can of paint 5 litres, Fom home to the shops = 500 m. and so on. You soon get used to it, The local college had the door measurements, the force needed to push them open, the area of the rooms, etc stencilled in metric on them, so no need for old measurements.to see how big, far, heavy, etc. Think Metric- it’s 1000 times simpler!
wavechange
I don’t care whether individuals use metric or imperial measures in our personal lives but perhaps if there had been some pressure to stop using imperial measures and complete metrication this issue would not have dragged on for so long. Thanks to these discussions I have decided not to use any imperial measures in conversation unless the person I’m speaking to cannot cope with the metric system.
wavechange
I went into a Subway sandwich shop recently and when asked whether I wanted a Footlong or 6-inch ‘Sub’ I replied “150 mm please”. It raised a smile.
crazytrucker
“Cliff
Sorry to say it crazy trucker, but it’s because of people with a mindset similar to yours that British industry is in the sorry state it is in today. The UK was was once a huge manufacturing centre exporting to the world but refusal to embrace the system of measurement used by over 95% of the world and a lack of adequately training the workforce to use it properly is one of the main reasons for the death of British industry. The fact that you were still using “good old imperial measurements” in ’88 is a sad indictment of the lack of foresight of management and the reason you don’t see many toolmakers in Britain any more. How dare you condemn future generations of workers to remain uncompetitive because your “worn out addled old brain” cannot cope!”
Blow me, so I’m responsible for the decline of British Industry because the Marconi Company and English Electric Valve Co Ltd was still using the Imperial system.
And please explain ” How dare you condemn future generations of workers to remain uncompetitive because your “worn out addled old brain” cannot cope!”
I wasn’t aware I was condemning anybody let alone a future generation of uncompetitive workers!
All I tried to say was that most of my generation, I’m 62, or I should say people of my age I’m aquainted with still think and work in Imperial, lest I condemn another generation. I refuse to embrace the metric system because my ‘worn out and addled brain’ just refuses to do so, and also because it’s my right to not think in metric!
Whether or not because of my refusal to embrace the Metric system will make this country any worse off is highly unlikely, if we do sink into oblivion it will be all my fault for which I apologise in advance, though ‘Call Me Dave’ and his cronies are managing perfectly well without any help from myself and my pals.
And when I was driving for a living I always pulled a 45 foot trailer, I have no idea what that is in metric, 13 something I think, and 13′ 8″ high, and when I was pulling containers they were and still are 20 feet, 40 feet and 45 feet long and 8′ 6″ or 9′ 6″ high!
Malcolm R
michdungc – there are many languages spoken in this country between private individuals. You miss the point (I hope) that you, nor anyone, should not dictate what people choose to think or do in their own private lives. That is purely up to them, for whatever reason they may have. The issue here should be about the use of metric as a public measure – primarily industry and trade – where as far as I can see it is. Teaching encompasses more than just utilitarian material – it is why history for example is taught.
michduncg
Yes, you are free to do whatever you want in your own private life. But teachers should not be having to teach about an antiquated and largely redundant method of measurement. Margaret Thatcher herself realised that when she was Education Secretary and took Imperial off the agenda. If people want to learn about such things then they can do so in history or at a night class when they are older.
Paul Sweet
You need to correct some of your information as it pertains to Australia: Australia did not go metric in 1974; Australia was technically fully converted to metric by 1988; however, for all practical purposes it was considered by the Metric Conversion Board that Australia was metricated by 1980. It is also quite untrue that newborn babies’ weights are given in pounds and ounces in Australia. Newborn babies’ weights are given in metric and metric only, that is in kilograms, by all hospitals in Australia. And as far as using feet and inches for height in Australia is concerned, there was some peripheral use of feet and inches for height used by older Australians after metric conversion and this was to be expected as this was still a period of transition. As the head of the Metric Conversion Board said in 1981 when the Board was wound up, it will take at least a full generation of metric education and use for some of the old imperial units to fall into disuse and be completely replaced by their metric equivalents. And it is now a full generation since full metrication was achieved for all practical purposes and with this the practice of using feet and inches for height has considerably died out and is certainly not used by anyone under the age of 40, or even 45. I’m 54 years old and as far as my height is concerned it is now, and always will be, 1.86 m.